Druidry and mental health

[Aphritha]

My only issue with medication is sometimes its prescribed when not appropriate. I had a friend that was put on antidepressants within a week of a relative dieing...she was still going through the natural grieving process! She was young and low income. I felt her doctors tended to brush her under the rug.
There was also another occasion in which I was prescribed an antidepressant for panic attacks, and was told it was just because they couldn't figure out what else to give me. Needless to say, it didn't work, and actually ended up causing more panic attacks... Its better to take nothing than something that's not appropriate.
There have been other times that I found it necessary to try it, though. I was prescribed a different medication(by another doctor) for the panic attacks that did help. However, I am in a much better walk of life now, and my body is rejecting them, reminding me I no longer need these and I'm fine on my own. So yes, I suppose it is all about us listening to our own bodies/minds.

[Aigeann]

Please know that I am not on a soapbox. It's just what the docs did for your friend is not necessarily applicable to you. Were you there when she talked to the doc? My meaning is, there may be some pieces of information that you do not have that may have influenced why the medication did not work or made you feel they were pushing aside her symptoms, when they may not have been.

That said, I think every -body- is different and you have to use trial and error to find what healer/healing method works for that specific -body-.

Blessings and prayers, Aigeann

[Kima]

On the website I've previously mentioned, I found a text by Holger Kalweit that will be of interest to other druids: " When Insanity in a Blessing: The Message of Shamanism" http://www.theicarusproject.net/files/KalweitInsanityBlessing.PDF

We might properly ask whether the sickness [...] should be seen as a by-product of a person's spiritual growth, of a process aimed at revealing to the sick initiate the heavenly - respectivly, his inner - world.

[Al Hakim]

How to administer antidepressive drugs is a science in itself. In fact, nobody can foresee possible side-effects. Why should a chemical substance that is designed to affect this or that nucleus in your brain stop affecting adjacent centers that have different tasks?
So, most what we know about the effect of anti-depressants stems from experimental research: Try and error.
So far to the problems concerning third persons. If you yourself have suffered from a mental illness and have been healed by drugs be aware that your positive feeling can just be another face of your disease rather than a full recovery. In such an euphoric mood many patients tend to stop taking their medicines because they feel healthy. But they are not - and they will be in for the next depression soon.
As a consequence: Mental problems are caused by a malfunction of the underlying organ - the brain. That implies: Patients can not rely on what they consider as normal or not. (I hope the so-called healthy individuals can) They have to rely on other opinions, those of psychiatrists. We all hope that they are taking their business and responsibility serious.

[ideagirl]

I don't think there is an all encompassing answer as we are all unique and one person's trigger to anxiety and depression will be totally different to the next. Some people have naturally higher coping capabilties, so what could be trivial to you or I is a major challenge for them and vice versa.

The triggers and thresholds are different, but I don't think the solutions are that different. For most people, exercise, eating good food (or at least avoiding the worst) and getting REGULAR adequate sleep will help. They won't help all people to the same degree, but they will help; and they're harder to achieve for some than for others, but if achieved, they will help. And also for most people with depression or anxiety, cognitive therapy and (in my and friends' experience) acupuncture and Chinese herbal medicine will help. Some people need more help than they can get from these solutions, but the point remains that just these solutions alone will improve the situation. Human beings aren't all that different in some respects. Everyone feels better after a good meal, a nice hot bath and a good sleep.

[Heddwen]

How to administer antidepressive drugs is a science in itself. In fact, nobody can foresee possible side-effects. Why should a chemical substance that is designed to affect this or that nucleus in your brain stop affecting adjacent centers that have different tasks?
So, most what we know about the effect of anti-depressants stems from experimental research: Try and error.
So far to the problems concerning third persons. If you yourself have suffered from a mental illness and have been healed by drugs be aware that your positive feeling can just be another face of your disease rather than a full recovery. In such an euphoric mood many patients tend to stop taking their medicines because they feel healthy. But they are not - and they will be in for the next depression soon.
As a consequence: Mental problems are caused by a malfunction of the underlying organ - the brain. That implies: Patients can not rely on what they consider as normal or not. (I hope the so-called healthy individuals can) They have to rely on other opinions, those of psychiatrists. We all hope that they are taking their business and responsibility serious.

