Knowing your place...

[morgane_snowy_owl]

Hi!

I just got a slap on the wrist, it was embarassing, and I need to talk about it in order to figure out how to avoid that in the future.

From what I understand of the OBOD system, "bard" "ovate" and "druid" are areas of knowledge, and they are not really a hierarchy. If you're a bard, you're no less powerful than an ovate or a druid. OBOD suggests that groves should be "led" by two druids because their greater knowledge makes them more resourceful to guide the grove members and its activities. But does it mean that they have greater spiritual authority?

And if there is no hierarchy per se, why do people traditionally start as bards, then as ovates, and then as druids, why not choose the area of knowledge you want to start with? I don't disagree at all, I just want to really grasp the logic behind it.

I am a bardic student right now. I called myself a pagan before, because I was eclectic and looking for the path I wanted to follow. Now that I've found OBOD, and after a year of exploring this path, I feel very confident that I want to identify myself with the druidic tradition, it is what I choose to follow right now. I've called myself pagan also because it felt "lower-key". Now I've begun really transcending that shyness and insecurity, and I want to stop hiding, without making a show. I just want to embrace my new identity, plain and simple, it's part of my spiritual growth to make that step.

If I say I'm an "OBOD", people just don't understand what I'm talking about. A whole lot of pagans also don't even understand what I'm talking about if I call myself "bard".

I've listened to almost all the podcasts and I've heard people refer to OBOD members as "druids". I've also heard and read people call themselves "ovate" or "bard" while doing activities related to these areas of knowledge, even if they had completed the three grades and were, technically, "full-fledged druids".

So, in the last two weeks I've been calling myself "druidess", like other people call themselves "christian" or "jew", and I did so while knowing my place. After all, "christians" or "jews" know they're not rabbis or bishops...

It didn't take long: a friend of mine, who did her training in the scottish tradition long ago, who was initiated "ban-drui" in that tradition, and who is very keen on reminding me that OBOD is NEO-druidic and not druidic, responded to my calling myself "druidess" by calling me "mabinog". She wanted to remind me that I'm at the beginning of the path and probably found me arrogant to call myself "druidess". She's very watchful for that kind of thing, and is determined to make me transcend my ego because she loves me, and I'm thankful for that. But...

It was humiliating (she did it in front of fellow pagans, as she often does), and I certainly don't want to create that kind of misunderstanding in the future with her or with other people. I want to embrace my identity with humility as part of the druidic (of neo-druidic, boy it's complicated) tradition. Without shocking people.

Any suggestions?

On another topic: we also had a discussion a few weeks ago about how much tension there is, according to her, in the druidic tradition right now. She said it is THE tradition that is the most unstable right now, because of that. She is also a rosicrucian, and apparently it happened to that tradition in the near past, and there were lots of quarrels and tensions and jibes about how things should be. In her point of view, OBOD is perceived a bit like the "hippy offspring" of the other more traditional druidic paths. I have nothing against that, I don't mind OBOD being neo-druidic (I think that's what Dahm meant by saying OBOD is not "reconstructionist")... but are you guys aware of that much tension and discordances in the druidic path right now? I only know OBOD, so I have NO idea...

Okay, enough babbling. Your insight on those two points will be golden.

Namaste

Morgane Snowy Owl

[celticmodes]

When I was a fundamentalist Christian, we had the habit of judging other churches as not having enough spirit or teaching the wrong interpretation. When I was learning Irish Traditional music, the arguments were endless about what was trad and what style was right and what didn't belong in a style. When I was thinking of joining SCA, I was put off by the faire nazis. When I was a pagan, the high magick people looked down on me.

The need for a human to categorize and judge is a fear based survival mechanism that has become a failing of our species at this point in our evolution. Your friend may be smart but she is not wise. A wise person would see that, with so little time available to us, our awareness should be spent less on mental constructs and more on getting the work done and communing with the all. A wise person would also guide you down the path of your strengths and not point out your idealogical differences in a group setting. I can only suppose that she does that to feel better about herself, which of course is ego driven.

So, next time she reminds you that you are Neo Druidic just tell her that you are that because it is the superior way and all other paths are inferior and if she was enlightened, she could see that. That should get her motor running...

[morgane_snowy_owl]

Thanks for replying, celticmodes!

