Morality derives not of religion.

[Attila]

Morality derives not of religion.

I may contradict myself here a tad as I am a strong advocate of secular ethics, even though I have argued that druidry is more than atheism.

Basis 1;
In my experience while one may learn much from deities, the awens and the divine infinite/universal of ceugant, however I have never experienced direct intervention from such sources. Indeed it would seam something of a contradiction if on the one hand man is not to be manipulated like puppets, and then on the other hand divinity then contradicted such wisdom by directly intervening in earthly affairs.

Nothing stays the same in our transient world, hence it would be something of a folly to denote dogmatic morals by which all things must obey. As we have discussed before, ‘every landscape has its own vocabulary’, even the simple act of returning to the same place brings a different story to what that place means. Morals therefore are something we have in reserve - if you will, we have a set of ideas about what is right and wrong [and even they can change], yet certainly almost any set of circumstances demands wisdom in how they are to be used.

Basis2;
Can you think of a single moral which does derive from the ‘god’/s’? ~ throughout time it has been man with much contemplation upon societal effect, who has devised our ethics, standards and morals. Indeed most if not all morals derive from such issues e.g. why do we marry, why not have the freedom of each other? Are we each others possessions? Obviously freedom would be better served if we did not try to own each other, however there are real and deadly issues to be addressed [std’s, abuse of affections etc]. different societies have addressed this in different ways e.g. in ancient times jews would marry as young as 12 yrs old to avoid conception out of wedlock, where marriage to a single person rather than sex with many is one way to avoid problems with std’s. the ancient Britons sometimes lived in communes, where sex within that commune allowed for a certain amount of freedom, both of these and any other societal morals have their deficits and benefits, there is no particularly right or wrong way. How we have it now I do believe is probably the best way so far […there is always room for improvement!], we have freedom to find love and express that in many ways, though most people as with any system usually end up getting married and have the freedom to move on if that fails.

It seams that the best way is simply to allow people their choice rather than a given dictated one, if things are allowed to happen naturally they tend to work themselves out, many more problems are found in the very attempt at manipulation of peoples affairs ~ though equally guidance is always important too.

[DJ Droood]

In my experience while one may learn much from deities, the awens and the divine infinite/universal of ceugant,

I learned of the awen and ceugant from Philip...although maybe he is a bit demi-gody now, especially in light of the druid ruling in the UK.

[Attila]

I learned of the Awen and ceugant from Philip...although maybe he is a bit demi-gody now, especially in light of the druid ruling in the UK.

Ha-ha for sure yes , it is perhaps a little boring though, being made an official religion ~ whats in it for us rebels and who's gonna decide what that official religion is. I wrote this in response to certain people [daily mail and other Nazis] stating that our morals derive from Judeo-Christianity, I presume inferring that anything else is wrong.

[DJ Droood]

I wrote this in response to certain people [daily mail and other Nazis] stating that our morals derive from Judeo-Christianity, I presume inferring that anything else is wrong.

I think this might be part of a broader campaign building steam in Europe, although the shape it will taken is still up in the air...Angela Merkel just made some jaw-dropping comments about how multi-culturalism has failed in Germany and how their values are "Judeo-Christian"-based. Very surprising, given Germany's history, but looking at what is going on in France and Switzerland and other European countries, it seems to be a "rising tide" of opinion. I would argue, probably as you do, that modern liberal, secular ethics and values..morals, even..have more to do with the Enlightenment and Voltaire and various social justice movements...Karl Marx, even..(although that name may make a few Americans poop their pants!)... than Iron Age monotheism, and there isn't really much difference between what they are afraid of..let's face it...Islam....and what they escaped from...Christianity. So you have this confusion of modern liberal secularists, greying and dying traditional Christians and racists/nationalists all pointing fingers and getting panicky....they seem to have found a common enemy, but they hardly share a common cause.

In fact, Islam shares much in common with the "Judeo-Christian values" that yoked Europe for centuries...you would think the traditionalists would welcome this.

[Attila]

I think this might be part of a broader campaign building steam in Europe, although the shape it will taken is still up in the air...Angela Merkel just made some jaw-dropping comments about how multi-culturalism has failed in Germany and how their values are "Judeo-Christian"-based. Very surprising, given Germany's history, but looking at what is going on in France and Switzerland and other European countries, it seems to be a "rising tide" of opinion. I would argue, probably as you do, that modern liberal, secular ethics and values..morals, even..have more to do with the Enlightenment and Voltaire and various social justice movements...Karl Marx, even..(although that name may make a few Americans poop their pants!)... than Iron Age monotheism, and there isn't really much difference between what they are afraid of..let's face it...Islam....and what they escaped from...Christianity. So you have this confusion of modern liberal secularists, greying and dying traditional Christians and racists/nationalists all pointing fingers and getting panicky....they seem to have found a common enemy, but they hardly share a common cause.