I guess it would depend what they're diagnosis was. Were you thinking of bipolar here?

Some people feel better because they are moving towards good health

[andromeda]

I had relatives that suffered from mental health problems. The bottom line is that pill for mental problems are like pain killers, they mask the problem momentarily and they have very nasty side effects, some of the irreversible

The mind is not in the brain so what the pills do is stopping the response that the mind triggers in the brain. In many cases they fail. The other problem is habituation. The body only responds to this "masking" pills for about 3 months. Within that time the body "amps" the cries for help and doses have to be adjusted upwards. Exactly the same problem that happens if one takes painkillers regularly

But, saying all that. If some treatments are given for short periods of time (max a month) when the person is experiencing heightened trauma, they could be potentially helpfull at giving few days of breathing space

The proble we experience in the western world is two fold. Doctors want to keep their patients happy no matter the cost and we are habituated to have fast results and can't wistand grief

Our society prefers quick pleasure, that is the biggest handicap and perhaps the reason why so many people are falling into the stress/mental illness category. Like with pills, if the body gets habituated to regular doses of doppamine, the dose has to be increased regularly. Hence it is easy to fall into drug supplementation when life does not turn to be what society expects from us

We are not taught in school how to change our beliefs, change our habits or how to be resilient and have courage. These ancient values have been superceded by a consumer mentality that is not sustainable at planetary or personal level

I find this video about Allan Watts ideas a very good summary http://youtu.be/VALLiF18tvM

[Kima]

I had relatives that suffered from mental health problems. The bottom line is that pill for mental problems are like pain killers, they mask the problem momentarily and they have very nasty side effects, some of the irreversible

I agree. In my experience, depression put me through extremely hard times but had a beneficial outcome. It was a huge sweeping force pushing me towards deep change. I faced the situation med-free and I don't regret it, in spite of the time it took before I felt basically functional again.

[Aphritha]

Ironically, I read this post while going through a panic attack...
They suck, but I'm used to them at this point. My chest hurts and I can't stop shaking, but I'm well aware of what's going on and I know I'm not going to die(alot of people who aren't used to them claim to feel like they're having a heart attack and are going to die). I've got medicine I can take for them, but being as its not a daily thing anymore, I find they do more harm than good. I can take a pill and feel mentally better within an hour, but then I risk losing my lunch and will certainly be dizzy and have to lay down for a good while.
I wonder if part of the reason we have such a frequency of mental illness nowadays(I think I know more people who are or are 'supposed to' be on meds than who aren't)is because of a lack of support for one another.(At least, as far as American culture goes. I can't speak for other countries) A very good friend of mine is from Mali Africa and say "back home we don't have this depression, and panic attacks". They're also alot more supportive there, she tells me. If you have a child, someone in your family will certainly watch it for you if you need to go to work/the doctor/the store/etc. If you are thirsty, you can knock on someone's door and request a drink, and you will get one. If you are eating alone somewhere, someone will join you. I can just imagine doing that here...probably end in pepper spray. We have charities and programs to help when you're hungry, or underprivledged, but sad? If you're sad, go take a pill and watch some TV, you'll feel better shortly. We don't take time to deal with sad. Or stressed. Or any sort of affliction that exists in the mind...Ironically, this sometimes ends in people coming after the physical programs...the depression kicks in and the job suffers, resulting in less cash, resulting in seeking out programs to help with the bills....