You raise several interesting questions. Yup, I totally agree with you, "shouldisms" and "mustisms" should (ha!) be banned from our vocabulary. Being passionate about your tradition is one thing. Refusing the flexibility of being interested in other ways, within your tradition or not, is missing wonderful opportunities to experience many enlightening things.

The need for a human to categorize and judge is a fear based survival mechanism that has become a failing of our species at this point in our evolution. (...) with so little time available to us, our awareness should be spent less on mental constructs and more on getting the work done and communing with the all.

That applies as much to my friend as it applies to me. Basically, your comment suggests that spending my energy to define my spiritual identity is a waste of time... that I should just "be" and go on my journey without burdening myself with labels and such. Part of me hears that very positively, the part that believes very strongly that all religions and spiritualities are about the very same basic thing; they just approach it, celebrate it, ritualize it, conceptualize it, in different ways. So yeah, who cares if the label is "pagan", "druidess", "christian", "mabinog" or "warerabitt"...

I also embrace the fact that it is truly important to transcend your ego. I appreciate the energy my friend puts into that with me; I fall easily into that trap because of my insecurity wounds (that are really healing now, mega-yay, but not juuuust there yet). She's also 20 years my elder, she's really experienced and knowledgeable, and I take that into consideration. Whether she does it out of love, or out of a need to feel better about herself, it belongs to her and in a way, I don't care. I take what's good for me and leave the rest.

BUT part of me disagrees with that concept you talked about. The OBOD structure and "titles" are also there to give you a point of reference. Know yourself... that is so primordial. We druids are big on cycles; its emphasis on the cyclic nature of the universe, in every incarnation, every year, every minute, is so beautiful and fundamental. It's important to know where you are on these cycles. At this point in my life, I'm a Mother. At this point in the pagan tradition, I'm considered experienced and I do high magick. At this point of the year, I'm experiencing and celebrating Lughnasadh. At this point of my druidic journey, I'm a bard. And so on. Knowing who I am, in these different cycles, helps me be AWARE and that changes everything. Hence why I want to define my spiritual identity in a way that feels right on spot.

However, when lables and titles become obssessive, limitative, trigger condescending remarks or make others pass judgements, it's pointless and silly, indeed.

[Lailoken]

Wow...some friend.

First of all, you say that your friend is helping you transcend your ego because she loves you, yet she calls you out in public, as she often does. That doesn't sound like much of a friend, or something done out of love. Someone needs to transcend their ego and I don't think it's you.

I'd like to know what this Scottish tradition is and what it's all about because it sounds like she's inferring that this tradition teaches 'real' Druidry. I think someone needs to remind her that we have next to no information on what the original Druids did back in the day, so it's 100% unlikely that her tradition is anymore 'authentic' than any other Druid tradition. I can't recall if it was in one of Ross Nichols or John Michael Greers books, but basically there are no contemporary accounts of what the Druids of old did save for about 8 pages from Caesars writings, and since he was at war with the Celts, his bias is plain to see.

If your religion or spirituality is Druidry, then you're a Druid, just as if your religion is Christianity, your a Christian, Judaism, Jew, etc. etc. It's not like you're calling yourself Arch-Druid, Chief Druid, or whatever, again much like a Christian would not call themselves priest, minister, pope just because they're a Christian. So no, you did not create any misunderstanding. Your 'friend' just wants to be viewed as a superior person, so knowledgeable and wise and experienced, which tells me she's just a small person inside with inferiority issues she's desperate to hide from her fellow Pagans.

Next time, just tell her to shove her ban-drui where the sun don't shine!

As for this tension within the Druidic community. There will always be a bit of grand-standing or my tradition is better than your tradition, in the Pagan community, which is the same for Christians, Jews, Muslims, cities, countries, sports teams, etc. It's dumb but it's there.

I think OBOD will always get slammed from this person or that, simply because it's the largest Druid organisation in the world, and the most visible. Throughout the years, I've noticed many ADFers looking down on OBODies, and I feel that for the most part, it has to do with having an inferiority complex. I say this as a former member of ADF. OBOD goes back (not literally) to the revivalist era, and retains elements from that time. ADF is more academic, their Dedicants program is heavy on celtic study and (I feel) light on personal experience. That academic nature can easily give one the air of superiority. They're not influenced by the revivalist era, but they're not reconstructionist either.