Hmm yes this worries me, for every force there is an equal and opposite, and like the forces of history, for every napoleon there’s a Wellington, it seams we are on the crux of an inverse wave. I have been to many forums even Nazi ones to get an understanding of this and none of the arguments make any sense, after all if I as a briton wanted to move to spain and have a full English breakfast then I can, if a muslim wants to come here and eat halal meat [or build a mosque etc] then they are infringing on our rights [there was a recent incident where a macdonolds would not serve bacon in a muslim area]. Double standards for sure.

Multiculturalism may not work in germany nor any place where people are viewed in an ‘us and them’ context, if people are kept to one side and in pockets then it is difficult for them to mix. The problem is racist to begin with, the germans allow ‘them’ in and then place them in certain areas. On the opposite side of things perhaps 1/5th of ones population being of other ethnicities, and a population to afraid of being called Nazis to say anything about it, that will surely create problems. I think cultures can be overwhelmed if it all happens to fast and in to greater proportions, and people have a right to identity which is somewhat compartmentalised [selfhood nationhood, family, culture etc], hence balance is called for.

I fear a massive anti movement though, as I have said on many forums; ‘weather the universalist or multicultural philosophy is right or wrong, doing anything about it will always be!’

The right wing thinks it has won in capitalist terms, so now it just has the public sector, the unemployed and immigration to attack. People are being labelled as lefties just for being tolerant, but you don’t get higher humanity and invention etc without that tolerance. I just hope there is not a return to a darker age.

[wolf560]

Morality derives not of religion.
Basis 1;
I have never experienced direct intervention from such sources.
Basis2;
Can you think of a single moral which does derive from the ‘god’/s’?

I am of an animistic belief wherein certain Archetypal traits are my dominant beliefs and I attempt to uphold what is centric to that belief.

To #1 above- No, I have not ever experienced direct (or indirect) intervention.
I believe that my Deities watch over me in some slight way and either approve or disapprove of my actions. As long as my basic intent to follow their Archetypal beliefs is accomplished they will either agree or disagree with my other choices. If I were to vary widely from their beliefs they would probably just stop dropping by to say hello after awhile.

To #2 above- No, there is not (and never will be) a moral that derives from a Deity.
This is by mere fact that if we had a stone with their writings upon it we would not now be discussing this (LOL). So by definition, everything we have of theirs was written by the hand of a mortal human being at some point in history.

[DJ Droood]

I have been to many forums even Nazi ones to get an understanding of this and none of the arguments make any sense

I too, drift over there...it is actually encouraging to see how divided they are internally, and not some monolithic force, which I guess could be said about any group. There are some who agree that "Judeao-Christian values" need to be upheld, and see the start of some sort of race war. There are others who are pagan and scoff at the idea of Europe being built on Judeao-Christian (especially Judeao) values. There are some who appreciate (yet still loath) the Muslims because they believe they are against Jews and homosexuals, too. But the majority are simply inarticulate, violent and very troubled.

The right wing thinks it has won in capitalist terms

yes, like King Pyrrhus.

[DaRC]

It is worrying when the Christian right-wing start to publicly push their values. Historical truth becomes over-ridden in the political polemics.
Then, suddenly, the Classical influence via Pythagoras (with his alleged links to Druidic learning) and subsequent philosophers begins to count for little. For me morality derives from philosophy not religion (which tends to be anti such free thinking).

With hard times, unemployment and uncertainty it is always the opportunity for the right wingers to push their agenda. I hope that these are taken as warnings by the sensible majority to push back against such intolerance.

[Dendrias]

Angela Merkel just made some jaw-dropping comments about how multi-culturalism has failed in Germany and how their values are "Judeo-Christian"-based. Very surprising, given Germany's history,

Why? Is Germany's history full of nazism? My former, very conservative (in German terms) teacher used to say, that what else was alien to judaeo-christian values (and of these of humanism and the ideas of the enlightenment) if not nazism?

[DJ Droood]

Is Germany's history full of nazism?

ummm..yes?

[Attila]

^^^ lol I don’t think germany is full of nazis and it was a very short period in their history, also it was one where the king of England agreed with them, we were coming out of the depression and germany had to pay loads of money to the allies in accordance to the treaty of Versailles. These days contemporary Nazis are a very small percentage, and though I worry that times like these could explode into something similar, I expect the last place that will come form will be germany.

wolf560

To #1 above- No, I have not ever experienced direct (or indirect) intervention.
I believe that my Deities watch over me in some slight way and either approve or disapprove of my actions. As long as my basic intent to follow their Archetypal beliefs is accomplished they will either agree or disagree with my other choices. If I were to vary widely from their beliefs they would probably just stop dropping by to say hello after awhile.