[Ravenari]

If some treatments are given for short periods of time (max a month) when the person is experiencing heightened trauma, they could be potentially helpfull at giving few days of breathing space

Keep in mind that complex anti-depressants and anti-anxiolytics like many in the SSRI and SNRI family actually take a minimum of two weeks, and sometimes around two months to actually even begin to see a therapeutic effect. They're very different to drugs like valium or prozac which are designed to be taken daily for an immediate response. Some people experience 'heightened trauma' for years. It can be called Continuous Traumatic Stress Disorder, or simply be a case of chronic PTSD. I go through a fight/flight response once a night, and have done so for 23 years. It's hell on my nervous system.

I know for myself, back when I was on anti-depressants, it was at least six weeks before the side effects planed out and I was able to experience any other positive benefits. That was congruent with what the medical information said. Which would rule out the 'max a month' rule. In that case, it's good to know a drug's uptake and half-life, since a lot of the newer drugs actually take some time to kick in. Even St. John's Wort, a natural anti-depressant (with its own bevy of intense side effects, some of which mean I can't take it), is recommended that one takes therapeutic dosages for at least two to three months before any significant effects are noticed.

As for drugs, I think it depends on the nature and severity of the mental illness. Some mental illnesses are more chemical than environmental, or simply more severe than the average 'mental illness,' and in that case, a person may need to be on drugs for the rest of their lives, and that's okay. It might be tempting to say 'don't use them as a crutch,' but sometimes that's just as inappropriate as telling a person who needs a cane for the rest of their lives to not use a cane 'as a crutch.' Sometimes they are simply necessary.

In the case of issues which respond significantly to therapy; then anti-depressants, psychotics and anxiolytics should (with the caveat that I am of course not a doctor, just an armchair researcher) be taken in conjunction with therapy for those who want this, and never be expected to fix the condition overall. That said, most professionals do know this. It tends to be General Practicioners (or the equivalent in your country) who have no psychological training, who generally suggest only medication and nothing else. Even psychiatrists, who can prescribe, generally understand the power of medication *and* therapy. And these days it's possible to find counsellors and psychologists who will not recommend medication, and who will be very flexible with clients who cannot - for varying reasons - take medication (like myself). Outside of short-form therapy (which is the most 'quick fix' form of therapy you can find), therapy is - in the hands of a good and competent therapist - designed to help and work in accordance with the client's wishes, and not the other way around. This is how I can see a specialist in Expressive Therapies, that focuses on narrative therapy, symbol play, CBT, sandplay etc., where there is no obligation for me to take drugs, and an acceptance of the importance of learning increased resilience towards unreasonable levels of pain that have likely permanently damaged my sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems. This is a specialist who is also spiritual, open to working at one's own pace, and doesn't rush.

It is important not to generalise western medicine and miss out on a lot of the important work being done, perhaps not 'globally', but certainly among certain practicioners in different western countries. There are General Practicioners who will remind one that grief is natural and normal. There are psychiatrists who will say 'I want you to try some time without X drug, so we can work on your emotions now that you've found some functionality again.' There are counsellors who will say 'I believe in your spirituality and your beliefs in the otherworlds and want this to be a part of your journey.' They are not found outside of the western medicine paradigm, but within it.

I'd also like to add that a lot of SSRI antidepressants aren't 'quick pleasure.' They don't make many people feel happy. It's not like popping a valium (and even that is experienced differently by everyone). It takes weeks and weeks to see any effect and by then, all you may notice is that after a depressive episode, you may just bounce back a little faster. Or that, alternatively, you don't sink *as low.* Happiness was never a side effect of my anti-depressants, nor was contentment, peace, or a sense of wellbeing. I had to look for those things. And research indicates that many people on SSRIs and SNRIs are in a similar boat. They may experience fewer clinical panic attacks, but they may not find themselves 'happy' every day. This is why it can be very difficult to get addicted to SSRIs. Though the withdrawals associated with coming off them are difficult (because of symptoms like shaking, dry mouth, brain zaps and others), it's rarely because a person is desperate to chase the next 'high.'