In my opinion, a Druidic organisation cannot be reconstructionist due to the lack of inofrmation we have on specific Druidic practices, rituals, etc. We can infer much based on archeological evidence, but we just don't know exact practices. If any Druid organisation claimed to be reconstructionist, I would be more inclined to view them as Celtic Reconstructionist and not Druidic.

By the way, I'm not a Druid because I'm a member of OBOD or any other Druid tradition. I'm a member of OBOD because I'm a Druid and want to be a part of a like-minded community. I was born a Druid and I will die a Druid.

[celticmodes]

Yes, I was a bit harsh in calling our need to construct reference points and identify (or not identify with them) with them a human failing. It's necessary for us to carry out our roles in life. Being aware that we do this and that it can get out of hand is a blessing for me. I still get caught up in it myself but sooner or later I snap back to simplicity.

I also agree with Lailoken that I was born a Druid and have spent a life time trying to find the religion/order that most closely resembles what I have experienced since childhood. I think you are a Druidess. Shall I have cards printed up?

[skh]

I have nothing against that, I don't mind OBOD being neo-druidic (I think that's what Dahm meant by saying OBOD is not "reconstructionist")... but are you guys aware of that much tension and discordances in the druidic path right now?

Yes.

I'm not sure about the other pagan belief groups, wiccans, and heathens and what else, but I'd be surprised if there wasn't a good deal of diversity within these too, and not everyone is comfortable with diversity.

I would go as far as saying: if you're not 100% solitary, it is part of the initiation into modern paganism to come to terms with the diversity, and with a lot of people trying to tell you where you're wrong. (And still respect their beliefs, and not getting bitter.)

peace /|\
Sonja

[morgane_snowy_owl]

First of all, you say that your friend is helping you transcend your ego because she loves you, yet she calls you out in public, as she often does. That doesn't sound like much of a friend, or something done out of love.

Thank you Lailoken for taking the time to reply, I really appreciate it. I guess I wrote that because I don't want the discussion to be about my friend, and I would be horrified if people misjudge her because of me. I wanted the discussion to be about the point she raised by her comment.

However, I took time to think about what you said. And although I do think that it's good for anyone to constantly keep the ego in check (and the Dalaï-Lama would agree with this! ), Marie-Renee might not be the best person to help me with that. I've known her for several years, and I know her bulldozer and sometimes crude talk is just her being passionate and honest, not condescending, manipulative or cruel. Especially when she respects and has faith in someone. Could she benefit from dropping the Diva hat and question her own judgement or attitude a little bit more sometimes? Who am I to judge that! I do know that most people who are shocked by what she says about them always end up finding out that she was dead on after all. IMO, the Wise Woman in her has a lot to teach me, and the human gets LOUDLY in the way and does more harm than good sometimes. Totally agree with you in that regard: wow! BUT I'm no masochist, so I'll keep in mind that if the Wise Woman I see in her can do me a lot of good, I have to remind myself the cost-benefit aspect of having to interact with the human too! So thank you, Lailoken, for making me understand that important nuance.

Okay, now with the less personal aspects of the discussion:

She mentioned attending several big rituals with the White Oak druids, which were held in Scotland (so my mistake here). http://www.whiteoakdruids.org/ I can see right in their statement of belief that it may very well have been where she studied, because right in the fifth paragraph you can see how they want to dissociate themselves from medieval romances about Arthur and Merlin. She seems very uncomfortable with the Avalon/Merlin/Viviane archetypes and such, and seems to disapprove them a lot.

Look, I recently listened to one of the early podcasts that had an interview with the White Oak founder (if I'm not mistaken; it was a woman). She sounded very knowledgeable and not at all condescending. But yes, they seem to be purists, and to have a strict structure and hierarchy. In comparison, I can see how OBOD clashes with them a little bit. However, I'm sure I'll go take a closer look one day, just for the sake of diversifying my knowledge and experiences. (one thing at a time; I still have the gwers to complete!!!!)

I completely agree with you that an academic approch doesn't give anyone the right to feel superior. I used to give a lot of credit on empirical evidence and did a lot of work to reconnect with my instinct and find its right balance with my intellect. The gwers have taught me the endless value of experience, and it has completely changed the way I work and lead my life (I'm a psychologist).

