My obstacle with italian pagans

[FoxPhantom]

And I see things changed again on a thread about Italian pagans, Bright side is there is something you agree on a holiday.

Attila,

I agree, Christianity has fallen short on " beasts " and the reverence of the natural world. That is one thing paganism has an upper hand on. That is a major reason I have chosen to follow a druidic path. Druidry has the potential to align me more spiritually with nature than Christianity alone ever could.

I too agree that Paganism does have a view for the world of nature.
and it sounds like you have a pretty well reasoned way of looking Hawthorn.

[Huathe]

Thank You FoxPhantom. Druidry is for me, simply a path that I can better use to align my self with the natural world that we are all a part of. If I were so minded I could use paganism probably to do the same but my beliefs are too strong with Christianity to let that religion go ( No offense to any pagans here ). Modern druidry's apparent flexibility hopefully will enable me to better perceive the spirituality of nature.

Druidry has changed since ancient times and according to some died out for a huge length of time. However bardic teachings lived on until the medieval period and neo-druidry took over in the 1700's. The 20th century saw druidry both change and grow immensely. None of us really know how the ancients really practiced. To say " They did this they did that " is difficult. They left no written records. We can assume from the Roman writers and Christian Monks that they were Pagan. Modern Neo-Druidry is probably much different. Many would say that " Real " druids don't exist anymore and that modern Neo-Druidry has re-invented the druids. My point is " how can some argue about people changing the ways of druidry when so little is known about it's ancient past? " Modern Druidry is largely an invention by a few individuals like Iolo morganwg started in the romanesque period and it has evolved since then. Especially from the 1960's onward. It is still evolving and changing to this day.

To me, druidry, is druidry if it's core is the sacredness of the natural world with teachings of Celtic tradition backing it. However other spiritual traditions could be used too. Like those of the Native Americans. Religion is generally a part of druidry and so I integrated mine. Christianity. I did do some research before starting my path. Reading about druidry on the OBOD and NOD websites, and some others. According to OBOD and NOD my views fit in. If it said " No Christians, etc " I would not be here and would have looked for another way to express my " nature spirituality ". I just feel close to nature and the celts and druidism seemed right for me. But I am found some that disagree.....

On druidry, I am only a student. But one willing to learn, even if I don't always agree with what is said. I do speak...but I also listen....

And, yes. I am wordy again. But polite.

[Attila]

I don’t think druidry died out completely, you have always had ‘cunning men’ herbalists and other ‘witches’. anyone who seeks it will find it, the magic is in the air so to say.

So basically we are saying that there are add-on druids and druids? Well the part timers shouldn’t be telling the full timers what their trade is should they. …or anything to such ends.

The part timers could just be naturalist christians you know! why get involved with other religions if you believe in christianity?

[Attila]

Hmm upon reflection, I had a massive fall out [at another forum] with Nazis when I said I was part jewish and they were ‘Germanic preservationists’, so in that light I would invite all and sundry to join druidry no matter what their religion. I never thought of inverting my arguments like that before, mainly because I though it would change druidry into something else, but its up to us to offer up suitable arguments to stop that.

As long as obod and other orders are reasonable, universalist and listen, then they wont allow anyone in particular to force druidry in any given direction.

My only worry is that Christians will take over the reigns at some point and turn druidry into a form of Christianity and push the rest of us out. However perhaps my fears are unfounded and even if that did happen then the real druids would just start up their own orders.

[DJ Droood]

I don’t think druidry died out completely, you have always had ‘cunning men’ herbalists and other ‘witches’.

Do you think? I think the herbalists and healers and soothsayers were always "of the people" and existed before the druids showed up and after they became Christian abbots.

[DJ Droood]

My only worry is that Christians will take over the reigns at some point and turn druidry into a form of Christianity and push the rest of us out. However perhaps my fears are unfounded and even if that did happen then the real druids would just start up their own orders.

We have a vast marketplace...a shopping mall....of ideas to browse in...at one time, Christianity was a clever and fresh spiritual system that was probably a needed antidote to hoary old Greek and Roman paganism. We've now had some time to think things through, however, and new ideas, like Evolution, have come along and the masses have more choice. In an unregulated market, I would have no fear of another Christian takeover, and I think druidry is still part of the unregulated black market. If the trouble makers in the UK would stop seeking official recognition and tax breaks and access to the House of Lords, maybe it will stay that way.

[Attila]

Do you think? I think the herbalists and healers and soothsayers were always "of the people" and existed before the druids showed up and after they became Christian abbots.

True, well many of us are just as into the old, old, religion as we are druidry, you know Stonehenge n all. I think it just went from stone circles to groves. If Christianity had embraced it and transformed it rather than took it over and denounced it then we would have no problem with it.

Christianity had its good points for sure, its just incapable of listening to good arguments and above all change [except to different denominations etc] ~ but that may be changing now.

[Huathe]

And naturally OBOD doesn't speak for "Druidry" as a whole, as no druid order does. It all boils down to personal choice -- if you say you are a christian druid, you are, period. If someone says you can't be, it's your choice to enter into a discussion, or to politely (or not so politely) ignore them.

peace /|\
Sonja

Isn't it time we respectfully got back to Eruannie's original post?