Finally, back to my 'let people who need crutches to be functional, have their crutches,' argument... I don't like anti-depressants for myself, but I do see that some people may need to be on them for the rest of their lives. But that's like me saying 'I don't need crutches because I don't need crutches; my leg will heal without them... but some people need crutches because of permanent issues that cannot be fixed, and simply need support.' Mental illness in some respects is no different to physical illnesses; a person on the same dosage of Effexor for their lives should not be policed or feel like they are being judged by those of us who do not need the same crutch. Just because you cannot see the issue in someone's brain as you could see a limp or twisted leg, does not mean it is not there, or suddenly disappears, or is in any way comparable to anyone else's problems. Sure, there are problems with over-medication, but that doesn't automatically invalidate people who are medicated, nor does it invalidate those who need permanent supportive medication.

I'd also like to add to Aphritha that Africa was one of the collectives of nations that coined the term 'Continuous Traumatic Stress Disorder' (or CTSD) to indicate levels of trauma so high, they transcended 'regular' PTSD, and represented a more severe form of post-trauma. That term was introduced by a South African researcher Gillian Straker in 1986. And that Africa was also the place that coined the term 're-rape' - a term to suggest rape that happened so often, and so frequently (i.e. on a daily basis for months on end), that the term 'rape' in the singular was no longer adequate. The academic research suggests that not only do panic attacks and depression happen regularly and with dire consequences in Africa (though it is under-reported due to stigma), but that it may even be happening on a more serious and severe level than it is happening in Australia, the UK, or America. There might be communities that have escaped this and experience much more genuine support; but those communities can be found in western countries too.

[Heddwen]

I think thats important to define mental illness( if you can)There is a whole world of difference between 'I'm feeling depressed this week' to being diagnosed with clinical depression. In some cases drugs may not be relevent and in other cases they will be an essential part of the treatment necessary for recovery.

[andromeda]

Ironically, I read this post while going through a panic attack...
They suck, but I'm used to them at this point. My chest hurts and I can't stop shaking, but I'm well aware of what's going on and I know I'm not going to die(alot of people who aren't used to them claim to feel like they're having a heart attack and are going to die). I've got medicine I can take for them, but being as its not a daily thing anymore, I find they do more harm than good. I can take a pill and feel mentally better within an hour, but then I risk losing my lunch and will certainly be dizzy and have to lay down for a good while.
I wonder if part of the reason we have such a frequency of mental illness nowadays(I think I know more people who are or are 'supposed to' be on meds than who aren't)is because of a lack of support for one another.(At least, as far as American culture goes. I can't speak for other countries) A very good friend of mine is from Mali Africa and say "back home we don't have this depression, and panic attacks". They're also alot more supportive there, she tells me. If you have a child, someone in your family will certainly watch it for you if you need to go to work/the doctor/the store/etc. If you are thirsty, you can knock on someone's door and request a drink, and you will get one. If you are eating alone somewhere, someone will join you. I can just imagine doing that here...probably end in pepper spray. We have charities and programs to help when you're hungry, or underprivledged, but sad? If you're sad, go take a pill and watch some TV, you'll feel better shortly. We don't take time to deal with sad. Or stressed. Or any sort of affliction that exists in the mind...Ironically, this sometimes ends in people coming after the physical programs...the depression kicks in and the job suffers, resulting in less cash, resulting in seeking out programs to help with the bills....

I am sorry to hear of your situation

In western society we have a lethal combination: high expectations, competitiveness, individualism

Those are tough goals! Specially if you deep within yourself don't want to be "the leader". Everyone expects one to be the best in all aspect of life. A kind of superwoman mixed with supermodels that never ages

Shuning the system takes courage but a some point we all have to choose between being happy with ourselves or pleasing an irrational and unreasonable system

If you can bring yourself to do relaxation techniques and conscious breathing, it might be possible to overcome your panic attacks totaly

Breathing consciously changes the stress and brain cycle

Whish you all the best

PS I want to appologyze for my gramatic mistakes, I am dislexic and sometimes I can not spot them even when I read my texts two or three times!

