Other Druid Groups

[wolfsbane]

Hi All and a Merry Beltane,

Im having issues at the moment with what is and isnt druidry.

As a studying Bard with OBOD i feel i need to research the information i am taking in so i go off trawling the internet to see what i can find.

Well i visited the BDO website which personaly made me feel about as welcome as snow in summer so after a bit more trawling i found the ADF.

Now having been a druidic follower for many many years i was troubled to find out that what i have always thought of as a spiritual belief isnt really its a Religion with Dogma. There was a huge piece that i read through about the differences between ADF & OBOD and how the beliefs of OBOD were not accurate and the beliefs of ADF were so now im confused.

What makes one group better than the other?
Why should i feel so unwelcome on sites that a reportedly based around my spiritual beliefs?
What difference does it make if my chosen group is based on 19th century ideals or 20th century?
Am i just reading to much into all this and should get on with Gwers 12 and stop putting it off

Love & Light

[skydove]

How can a belief by nature "be accurate" what is accuracy, what is belief? Anyway I dont want to get pedantic and start playing with words and their meanings. OBOD to me tells me to experience my druidry not look at what someone in the past has said is an accurate way of being a druid, it frees me to experience my way of druidry along my path. It feels a good way for me to learn and explore and makes suggestions as to how I can do this, I don't think it is dogmatic I think it encourages you to learn what you as an individual both need and want.

We are all different, for others who wish to follow a druid path there are other ways and other organisations, each probably appealing to a slightly different way of looking at the world. To me what is and what isn't druidry is irrelevant, what I do is just part of my everyday life, part of me, it doesn't have a label attached. I find it hard to get excited by differences - it would tie up my mind and my energy too much when I am trying to explore myself and my relationship with and understanding of the world. I certainly dont want to go down the route of who is bigger than who, which druid is more druidic. I know for some this is important, particularly if they are of a very analytical frame of mind and enjoy the mental challenge and wish to explore their spirituality through being a 'mental' druid.

A web site is just a web site dependant on the webmaster and the engineer if you don't like unfriendly websites stick around here or better still get outside and into nature

[DJ Droood]

What makes one group better than the other?
Why should i feel so unwelcome on sites that a reportedly based around my spiritual beliefs?
What difference does it make if my chosen group is based on 19th century ideals or 20th century?
Am i just reading to much into all this and should get on with Gwers 12 and stop putting it off

Yea, I would say just get on with your lesson...don't worry too much about what people are writing on websites. My experience is that ADF is generally more organized in North America and interested in spreading the word at pagan gatherings (although I see you are from Wiltshire...is there even an ADF in the UK?)...they are more focused on group experience than OBOD, and seem to take a more religious approach. They seem to be a bit younger and more social than the average OBODie. OBODies seem to be like Anglicans and ADFers are more Penticostal. I don't think there is any serious rivalry or widespread disrespect between members of the two grooups..maybe more like fans of different sports teams. The bla bla bla on messageboards is meaningless...it is all about what you like, and getting out and meeting real people, if that is what you want. I'm pretty sure a real-life ADF group would welcome an OBOD member and vice-versa.

[seabhac star]

Hello wolfsbane. seeing as you've done a lot of research it's quite possible that you've read the following link:http://www.adf.org/about/basics/adf-and-obod.html If not , it is informative. Also The introduction to "The Druidry Handbook" by John Michael Greer May help answer some questions. I tend to agree with the above comments also. I hope this info helps a little. Otherwise I wouldn't worry too much about the physical ,debatable things and would concentrate on the inner work. Good Luck with your quest!

[Badger Bob]

Hi Wolfsbane

There are many different groups out there that all have different focuses (focii?), some focus on tradition, some on religion, some on innovation and others on just about any facet of Druidry you can find. OBOD is at one end of the scale along with the AODA (Ancient Order of Druids in America) the BDO and other British style groups that take the tradition that started in the eighteenth century as their basis. In the middle you will find those groups that are still neopagan but use a few more recent ideas and reject most of the eighteenth century basis, such as the ADF. At the far end of the scale are groups like Brython that are reconstructionist in their outlook and reject most of that which isn't verified by archaological evidence. To me the difference is that the OBOD end of the scale is what I would call "spirituality", allowing for personal beliefs and a little eclecticism to add to the core of the Druidry. The ADF and further along the scale are more "religion", there is a central core of pagan belief that must be adhered to and not embellished (although I note that a lot of ADF groves are Norse rather than Celtic in culture, I have never really understood that). In the ADF there are hierarchies and titles that seem to reinforce the feeling of being a religion rather than a philosophy or a spirituality. It all depends what kind of thing you are looking for, a religion to belong to or a spirituality in which to develop your own beliefs.*