I'm not a Druid because I'm a member of OBOD or any other Druid tradition. I'm a member of OBOD because I'm a Druid and want to be a part of a like-minded community. I was born a Druid and I will die a Druid.

ooooooh that made me shiver, my friend. That expresses very well why I joined the order...

celticmodes, no need to print cards!!! but I'm glad that we agree!

Sonja, thanks for your comment, and thanks for bringing that up. My friend seemed to suggest that druidism had reached a point when this widespread attitude had become particularly critical and salient in the druidic tradition. Hence my puzzlement, because it was not my impression. I have reached a point in my practice where I can listen to other people's faiths and opinions with a huge grain of salt. You are right, coping with other people's anger, bitterness and self-importance is an art that has to be learned! Well, I'm still learning, ergo, I'm alive!

Yours truly,

Druidess

[treegod]

From what I understand of the OBOD system, "bard" "ovate" and "druid" are areas of knowledge, and they are not really a hierarchy.

True to some extent. I think also there is a sense of "natural progression" very similar to the butterfly cycle, where Bard corresponds to caterpilar, Ovate to chrysalis and Druid to Butterfly. But I think these are symbolic and don't necessarily reflect the stage of spiritual or personal progression that someone is at.

If you're a bard, you're no less powerful than an ovate or a druid. OBOD suggests that groves should be "led" by two druids because their greater knowledge makes them more resourceful to guide the grove members and its activities. But does it mean that they have greater spiritual authority?

I think there is something like spiritual authority, but it is one based on experience, not on titles or grades or degrees. These things may reflect a certain amount of authority or experience but they aren't completely reflective.

For instance, the tutor system might be seen as a sort of "filtering process" that makes sure that people have worked through the course (I've already come against a "barrier" and have to work through a few things). But I think anyone with enough brains can pretend to have done the work and "sneak" through the grade system like that. The tutor system is not impervious to deception.

The sort of authority I would accept from the OBOD "hierarchy" is on these points:
- the level of experience someone has had on the structure and materials in the OBOD course (which doesn't necessarily reflect spiritual progress, experience or authority).
- to progress through the grades I must work with my tutors.
- the offices of OBOD (Chosen Chief, Scribe, Pendragon and Modron, the ones I know about) I would respect as having certain roles in the structure of OBOD, roles that, by definition, are responsible for the spiritual guardianship of OBOD and its members and to not hinder and even help that work as much as I can.

Also, authority doesn't mean power or control in this context. I think it relates to people's level of experience, and yet also, in the tradition of Alice Bailey, those "higher" in the hierarchy aren't there to lord it over, but instead to SERVE. They have a responsibility to those with less experience in matters such as spirituality. And when it comes to choices the "authorities" cannot interfere, choice for certain things must always be free.

My view of the structure of a mystery school is circular. At the centre there is the person responsible for the teachings themselves (Chosen Chief) that acts as a "gravitational" principle that gives the rest of the order coherence. And, in theory, each grade takes you "deeper" into that circle, as each Order initiate accrues more experience that corresponds to the material and structure of the course.

I find the OBOD course very good, and whatever its roots, I feel it is legitimised by my inner experience of it rather than legitimate historical roots.

[Merlyn]

Druidry does differ from other pagan circles.
In essence, once a druid finishes the grade (druid grade) s/he becomes a bard once more.
Unlike the other traditional pagan ways like Wicca, the druid of the grades enters last, is normally a host of the event in the case of ritual.
The Ovate is the worker of the circle, not that a bard or druid isn't, but when joined by bard and ovate, the circle has an 'order'.

So in essence, unless one steps past; to the personal work of adept, and even so after such a journey, we are all back where we began.
This baffles the others, and is often misunderstood. The ego others have of being hierarchical, indeed will show when one is confronted by such a question. (There is no priest)
To be PenDragon is to be of service, committed to the call of right reed. This is a choice we make, to ourself and all in the family of life. This is the highest honor of the druid, to be of service to others.

Unlike the spell casters, we rather seek a balance of healthy wisdom, creative light and love of all existence.

Bright blessings,
Merlyn

[Donata]

Hi,

Excellent replies so far!