[andromeda]

Ravenari

Each one has his/her own perspective. My experience was to suffer the demise of my mother at 39 and my sister at 55. It was the drugs that made them worse, of that I have no doubt

I guess I escaped being medicated because I am allergic to everything. I only take antibiotics in extreme circumstances. Otherwise I manage my health with cyrstals and herbs

Through mindfulness I was able to overcome my severe self destructiveness. I learned how to meditate and meditation changed my life. Mindfulness and meditation take a lot of work, it is not a quick fix. Some people can't bring themselves to meditate at all, it is not simple

There are of course cases of mental problems derived from genetic malcfunctions

But generally speaking, anyone that suffers mental health will benefit from relaxing and meditating

I am aware of the side effects of St John's Worth. Personally I think that fresh rosemary and nettle are much more effective and have virtually no side effects

Reviewing one's diet also can have a significant impact. A diet high in protein and low in carbohydrates assists quite effectibly in balancing the hormones in the brain. Synthetic E numbers, refined carbohydrates and simple sugars are very detimentral to the nervous system

No one with a mental health problem has an easy journey but, everything that happens in our life can be an incredibly rich journey towards wisdom

Wishing you all the best

[Aphritha]

If you can bring yourself to do relaxation techniques and conscious breathing, it might be possible to overcome your panic attacks totaly

Breathing consciously changes the stress and brain cycle

Breathing techniques do help alot, though its more of a preventive measure in my case. I end up waking up with the attack 9 times out of 10, and by that point its too late. Sometimes I find if I do an activity that is appropriate for breathing heavy and heart racing(such as jogging or jumping jacks), when I'm done my heart and breath will slow down naturally when the activity stops...hope that helps anyone else out there with the same problem, but I may be alone on this technique.

I manage my health with cyrstals and herbs

I know little of managing health with crystals. How is this done?

[Bracken]

Hi, and thank you to everybody for an interesting thread.

Please can I, at this point, draw your collective attention to the rules of this forum as stated in the pink box at the top of the page? Just a friendly reminder that it is fine to give your opinion, but it is best to be clear that it is just that, an opinion.

What might work in one way for one person could have a totally different effect with another, and because of that it's usually best to avoid speaking in absolutes.

Thanks for your attention.

Bracken

[Gwion]

One observation I’d like to add to Bracken’s. Trying to come up with a single treatment for “mental health” seems to me a bit like doing the same for “physical health”. There are so many possible causes when the body doesn’t work the way it’s supposed to/you want it to: different problems require different solutions.

[HinduDruid]

In response to Morganna's original post, I am introducing myself here. I am a clinical intern offering marriage and family therapy -- one year left before graduation! Even when I work with individuals, it is from a systemic point of view. I adapt Emotionally Focused Therapy into my transpersonal framework (influenced by Vedic psychology, Jung, etc.)

I have incorporated guided imagery and meditation in my work primarily with adults who were traumatized as children to great effect. For instance, I sometimes use it to help clients connect with their inner children. For some people, I've added them choosing a semi-precious tumbled stone afterward. It was really cool one day in a family session -- one of them had been given a rose quartz by her inner child in the meditation even though she had no idea what it was. She didn't say anything until I handed her the box including a piece of it in there for her to take home -- she couldn't believe that it just appeared before her like that. The rest of the family members asked if I had used a "magic" trick lol. Funny, they listened a little more intently to me after that.

I am also certifying as a poetry therapist so my Bardic work has been very helpful. I use published poems as well as prompts and tools for clients to create their own poems and stories.

