Can you still be a Druid if your main Deity is not Celtic?

[skydove]

Expanding on what Michael said would you say that the gods are created by man for man or that the gods themselves adapt to different needs to be available in a form we can understand relative to our time and place?

And a few more questions I am thinking about related to the above.

Are gods real? Are they necessary? Are they more than Archetypes?

How important is it nowadays to create a sense of belonging and group identification through sharing experience of a common pantheon?

Do you think many modern druids have moved away from the need for defined forms of deity and is this a good or bad thing?

Is it a purely personal issue having or not having a relationship with deity? Does this define our druidry?

[katie bridgewater]

Are gods real? Are they necessary? Are they more than Archetypes?

I think that the gods are sometimes real, sometimes necessary and sometimes they are more than pure archetype. But really, like the fey, I prefer it if they get on with being gods and I get on with being a Kate. If our paths cross, I'm always polite to them, whether they take the form of archetype, imaginary being or apparent external being (I can't always tell the difference between these manifestations and have a policy of 'if I can't tell the difference, and no-one else can explain it adequately to me, then it probably isn't very important most of the time).

I'm happy to propitiate, should it seem necessary, and I respect the fact that some people want to have 'personal relationships' with deities. I myself would rather avoid this unless it is necessary/advantageous for both myself and the deity, and I think they usually get very little out of it, unless they only exist if people believe in them, in which case I can choose which gods to destroy, which is quite a responsibility (and hence I am reluctant to stop believing in the possibility of gods all together, as that would be mean)... On the whole, I prefer to have relationships with things I can see, feel, touch and that I know for sure are real like the wind, the weather, animals and other beings.

This keeps me pretty busy, without even starting on the gods, though I am probably not a druid by most people's definitions...

[Fox]

Wow, that's quite a divergent set of questions, skydove.

I'm currently reading a book by Richard Holloway, former Bishop of Edinburgh in the Scottish Episcopal Church, called Doubts and Loves - What is left of Christianity.

His main thesis is that quite aside from the question of whether deities or the divine exist, we can only know and interact with them through purely human inventions, and any purely human inventions is a function of the the time, place and culture that human happens to be living in. He is talking about Christianity and the function of the Bible in particular in today's modern world.

His idea is that one of the things that defines humans is the fact that we wrestle with the question of the divine, and at different times, places and cultures and individuals we come up with different answers to the reality of it and how to deal with it if we think it does exist. He quotes someone as saying the true atheist is someone who never thinks about the divine or care one way or other about a spiritual aspect to life. Not many of us here would fit that definition, because we have thought about it and think it is an important act of faith to take one position or another.

He defines "belief" as "a habit of action" rather than just holding notions in your head. So you would know a Druid by their acts, not just what they espouse.

[DJ Droood]

He defines "belief" as "a habit of action" rather than just holding notions in your head. So you would know a Druid by their acts, not just what they espouse.

Interesting...and it was the "habit of action" of my childhood religion that helped drive me from it...going through the motions on Sunday morning, Easter, etc....people mouthing the words in unison like robots....very few people with an intellectual connection to what they were doing...it is just what they did, and what they had always done and people who didn't do it were social deviants...I never found spirituality in that.

[Fox]

He defines "belief" as "a habit of action" rather than just holding notions in your head. So you would know a Druid by their acts, not just what they espouse.

Interesting...and it was the "habit of action" of my childhood religion that helped drive me from it...going through the motions on Sunday morning, Easter, etc....people mouthing the words in unison like robots....very few people with an intellectual connection to what they were doing...it is just what they did, and what they had always done and people who didn't do it were social deviants...I never found spirituality in that.

Yes, I suppose if your spirituality only consists of what you do on a Sunday morning for an hour or so, then it's probably a pretty hollow kind at that. If it manifests itself in acts of kindness, charity, tolerance, and other action in the world outside of church, it would be a different matter.

[Treeshrew]

Are gods real? Are they necessary? Are they more than Archetypes?

In my humble opinion, nope, nope and nope! Don't get me wrong, I love the stories and think you can learn a lot from them, and I am happy to engage with ideas of the gods in ritual and meditation, but I don't think they are real outside of the Otherworld of imagination. Your experiences may vary, of course, and I'm not trying to get anyone else to share my views, they're just my views.

How important is it nowadays to create a sense of belonging and group identification through sharing experience of a common pantheon?

I worry about group identification, as it can often lead to 'groupthink' and/or the oppression of others who think differently. Rather than a community focussed on belief, I would like to see a community focussed on action to make the world a better place here and now. That sort of group would be open to people of any faith, and none.

Do you think many modern druids have moved away from the need for defined forms of deity and is this a good or bad thing?

I can't speak for Druids, but looking at the census figures in the UK, it seems that more and more people are moving away from organised religion and defined theological identities. I think that's a good thing as it means people are finding their own paths rather than simply believing as they've been told.

Is it a purely personal issue having or not having a relationship with deity? Does this define our druidry?

In my (very limited) experience with Druidry, how you conceive of deity/spirit/gods/sacred whatever is a personal question and people of many very different beliefs can come together as Druids. I am a fan of the 'big tent' approach. I wonder if Druidry is 'defined' by each individual who chooses to use the term?

[Gunslinger]

Ha! What do we know of the original Druids? Jack sh*t.
Absolutely nothing. We dont even know for certain if they actually existed. Dont try arguing otherwise because that is the fact of the matter. Our few sources are already scrutinized. It is possible they existed; yes and given what little evidence we do conclude they must have existed. We base their gods also on what little we know of Celtic Gods. Most information is just based on what someone else knew or thought. But for all we know, we could very well be following stuff made up by either the Romans or the Christians.

Instead what we have here is a concept. An idea of what Druids were. An idea of what they were like and what they valued. That idea has fascinated us and grown like a weed in our imaginations. And by the word alone, the Druid has become what we make of it.

[DaRC]

It would seem that your words match your sn...
I would suggest that the ancient Irish literature does provide a little more than you imply, even a spraint gives up much information about a creature's dietary habits.

Perhaps the possible should be replaced by the probable, the weed with a rose and a stand-alone concept with a continuum. A nice triad

[skydove]

I have always thought actions define who you are rather than beliefs, how you live your life in relation to those around you.

My beliefs are usually in a state of flux where I grope along trying to make sense of the world and find it is always several steps in front of me, but at the same time I find the process of discovery and study fascinating. I also wonder if it is necessary to try to join everything together into one system or way of looking at things as this on the surface seems restricting, though maybe further down the line some sort of pattern will jump out or be revealed through my own efforts.

I toy with mythologies particularly celtic mythologies trying to use them as ways to understand my own life to give a sense of who I am and through them my ancestral history and beliefs and my own and my ancestors relationship with the land and their cultural identity hoping it will have teachings that I can use now as I live and inter-react with the world as it is today. Whether they were invented as stories to give meaning and understanding to peoples lives in the dim and distant past they were obviously important as they have been preserved in written form for centuries and probably aurally for longer than that and I think it is human nature to pick over things and find meaning where it can.

But apart from gaining understanding of these things we don't only live in our heads we live in the physical sensory world as Kate says and that too teaches us many things of equal importance. The points where the two cross over may be the place you find the 'druid', whatever deity you believe or don't believe in.