There seems to be an ADF grove in Hampshire so if you are interested in their kind of Druidry you could contact them. Otherwise I would suggest keeping on with the Bardic Grade and looking around at some other material from OBOD-friendly sources - John Michael Greer is excellent (The Druidry Handbook and the Druid Magic Handbook especially), Kevan Manwaring's The Bardic Handbook, Kristoffer Hughes' Natural Druidry or the books by Julie White and Graham Talboys (Arianrhod's Dance, The Path Through the Forest or Way of the Druid). A lot of people also like Emma Restall-Orr's books but personally I don't get on with them, worth a look though. These all present a form of Druidry compatible with the OBOD course while you are still having doubts about it all. Books are just one part of the equation though, if you can find a moot, grove or seedgroup nearby then you can learn more quickly by talking with real people that you can by reading.

*Note: I only know of the ADF from a few friends on the net who are in the ADF and my own research prior to joining OBOD. if I have grossly misrepresented them please accept my apologies and let me know, I accept that I may be out of date or passing on some bias from my friends. I have a natural aversion to anything trying to become a church which probably colours my view of them.

[blodyn]

Wolfsbane,

I was a member of ADF for over 5 years. It has a great deal more structure than OBOD, with more, well, requirements. By requirements, I mean ritual form, etc. Everything has a form and structure! I met a lot of great people and learned a great deal, but it never really clicked with me at all. I chaffed at being told how to do things and when to do it. It didn't feel personal, it felt more prescribed. Some people don't mind that, and in fact welcome that. I, however, am not one of those people. I felt odd and out of place.

Great group, and I appreciated the chance to learn, but I am MUCH more comfortable with OBOD. Part of that comfort is because I like the focus on the here and now. Who are we NOW. What can we do NOW. Now and in the future! Not so much on what did the ancient Druids do and how can we be sure we are doing it the same way, etc.

[MistyNightWind]

I don't see how one group can be inerently better than the other, it depends on what you are looking for to gain out of the group which would determine this.

If you feel unwelcome on a site then remember there not attacking you personally and with such a path as Druidry which is not dogmatic there will be differences with only some core fundementals, but then isn't that part of the beauty of it.

Although I can understand why you would want to understand all the differences to be able to make up your mind on an order I went through the same process recently and ended up on the ADF website, which I found friendly with some fantastic meditations, but the structure did not appeal to me because you had to choose what you wanted to specialise in, whereas with OBOD you get a mix of everything! I'm still looking into others, obviously you want to find the one thats right for you- to be honest obod seem to be the still at the top for me.

As for the idea of labelling, I think this is important, but it cahnges depending on who your talking to cos not everyone will understand the same label in the same way.

On another note I must congratualte you on your metaphor, this really made m smile:

which personaly made me feel about as welcome as snow in summer

Love and Laughter
Misty

[wolf560]

Hello All,

I pondered this topic before deciding to "weigh in" on it.

I am a member of the ADF, the BDO, and the BCD.
I am a former member of the OADA, and the OBOD.

I was unable to afford paying for the coursework in any of the above organization except the BCD (Bandarach College of Druidry). While attempting to study the ADF and OBOD, I was completing my coursework towards my Druid with the BCD in 2004. Although I signed up for courses with the BDO, their reorganization left many records to be lost in the Aether. For the OBOD, I never got past the initial stage when I saw the prices. For the record, I am not against the charging of fees, it helps with the organization and also ensures the students are here to learn for the most part.

I noticed a great many differences between all the groups and their inherent psychology of interacting both with the land around them and each other at the time.

In the OADA, a discussion began about the four cardinal directions. I posited the thought that "Air" could in fact be in the North and "Fire" in the East ( a discussion for a later time perhaps here). Within 45 minutes I was asked to leave and have not returned since. It seems the Dogma of the Four Cardinal points was an absolute and no differences were to be tolerated. I bear them no ill will, but I was disappointed at the reaction.