The type of depression I work with seems to be caused by a disconnection to humanity in one way or another. Meds can help alleviate symptoms in these cases sometimes, but studies have found that adult survivors don't always respond well to Rx treatment even though event-related depression has been shown to instigate biological depression. In many cases, it is hard to tell with the genesis of the depression is. Each case is so different though. I know how complex I am as a person so I treat each client the same way. I work with them to find what will work to bring out their inner healer and then guide them along their personal pathway the best I can.

I love that this is a topic here!

[Aoife]

This doesn't really have to do with anything anyone has said but I thought I'd share my experience/thoughts on the subject.

Depression is a real issue in my family. I can't think of a single person (besides the children) who are not on some form of antidepressants. I've been on them on and off since I was 15 and I'm a real believer in "genetic depression." We've all had different types of lives and we've been rich, poor, smart, dumb, made good choices, made bad choices. We're all the colors of the rainbow but the one thing we all have in common is the feeling that we are depressed. I don't think I've had it the worst but as an epileptic I am, apparently, more prone to severe depression. I'll admit it, I struggle with it. I became an epileptic at age 23 and before that I was very depressed...doesn't feel like anything compared to how I feel now and I'll be 26 on the 26th of November.

I always laughthroughmytears at people who try to advocate (more like forcing their view) on people who have REAL depression. I've had people laugh in my face and tell me to come back after I tried to slash my wrists and tell me what depression is. As if you have to be suicidal to have "real" depression. Doctors have told me all the things that are supposed to help. You can exercise, talk to people, take pills and all that jazz as much as you want...and I've tried it all...believe me...and nothing helps. I mean, I really think the next stop for them would put me on a dose so heavy that it would make me a emotional zombie. I'd rather feel something than nothing. When it comes down to it though,the world is still the way the world is and seemingly getting worse all the time and many people who are stuck with depression tend to, like everyone else, wind up with things that are unchangeable in their lives. The horrible things that make you depressed and even the "Nothing is wrong. I don't know why but I just feel this way all the time." that make you depressed don't just go away. It's a chemical imbalance and I know that anti-depressants are supposed to correct that imbalance...but why don't they work?

Also, if western medicine doesn't work why should holistic medicine help? Why should spirit outweigh science or vice-versa?

I felt compelled to post here because I just realized it was 7pm and literally the entire day, since working up at 6:30AM has been spent in a depression cloud. I did literally nothing. It's like someone snapped their fingers and I snapped out of it and it was dark which made me feel compelled and ask the above question.

[ideagirl]

**Also, if western medicine doesn't work why should holistic medicine help? Why should spirit outweigh science or vice-versa?**

That made me smile. I mean a smile of sympathy, like "oh, you poor thing"--because that sentence has "depression thinking" written all over it. Depression has all sorts of rhetorical tricks that keep you immobilized, depressed. What you wrote there sounds terribly logical, but it's actually not, for two reasons:

(1) Just because the word "medicine" is found in both those terms (western medicine and holistic medicine) doesn't mean they are the same thing, or operate the same way, or have the same effects. We say "love" whether we're talking about our sister, our husband, a song on the radio, a new dress, the feeling of spring air on our cheeks, or a pumpkin spice latte--but the feeling that we mean by the word "love" is obviously not the same in all those cases! You're talking about different things there, and western vs. holistic medicine are likewise different things. So a better question is, why SHOULDN'T one work when the other hasn't? It just might, so you might as well try it, right?

(2) Holistic medicine is not all spirit and no science. Western medicine is not all science, and depending on the doctor, it's also not necessarily "no spirit." I've met some western doctors who heal as much with their spirit and heart as they do with science. So what you wrote there is a false dilemma: you don't actually have to choose between spirit and science. You can go to a soulful western medicine doctor and/or to a scientific holistic doctor (for instance, a trained naturopath or Chinese herbalist with a degree in that field may prescribe you herbal remedies that have been demonstrated to work in scientific studies.

[Aoife]

I guess I haven't been so lucky in my doctors then.