Is Chosen Chief a Druid?

[Cwm]

Is the Druidry of the Chosen Chief really the teachings of the White Brotherhood of Bulgaria?
If so what he portrays as Druidry is in fact the Brotherhood's teachings...universal brotherhood, acceptance of all beliefs, coming of the Kingdom Of God (as per Jesus) and other esoteric christian teachings esp the significance of Light.
The mix of beliefs in Druidry would lend itself nicely to the way of the Brotherhood too.
Great! And Ross Nichols had some superb ideas too, along the christian gnostic line.
But how far is Druidry really a spiritual link to the Druids (as claimed in the Bardic course) rather than the teachings of the esoteric White Brotherhood?
So, then, is the chosen chief, Philip Carr-Gomm or Karr-Gom, a druid or a key member of the White Brotherhood or can he be both and still amalgamate the beliefs to give us a Brotherhood (Pagan, Christian, Hindu OBODies) happily disguised as Druidry?
As long as we all get an individual spiritual boost along our paths does it matter?
Does anyone care?
Bring it on esoteric Christ.

[Art]

Occasionally a post comes along that seems, at face value, to make somewhat limited sense and this seems to be one of those.
I’m not clear if this is intended as a criticism, an accolade, an inquiry or a statement. I think it would be advisable to ask for more information and clarification before even beginning to think about a response.

Please tell us more.

[wolf560]

Wow......

So many letters seemingly put together to form words and (somewhat) complete sentences.
Please Cwm, you need to simply give us something to go on.

It appears that you do not like what you have read but in exactly what way and what should be done instead is left apparently absent.

[Merlyn]

Can a holy book be toxic?

[Davin Raincloud]

This thread is inappropriate and should be closed by mods in my humble opinion.

I suggest to the OP, if you have a problem with the Chosen Chief and the Founder of OBOD, then you don't belong on this forum. This forum is here for OBOD members.

Take Trolling elsewhere.

[Philip]

Hi folks,
Someone has drawn my attention to this thread.The initial post is hard to understand, but I think the poster has read the entry on me in Wikipedia which states:
'In 1975 his Druid teacher died, and he followed a Bulgarian teacher, Omraam Mikhael Aivanhov for seven years, giving talks on his teachings and helping with the translation and publishing of his books into English. He also travelled to Bulgaria and studied the work of Aivanhov’s teacher, Peter Deunov, visiting Sofia annually for fourteen years, teaching Deunov’s Paneurhythmy dance in England and at Findhorn in Scotland.'
There is also a piece on the web here about my involvement with the Bulgarian group: http://www.esotericpublishing.com/dance ... xerpt.html
which the poster may have read.
In my blog I explain my involvement briefly. The full text is here: http://philipcarrgomm.wordpress.com/an- ... longchild/
Here is the relevant extract:
'Ross Nichols was the principal of a college in London, as well as the leader of the Order. My father became a teacher in his college and soon he was a family friend. I first met him when I was 11, and then when I was 16 I began training with him. I would visit his house once a week or so, after school. He would make me tea and then teach me. He was a very educated cultured man, and made no pretensions to be a guru. A little before he died, I met a Bulgarian spiritual teacher who had tremendous wit and charisma, called Omraam Mikhael Aivanhov, and he became a ‘guru’ for me, but after seven years I left his movement. His philosophy felt too dualistic and in the end I realised that culture offers a more lasting gift than charisma.'
Someone commented on that post:
Philip, Interesting to read your interview. I would however challenge your assertion that Omraam Mikhael Aivanhov had wit and charisma, (but apparently not much else?)and was too ‘dualistic’ I would suggest that you do him a great disservice, with over 50 volumes currently in print and translated in over 10 languages, he is anything but a flash in the pan as you seem to imply. From my understanding, he gave over 5000 lectures to thousands of people at different levels of interest and evolution. He certainly talks about unity in some of his work. I would suggest you take a closer look at his work it might surprise you.))
By: Duncan on December 11, 2009
I replied: 'Hi Duncan, the ‘apparently not much else’ is an inference you have made, but is not what I said or was trying to imply (nor that his work was a ‘flash in the pan’). I did, however say that I felt his work was too dualistic for me, but then in many ways his work emerges out of that stream of tradition that can be seen as dualistic, informed as it is by the work of his teacher Peter Deunov, and to a lesser extent the Bogomil and esoteric Christian current, both of which can seem to me at times too dualistic. But ‘chacun a son gout’ and that gout often changes over time. I was very inspired by Mikhael Aivanhov’s work for many years but in the end it no longer appealed, but I fully accept that there is indeed much wisdom there.'
Hopefully this clarifies the questions raised in this thread!
Blessings,
Philip /|\

[Merlyn]

That is an interesting response Philip,
Not just to this question, but to the path of Drui.
The rich feel and expression of the inner light does indeed attract a following of sorts, a way to the question in teaching.
I and others have expressed the wandering we feel and the many ways we find our path.

Your answer, IMO is spot on.
I would ramble on as to why, however time is short and work calls.
Merlyn /|\

[Explorer]

Well.... if you step back far enough it's all the same isn't it?
And if you step back even further, then all becomes nothing.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_death_of_the_universe).
(wow, that was deep )

[Merlyn]

if you step back far enough it's all the same isn't it?

Yes... until the written version makes exclusions.
The duality...can a holy book be toxic?

Unfortunately...yes.

As a result, many are stepping back even further..

it will end in a whimper

From the deep,
Merlyn

[Cwm]

Thank you Philip. The response clarifies the matter for me.
One core concern of my guides is that Druidry will fragment too much
in the future. I hope you know what you have here. (Their words not mine.)
It was interesting to see how your influences have framed your thinking.

I do apologise if my thread was seen as critical or offensive to your fellow druids
or yourself for that matter, though I feel sure you have not seen my words in that way.