Re your first question - I think the grades only show that someone has studied something and thus, has built a foundation for the next level. The foundation of the creative Bard work prepares the druid for the deeper inner work of the Ovate - which in turn provides the base for the Druid work - much of which consists of how OBOD is organized, and how to fully carry out and create ritual. All three can make one a Druid, but I feel we're already druids when we're called to join. I'm using caps and small letters to mark the difference, which IMO just matters within OBOD, and only to show the level of study you're at - similar to undergrad, grad, or post-grad work. To anyone else, you are a Druid! you are a member of OBOD, thus you are a Druid!

An important part of 'knowing your place' is knowing when to stand firm, not to be overly swayed or influenced by another's opinion. What makes their opinion of you more 'correct' than your own inner knowing of who you are? So much of our studies are aimed at just that - knowing who we are, in our own hearts. Just because your friend puts you down in the name of reducing your ego doesn't make her right - and I find her methods especially destructive. It's not helpful nor healthy to verbally put down someone in front of others, and especially without you asking for her opinion at that time. I'm not attacking your friend but I can't ignore this part of your post. To me, your reaction to your friend is important to examine. Why do you accept what she says? Why do you allow it to upset you? If you feel there is truth in what she says, explore that yourself and change what you decide to change - make it your choice.

We all need a healthy ego. The optimal goal isn't to destroy the ego but to learn to be in control of it, and that includes acknowledging our successes, our positive qualities, etc. Self examination per the OBOD course is more helpful IMO than accepting unquestioningly when someone takes it on herself to point our your 'faults' - but that's your choice.

If you don't like it you have choices. You can drop the friendship. You can smile sweetly and agree with her, "Yes, OBOD is more reconstructive" (or whatever she says about OBOD) and not discuss it. You can just smile when she makes comments re your ego. Or, if you choose, you can confront her - though I doubt that will prove very successful. What do you really feel about yourself? Examine yourself and your motives - and you will do more for yourself than any attention and credence you give to another's opinion of you.

Good luck!
Donata

[Nightfalls]

I have shed myself of titles, as they lead to things like what happened with your friend. When people insist on knowing what i am, i tell them i am a Druid. So it should be no problem calling yourself a Druidess. It is a general title encompassing the entirety of the path we follow.

Normally i am laughed at and called a Larpser at that point. Or they start going on and on and on about WoW. I just tune the stuff out and go on with my business.

[Davin Raincloud]

I respect people if they call themselves a Druid and they just start out, however if they call themselves an Arch Druid I have to raise some eyebrows.

There seems to be a lot of Arch Druids about.

I think it's time for us Neo-Pagans to make Druid a path.... just like being a Jedi.

If you are an Arch Druid and head up OBOD or ADf then so be it.... but if it's a 10 man coven and you are the Arch Druid... time to re-evaluate things a little.

[Merlyn]

We don't have to explain anything really. For me, it is more interesting to converse about what others do and think as a religion or pagan path. I then connect in that conversation all of the points we have in common and leave those that we do not, up to them to figure. I learn more, and that is what I am after.

There is a lot of disinformation about druidry today, including the neo, whateveryouwant, re-druid and so on.
To put that in perspective, one could and can say that about any religion or pagan path. OBOD druidry is defined, has direction, just like any of the other spiritual ways. If we have invented our own form, then how is that different from the many denominations of Christian, Muslim or other religions really?
Re-constructionist druidism is just one of many druid ways.

To the question though;
I speak in terms of "being drui" as an active role, one of service to all in the family of life. This is druidry.
It is that simple.

This explains the ethic of druidism I am a part of, and rather quickly cuts through the chaff in any conversation about it.
The dragon is my chosen symbol of this service. It is the way of the drui. Always has been.

[celticmodes]

I'm a Unitarian Universalist. Can I call myself a DrUUid?

[Merlyn]

Can I call myself a DrUUid

I like that.

Many seem to feel Christ is their druid. In a sense, it was Christ and his teachings that brought me into spirituality as a young man. The message transcended the dogma, no matter how many truths were lost rewritten or made up about the life Christ had.

Of those who brought this message to me were the Quakers. Kind of an odd little bunch, my mom and grandma were a part of. The meeting house was a humble place, no priest, no sermon, just the members. We each were invited to speak our minds and hearts, There were no bibles. The old ways of the tree lore, the wealth of the heart, the kind meaning of life was the message always. Christ was the guiding light by his example, and it was always by example the teachings came. Quakerism in the day I learned it was a lot like druidry, in the early sense, as no written material, no book, no priest, and no commandments were any part of it. The creative light within was to be our guide, and the act of forgiveness was to be our most powerful message.