[Merlyn]

"A" Christian druid...
I look at it as Drui active in reforming the Judaism that the work of Christ, a rabbi who flipped the high Jewish priest on his ear, along with all others of the time, became when they later edited history and came up with the bible.

Not the other way around...

Simply, Drui: do and are not bound to be anything held in captivity of reconstruction, or hierarchy.... which brings me back to the original discussion... obstacle with Italian pagans.
The exclusive nature of some things considered "pagan" is much the same exclusive nature as religious hierarchy.

The wonderful thing about druidry now, today is the freedom from all that sort of "thing".
To consider Drui as pagan, is the crust of the biscuit, as Drui are now as they were then not by any confines having anything to do with being "a" pagan, or "a" anything else.
To be druid, to be of the drui, and to bring to light the inclusive nature of our own interactive way in reverence, love and duty to our mother earth, our humanity, nature and creative efforts and is uniquely different and should not be allowed to be confined by such terms made by the exclusive dogma of any other way, faith, religion or pagan practice.

Such is how I see it, and my own personal Druid way, we dragons just do not fit in any-one's predetermined classification.

[DJ Droood]

The wonderful thing about druidry now, today is the freedom from all that sort of "thing".
To consider Drui as pagan, is the crust of the biscuit, as Drui are now as they were then not by any confines having anything to do with being "a" pagan, or "a" anything else.
To be druid, to be of the drui, and to bring to light the inclusive nature of our own interactive way in reverence, love and duty to our mother earth, our humanity, nature and creative efforts and is uniquely different and should not be allowed to be confined by such terms made by the exclusive dogma of any other way, faith, religion or pagan practice.

beautiful Merlyn....and more spiritually elevating than simply thinking of druidry as "spoilers" to be "added on" to the back end of a Jesus Chrysler.

[Ghostrider]

Hmmm.. interesting thread... I missed out again me thinks

For me, Druidry was a guide-line into paganism.
Nowadays, I call myself a Heathen Druid, and more often a Heathen, period.

I think the 'Christian' Druids should have the same privilige. I would also like to point out that the Christian Drui are also PAGANS.
What seems to be confusing people is the idea that Christian Druids are members of the Big Ole CHURCH. Perhaps some do visit Church, however... the Church does not include Druidry, PERIOD. By calling themselves Druids, these people put themselves OUTSIDE the Church, without denouncing their deity. Some dude called God or J.C.. A Christian is someone who believes in Christ, not in the CHURCH.
It is possible to be a Druid and believe in J.C., as much as it's possible to be a Druid and believe in the Aesir, Dagda and all other non-Christian (ergo.. PAGAN) deities. In the same way, it is also possible to be a Druid and NOT believe in deities. I.m.o. you can be Druid and BELIEVE in science. You might not call it a RELIGION then, but that's up to the Druid him/her-self isn't it?

The statement that Druidry requires belief in Celtic deities is moot, as there are well over 200 'Celtic' deities, varying over location and tribes. And then we're not even talking about the tribes that intermingled Germanic and Celtic deities.
There is no ONE Druid-religion. There are many ways to come to Druidry. As many as there are deities and as many as there are individuals.

Just because we are often walking in the same direction, does not mean we all have the same destination.

[Huathe]

Well said, Ghostrider, Well said!!

[Ben Wood]

As someone who has been on a long spiritual journey, I've realised that you can find divine power in diverse ways and faiths. Pagans who insist on a firm litmus of 'belief' are merely incorporating the worst aspects of the Abrahamic Faiths into their mindset. Contemporary paganism, like many threads of Hinduism, Liberal Quakerism and Shintoism is sustained on the basis of Orthopraxy (common ritual, procedural or cultic practice) rather than orthodoxy (common beliefs). Why should it bother a Celtic polytheist what a Christian or Sufi druid believes about God, salvation or anything else? What really binds Druids together are a set of common ritual and cultural practices which, although they might lead to particular beliefs, do not predetermine them. The idea that contemporary Druids should all have the same beliefs (or hold certain people at 'arms length' as someone put it) is just a bad habit inherited from Creedal Christianity. It is unlikely that ancient druids had a unified belief system so why would modern druids insist on some kind of conformity? I'm a Quaker, a Druid, a frequent worshipper of Christ, Mithras, Hera and Brigid. Now does this make me a very strange person? Probably. Does it discount me from being a Druid? In my view no it doesn't. People have constantly told me that I have to fit into boxes or its 'all or nothing'. Such attitudes have generated so much heartache in me and I'm sure in others on here to. I now feel able to say- 'here I am, deal with it'. I hope that addresses the original post somewhat.

[reilz81]

the only issue i have with christian druids is how the coursework is written to make them feel more comfortable i think there should be a different set of lessons for christians or just abstract the lessons further from religion and focus on the other skills and structure involved in druidry also how on this forum it seems to generally be accepted that you shouldnt say things against any christian im not against all christians and i think its great that christians are branching out pardon the pun lol but really shouldnt matter if someone wants to talk about an experience with a christian that wasnt exactly good

and to the topic i can empathize with those you didnt like it usually takes alot of work to get away from the church so the fact that your christian and pagan would seem to them like cheating its like having your pie and eating it too but in the end it is your choice what you do and if you can feel comfortable in a part druid part christian faith/following then stick to your choices because if you believe what you are doing is right for you others opinions are worth less then a grain of dirt

anyway blessings on your journey and may it always be inspirational