What I like about both the ADF and the OBOD ( as well as my Alma Mater; the BCD) is that most of the Druids I am in contact with are very open and even-tempered. They are willing to hear you out and discuss pro's and con's in the argument.

In the end, it is our perception (our "Opinion" a opposed to any "Truth" in the matter) that truly defines our existence and our interaction with the Land around us.

Pay little attention to the differences, unless they are standing in the way of your direct progression. The petty differences can easily be put to the fact that everyone has an "Opinion" and nobody really knows the "Truth".

Be well to learn from the Past
Be Balanced in your dealing in the Present
Be ready to learn even more Tomorrow

/|\ Mark

[Lailoken]

I am a member of the ADF, the BDO, and the BCD.
I am a former member of the OADA, and the OBOD.

What is the OADA?

[Lailoken]

Now having been a druidic follower for many many years i was troubled to find out that what i have always thought of as a spiritual belief isnt really its a Religion with Dogma. There was a huge piece that i read through about the differences between ADF & OBOD and how the beliefs of OBOD were not accurate and the beliefs of ADF were so now im confused.
Love & Light

I don't know what you read, but always be mindful of who the author is, what their leanings are, and what their motives are. No one can say one is right the other is wrong, their both different and they both have their place. ADF rejects much of the information and traditions born out of the Revival period of Druidry. ADF is religious Druidism whereas OBOD is spiritual Druidry. ADF is more structure, dogmatic and academic, which is great for those who repond to that. After joining OBOd I also joined ADF to get a different perspective on Druidry. While I repect ADFs approach, OBODs approach to Druidry resonates more with me, so I let my membership to ADF lapse, and focus on my own Druidry, the way I see it, with guidance through OBOD.

John Michael Greer had a great article on the AODA website concerning authenticity vs. validity that I think is an invaluable article for any newbie to read. Unfortunately, I was looking for it on the website recently and couldn't find it. But in a nutshell, he talked about how a practice can be valid (effective) without being authentic (reconstructed), and how a reconstructed path doesn't necessarily mean it's effective.

My biggest question that I would like to have answered from these people is; since we know so little about the original Druids, how can one reconstruct ancient Druidry as a full, workable system and have any claim of authenticity? I just don't think it can be done.

[wolf560]

OADA= AODA

My apologies or the typo....

/|\ Mark

[Lailoken]

OADA= AODA

My apologies or the typo....

/|\ Mark

Wow, that kind of reaction from AODA seems surprising, not like I have any experience with them, mind you. I've read JMGs books, and many of the articles on the website, and I never got the impression that AODA had such an absolutist, dogma-like attitude.

[Lailoken]

I should add, not that I'm doubting you and your experience.

[wolf560]

My biggest question that I would like to have answered from these people is; since we know so little about the original Druids, how can one reconstruct ancient Druidry as a full, workable system and have any claim of authenticity? I just don't think it can be done.

Greetings,

To understand "Why" they did something can illuminate even the darkest cavern of thought.

To that extent, I find a study of the Celts and anything from that period (500 B.C.E. to 150 C.E.) can lend to some very insightful pieces of knowledge.

Try, for instance, studying Diogenes Laertius and what he said about Druids. Also Sotion and Pythagoras for that matter.

This may not lend itself to a "fully workable system" but it will serve as a measuring post against which other newer assertions can be measured.

"Those who cannot remember the past are doomed to repeat it".

For example; if we take for granted that the Druids did "everything in 3's" then we can say affirmatively that they probably did not believe in the Five Elements? If we know that Celtic women were free to take as many lovers in a night as they wished, then we can perhaps look differently at the Guinevere part in King Arthurian tales. If Druids were welcome as students (and perhaps as teachers) in the Ionian schools (as mentioned by Diogenes Kaertius quoting an earlier work by Sotion and Aristotle I believe) then they were at least equal to the education levels of those renowned scholars.

Even Caesar gave praise to the Druids......

I say all of this to illustrate that we must delve into what the Druids were (for some of us) so that we can extrapolate what we might do to continue in their footsteps. this philosophy is of course a personal one, but after all..... what is modern Druidry but a personal belief system founded upon the simple feeling that we should better ourselves and the world around us somehow.