I would think of that as indirect intervention of sorts, kinda like a teacher can let you know if you are straying off the path, though I have found that even when I have gone off the path somewhat I usually find it was meant to be, such that I end up back on the path. When I look back I realise I wouldn’t have learned ‘xyz’ without the detour, I often wonder if there is no specific track our life-train runs upon, we just end up stumbling into the right station.

Yup I agree that even now with some contemplating religious doctrine is written by man, the pope says don’t use condoms this could hardly have been written in stone thousands of years ago.

DJ Droood

I agree with what you said, and I think there has long been a danger that paganism can be used in the wrong way, the ancients weren’t racist [at least in a ‘hate politics’ way], wars were fought over just about any other reason bar that [so I suppose they were sexist lols].

yes, like King Pyrrhus.

I am intrigued, please elaborate?

DaRC

I agree entirely, morals derive of philosophical reflection upon real world societal affairs, I expect the pagans also used the gods as backup.

With hard times, unemployment and uncertainty it is always the opportunity for the right wingers to push their agenda. I hope that these are taken as warnings by the sensible majority to push back against such intolerance.

Indeed, I hope so to. Well it seams anyway that here in Britain the BNP party has fallen into an abyss [lost much of their support], and that people are satisfied that a conservative govt will do ‘enough’ without going to ridiculous extremes. Multiculturalism has long needed to address that vast gap between its idealism and how people feel!

Here’s how I see it from a post on a political forum [it seams to be a big issue atm]…

My real life experience of multiculture; some immigration is good, mass immigration is bad…

I live in a smallish village where there are a few families from other cultures, some mixed some not. My experience is that my good friend and best man at my wedding was black, he died from cancer at only 30 and I was devastated, I didn’t even think of him as black as he was simply my mate. On the other hand when I lived in London prior to that it was a complete contrast in experience, I found a lot of mixing but I also found a lot of racism esp casual racism [not quite hatred just a general dislike], I even experienced a lot of racism towards we English which at first seams a bit much in our own country [comparatively we are all tribes here].

It seams to me that when you clump groups of people from different ethnicities together in one area, then this facilitates a kind of ‘tribalism’ and a breeding ground for racism. Although I think the racism is naturally there in all of us to some degree, I feel this is exasperated by this tribalism. I think mass migration is never a good thing especially when helped by the state, if you let immigration happen naturally with nations of roughly similar wealth, then I doubt if you would even get mass migration.

[Dendrias]

For whatever reason, dear DJ Droood, You chose to vilify my fathers who have suffered under a regime they neither chose nor approved of, who were certain it is best to live with humanism's values, whose thoughts were inspired and influenced by Jewish thoughts, please believe me, Your utterance is nothing more than offending b.s..

[Attila]

Dendrias hi

Yea my grandmother was jewish so I suppose I am ¼ jew, but to me it makes no difference as we are all just humans, period. It is easy for us in Britain to think WWII germany was 100% Nazi, but of course it was not, lets face it we are not educated much to the contrary. I don’t think DJ Droood meant it quite the was it could easily be perceived as and did add a question mark at the end inferring such.

[DJ Droood]

yes, like King Pyrrhus.

I am intrigued, please elaborate?

A victory, but at what cost? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhic_victory

[DJ Droood]

Your utterance is nothing more than offending b.s..

if you search around in the "help" section, you can probably figure out how to set me to "ignore".

[Attila]

^^^ a little undiplomatic perhaps?

A victory, but at what cost? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhic_victory

Oh I see, like when he beat the romans but lost a vast amount of men. I am not so sure if the conservatives lost anything, even 3 terms of labour did little to change anything because they were too afraid of being labelled left wing, so it seams that in the long haul the tories continue to gain victory. ...Bit like the Romans against Pyrrhus, they could replenish their armies far easier so eventually won.

[wolf560]

I am not a "Nazi-Lover"

The German National Socialist Party was less than 20% of the German population.
By comparison the United Kingdom, the United States, and Canada all had National Socialist Parties as well so the Germans were not the only one. Many Wehrmacht Commanders did not want Nazi member soldiers and some managed to actually send them back (Rommel repeatedly sent back Nazi replacements in favor of 'more stable' soldiers)

6 million Jews were killed by the NAZI's true and we continue to look upon this as the single greatest evil event in history... but...........

Lets try a look at "Evil in World War Two" again for old times sake... shall we?