DrUUids will always be welcome in my circle.

Merlyn

[Turtle]

If I talk about my spirituality at all I call my self druid, as opposed to Druid, because modern Druidry is my inspiration. Actually I am in the ovate grade now. But very few people understand anything about Druidry, OBOD or otherwise and that includes most of the Wicca people I used to hang around with.

No one needs put me in my place, I know I am nothing like the druids of old nor do I have any Celtic lineage to my knowledge. I felt particulary humble when I was in Ireland and if any one there would have asked me I would put it as I have an active interest in Druidry, which is probably the most honest answer in any circumstance that I can come up with.

Turtle

[Merlyn]

I have an active interest in Druidry

I think that is as accurate as anyone can be.

How each of us finds druidism, our path to it is one of the things I love the most about it.

[morgane_snowy_owl]

Hello guys,

I knew there couldn't be just one answer to these questions, and I've read your answers and points of view with great interest. It's just great to get to know more about the philosophy of other OBODs.

treegod,
yes, the training is circular, as with most things in druidry. Dahm suggested a few years back that people should receive gwers 1 of the bardic grade at the end of their druidic training, just to illustrate that you're never "done" with your training, it's something that you will revisit, understand differently, grow with. That's the beauty of being alive, I think...

I also love your beautiful nuances about "natural progression", and the nuances about personal and spiritual experience and progression as well.

Thank you also, for what you said about SERVING. I was searching for a way to better express how I felt, as I progressed in my life and defined my personal mission more and more, and being of service is definitely a good way to grasp this concept and let it show me the way, inwardly and outwardly. This is definitely what I'm aiming for.

As for the concept of authority, I guess it all comes to whether or not you let a person, a text, a concept, have authority over you. And there is a healthy way and an unhealthy way to do that. You described it very well: freedom of choice remains, and accepting the authority means giving it your respect. Couldn't agree more.

Merlyn,
I hear you. It is very human to see things from a hierarchical point of view. When I grasped the celtic view of reincarnation, the progression from Annwyn to Abred in the Great Cauldron, my whole worldview changed. Going through the cycle, getting back where you started, but at the same time being different from who you were when you started because of all you have experienced and learned on your journey, is beautiful and feels right... not inferior or negative like so many people would see it (you're just going in circles!!!!). However, your mention of "spell casters" sounds... negative. Yet there is druid magic if I'm not mistaken (still not an Ovate! ). What makes you differentiate druidry from spell casting?

In your second post, you talked about "drui". What does that word mean to you?

Donata,
I agree completely with the views you described in your first paragraph. In the rest of your post, your tone became much more involved and personal. I thank you for taking the time to write all this, and for also talking about how this event made you feel... Let's clear any misunderstanding: there's a difference between questioning what a more experienced druid has to say about druids, titles, and the different traditions in it, and questionning who I am, where I stand, and what my personal value is...

nightfalls,
ah, WOW... Hear about it often, never played it, will look into it one day!

celticmodes,
it's done, you're now a drUUid to me! Shall I print cards?

turtle,
thank you for your gentle message, it came from the heart and I appreciated reading about your opinion on this.

Okay, time to grab lunch! Have a great day!

[treegod]

treegod,
yes, the training is circular, as with most things in druidry. Dahm suggested a few years back that people should receive gwers 1 of the bardic grade at the end of their druidic training, just to illustrate that you're never "done" with your training, it's something that you will revisit, understand differently, grow with. That's the beauty of being alive, I think...

I think that was Merlyn. And he's right cos it mentions it in Ovate Gra.... oops said too much already

But I'm glad to to be of service to you

[morgane_snowy_owl]

treegod,
yes, the training is circular, as with most things in druidry. Dahm suggested a few years back that people should receive gwers 1 of the bardic grade at the end of their druidic training, just to illustrate that you're never "done" with your training, it's something that you will revisit, understand differently, grow with. That's the beauty of being alive, I think...

I think that was Merlyn. And he's right cos it mentions it in Ovate Gra.... oops said too much already

But I'm glad to to be of service to you

tee hee, I was thinking of the podcasts when I wrote that, but you're right, Merlyn is right on the same wavelength!

so, errrrrrr.... what else do they say in the Ovate Gra??