I bear no ill feeling toward any group or individual in their pursuit of their beliefs.
I merely continue my path of enlightenment the bets way I know how to....

/|\ Mark

[wolf560]

Wow, that kind of reaction from AODA seems surprising, not like I have any experience with them, mind you. I've read JMGs books, and many of the articles on the website, and I never got the impression that AODA had such an absolutist, dogma-like attitude.

It's OK.... some topics can go awry at the silliest of times...


/|\ Mark

[Oneonine]

I found ADF druids were constantly after sources. Quote the source - quote the source. Mostly they liked ancient irish manuscripts. Seems filing essays and research might be a big part of it? One ADF lass picked my brains for a few hours, wanting the sources, and came back a few weeks later to say she's had her essay on the topic accepted and published, so I guess they have a magazine or ezine or something.

Thing is - those sources are often mistranslated, as well as all the untranslated ones. So chances are your rigid source-only reconstruction might be wrong are pretty high, I would say.

One example I came across with a chatroom of ADF druids was clinging to the idea that honour prices were set and counted in numbers of cows. Not really, of course. The coinage was the cumhal, which means slave. One slave = three cows = however many chickens etc... No one wated to discuss slaves, so the sophistry of using cow measurements was used to discuss such things. I was shouted down for mentioning the celts practiced slavery... so I switched to sacrifice...lol... nuff said.

I found the OBOD too eclectic, to be honest, and wondered sometimes why the word druid is used for somthing so all inclusive... just a personal opinion and perspective. Not just the filling in the missing bits with other stuff, but the leaving out of bits we do know. Then again, the druids had daer-druids and saer-druids, and fili and bards, so they acknowledged different levels of involvement and commitment to it all even then.

BDO seemed to be in a hiatus, not unfriendly, as such, just quiet. They are promising a new mail order course there this year.

AODA had some great articles, stuff on the garden of memory I liked. Didn't know they were so rigid about the four elements thing. Their forum seemed to only have some survivalists active and chatting at the time I checked it out. Perhaps there was a hiatus there at the time too.

Summerlands had stuff about the nine directions and elements and senses that resembled what I was used to more, but also, no one posting (after spamming issues) I think.

TDN the arguments were offputting at the time I swung by.

HDN went silent, not sure if they still publish their magazine.

And a couple of self proclaimed arch druid groups with perhaps five members each, whose main policies were hailing the chief in all his glory, and bowing to his superior knowledge and accepting his instruction in what to believe... etc...

Druidschool, I get a newletter but thats about it.

Druid Village ning site used to be fairly busy.

Thats my full experience with druid groups so far.

[Huathe]

All,

I have really enjoyed this conversation. I myself have been trying to figure out what path to follow concerning druidry. In many ways I already consider myself a druid but of course formal education on it would enhance and polish it. I guess I am like a " diamond in the rough ".

I have researched a bit on some of the other druid organizations and it seems OBOD may be the best for me. I choose to follow a path of druidship that focuses more on the philosophical aspects of it and not so much upon the religious aspects. Druidry, above all to me, could help improve my perceptions on the natural world above what it already is.

The hardest part for me is the price of the OBOD courses. They are high enough that I cannot afford to take them at this time, especially with the holiday buying season so close. I may however be able to get the introductiory starter package though.

But you guys can help guide me on my journey.

James

[Lailoken]

OBOD has payment plan options, or at least they did when I joined a few years back. It may be worth contacting the office and getting some info.

[wolf560]

Hello James,

With the economy the way it is these days, I find it easy to see why so many study courses in the esoteric are having a hard time finding students.

I personally toyed with the idea of attaining my "Druid status" in the OBOD, BDO, and ADF but the cost of even one is a bit daunting for now.

The OBOD discussion board offers people a chance to communicate and at least continue the learning process until such time as the financial status changes. I recommend what my Physics Professor used to tell us "You have one mouth and two ears so you should listen twice as much as you speak...."

That said, I have been reading this board for nearly a month and have only just now begun posting.... hopefully I will follow my own advice and shut up for a few days now

/|\ Mark

[Huathe]

Mark,

Thanks for the advice. This message board is my first formal step into druidry.

James