Hamburg Germany; July 1943- 50,000 dead (Allied) 250,000 (German)
Dresden Germany; February 1945- 30,000 dead (Allied) 200,000 (German)
Six month Air campaign Japan; July 1945- 500,000 dead (Allied) millions (Japan)
Hiroshima, Japan; August 1945- 200,000 dead (Allied) 450,000 (Japan)

...and my personal favorite....
During WWII Stalin killed 31,000,000 people (Jews, Poles, Germans, Ukrainians, Georgians, etc.) Prior to this he had already killed millions; killing his own officers corps and frequent pogroms in Ukraine, Georgia, and Poland as an example. Conservative estimate show 40,000,000 higher estimates go up to 200,000,000.
At the end of WWII the Soviet Regime then put up a wall through the middle of Europe and continued to kill and suppress Eastern Europeans until 1990.

The Hamburg and Tokyo bombings made especially deep emotional scars as I read what we did to the civilian population of Germany and Japan from 1941 to 1945.

In short; our policy was to bomb them then drop fire sticks that glowed at 1700 degrees fahrenheit 12 hours later. We then would drop bombs 12 hours after that and fire sticks 12 hours after that. The resultant Firestorm in Hamburg actually is responsible for sucking down 20 some-odd Allied light bombers that were flying 15,000 feet above the town. It reached tornadic speeds in the streets and people were boiled alive in the river as they sought refuge. Day s later when rescuers finally made it to the bomb shelters in the center of town they found no survivors.....

All of the bomb shelters were filled with people that had either suffocated or had melted to death in the intense heat of the fire storms.


So enough of Nazi's..... Soviets.... Barbarous Huns.... Marauding Spanish Moors.... and all the rest of humanity that decided to wipe out their neighbors....

While I'm on a roll.... King David was commanded by God to annihilate seven nearby tribes and not let let a single man woman or child survive.... to even kill the tribal leaders and the religious leaders as well

"Thou shalt not suffer a Witch to Live".... which in reality was "Thou shalt not suffer a Snake to Live" (the opposing tribes worshiped snakes I guess)

In the end, maybe humanity is Evil and us individual humans are just trying to the best we can to survive without harming someone else....

[DJ Droood]

In the end, maybe humanity is Evil and us individual humans are just trying to the best we can to survive without harming someone else....

I don't believe "humanity is evil"..that is some of the monothiest/gnostic stuff I think has been around for too long...but still, many people believe that, which is why I though Angela Merkel's recent jaw-dropping comments about how multi-culturalism has failed in Germany and how their values are "Judeo-Christian"-based were surprising, given Germany's 20th century history, but looking at what is going on in France and Switzerland and other European countries, it seems to be a "rising tide" of opinion. Obviously it is a topic that robs some people of their reason, so to introduce it into the political debate is surprising..I wonder what her real motive is?

By comparison the United Kingdom, the United States, and Canada all had National Socialist Parties as well so the Germans were not the only one.

Canada never did..sympathizers, for sure, but never a National Socialist Party, at least not until the 1960's when:

In 1965 and 1966, the Canadian Jewish Congress helped organize the fledgling Canadian Nazi Party. That sounds crazy, but it's true, and I wrote about it in Shakedown, my new book about Canada's human rights commissions.

This is from Ezra Levant , a well know Canadian journalist, not a right-wing kook..actually, he is a right-wing kook, but one that the establishment embraces...not of the violent variety.

...but that is neither here nor there, except as another example of how "religion" is usually at the trailing edge of "morality".

[Attila]

So what’s the moral; power without accountability is the greatest of evils, it doesn’t matter what politics they use, nor if it’s the state, religion or crazed dictators, give people too much power and they will abuse it.

Rant;
Take note that some banking institutions are more powerful than some states, it is not just left wing statism where problems lay, the private sector is way more powerful, and we currently have a govt [in Britain] which just picks on the public sector [even though they are only providing services too] and the most unfortunate in society. Its all about the power of the state [or any power group] Vs the power of the individual, but don’t forget that the state comes in many guises.

[wolf560]

OK,

I just read the article in the Guardian (hopefully that is a reliable forum...)
It appears to be saying that Merkel is finally tired of the Arabic/ Turkish influx.

Merkel said too little had been required of immigrants... they should learn German in order to cope in school and take advantage of opportunities in the labour market.

If this is actually the gist of what she is aiming at then I have to agree.
If anyone goes to an Arabic state, you change everything for fear of the Sharia Law.
You change to their ideology but they do not believe they should change to ours.
I will never agree to allowing women in burqas to board an plane without an inspection...

For me; when you immigrate to another country it is your responsibility to blend into the community and not the duty of the community to change everything for new comer.

I happen to like Australia's stance

Education Minister Brendan Nelson later told reporters that Muslims who did not want to accept local values should "clear off". "Basically, people who don't want to be Australians, and they don't want to live by Australian values and understand them, well then they can basically clear off,"

If Merkel is taking a 'sottovoce' angle towards Muslims then I would have to agree with the statements as any immigrant needs to learn the customs and language of their new country. If they cannot do that, then why did they go there to begin with?