As to the cry to remove the thread I have no objection, afterall, if one were to question any high ranking religious as I have done, without being his equal, then the words would be removed.

Apologies again for my involvement.
I shall remain unquestioning.
Your books are fabulous by the way. My path has benefited beyond measure.
Cwm.

[inis]

if one were to question any high ranking religious as I have done, without being his equal, then the words would be removed.
[...]
I shall remain unquestioning.

Hello Cwm,
that's what I like about druidry and the OBOD in particular: everybody is regarded as equal, and you do have the right to ask questions!

Maybe it would help if you told us something about you - you do not sound like an english native speaker, and maybe that has caused some disturbance, too (some people obviously had difficulties to understand your intentions, I think)?

Best Yule wishes,
inis

[wolf560]

So, then, is the chosen chief, Philip Carr-Gomm or Karr-Gom, a druid or a key member of the White Brotherhood or can he be both and still amalgamate the beliefs to give us a Brotherhood (Pagan, Christian, Hindu OBODies) happily disguised as Druidry?

I do apologise if my thread was seen as critical or offensive to your fellow druids or yourself for that matter, though I feel sure you have not seen my words in that way.

I saw your post as a disorganized rambling that seemed to both denigrate and postulate without really saying your position on the matter. It was almost as if you were inviting criticism and attack upon your posting.

My response was to use a lot of words as well in an effort to get you to see how obtuse your verbage was. Your title and initial words confused the issue greatly, and your use of words that could be taken as inflammatory should have been more carefully thought out.

I am thankful that Phillip was able to clear it up but it would have been far better if you had put your question in a simpler tone and perhaps explained yourself a little better.

The way in which you wrote your initial posting seemed to a lot of us to be inflammatory in the least and perhaps you should just try to use more open ended words in the future.

[Donata]

One core concern of my guides is that Druidry will fragment too much
in the future.

As I see it the only way to avoid 'fragmentation' is to impose dogma. Dogma limits and restricts and as such is far more a threat IMO than the fragmentation that may result in free and open inquiry and discussion.

I come from a background of a highly dogmatic religion where even my right to my own conscience was governed by the need to have a 'rightly formed conscience' which meant one formed by the dogma of the church. If I questioned this I committed the sin of pride. Dogma is a great way to instill fear and exercise control over others. It took me years to break away from that viewpoint.

I'm here because of the lack of dogma and the ability to form my own conscience. This carries responsibility with it and the requirement to think deeply about our values and what we form as our personal ethical principles. OBOD offers guidelines, not rules. Since we are free to interpret them for ourselves this leads to different interpretations, and thus, may be seen as fragmentation. If so, I celebrate it!

BB
Donata

[Bartholomew]

I think posts can seem fragmented and inflammatory perhaps if people are typing directly onto the forum without due thought or preparation as to the message they want to convey. Touch typing with no brain in gear or drunk perhaps as has been my case on more than one occasion. Just a couple of explanations really.
Synchronicity. I find when I start looking into a particular subject it crops up again in uexpected places. The White Brotherhood, I looked into some time ago and found links to the Ascended Masters and the Essenes. The Messianic prophecy is cropping up at the moment in a couple of places, with the arrival of universal peace and the Kingdom of God will reign throughout the world. The Kingdom of Light perhaps a more fitting description in our diverse world , where 2012 is significant and also "The House of David". I am ignorant on such matters and have only picked up things here and there, so if anyone can elaborate on any of this I would be very interested. Thanks.

[wolf560]

One core concern of my guides is that Druidry will fragment too much
in the future. I hope you know what you have here. (Their words not mine.) Cwm.

Let's return to discussing the questions at hand rather than whether or not a rambling disconnected post should be yanked or not from the board.

I was a very active member of several Druid groups for several years when the World Trade Center was struck by terrorists. A nearly continuous argument broke out across every discussion board that I was a member of; Druids, Witches, Shamans, Pagans, and Heathens all... The argument was "What should be done about this terrible thing?"

Without illuminating the argument itself, I will concentrate on the aftermath.....
I belonged to the OBOD, ADF, BDO, BCD, TDN, as well as four other Pagan networks which all seemed to fracture overnight. Members were getting into one heated argument after another both on and off the discussion boards. Whether 9-11 was the underlying reason for the sudden drop in membership in the BDO and TDN is probably a good debate for another time. What I noticed was that all of a sudden, the boards were either filled with flame wars or just empty. Of my 20 or so students, half of them left for good (some enlisting in the military; some going into hiding, fearing a 'draft').

The BCD (Bandarach College of Druidry) suffered an even more unique "fracture" since most of us in leadership positions were prior or active military. The Chief Druid, and Student Liaison were both US Army, the Chief Bard was UK Special Forces, and the Chief Seer was a high school teacher but we lost track of him just like everyone else. With every one of its governing members serving somehow our College simply fractured for good. Although I am still in contact with a few of them, most of the BCD members left and never returned.

Bottom line;
I am not worried at all... we Druids (and Pagans all) have already survived FAR worse...
All of the above happened in 2001-2002 and despite that MAJOR fracturing event I see all of the aforementioned groups returning to normalcy (somewhat). The BDO and BCD were probably the most affected with the BCD almost disintegrating and the BDO only just now beginning to rebuild its membership.

I would not be worried about a fracture later on unless something even more controversial were to occur that would get all the world's Pagans arguing like we did back in 2001-2002.

P.S. I was the BCD Student Liaison from 2000 - 2002; I was simply unable to maintain contact after I deployed to Iraq in 2002-2003. I lost all contact and am only now just beginning to re-establish contact with my fellow Druids worldwide.

[Philip]

Hello Cwm,

Just to comment on part of your reply:

"Apologies again for my involvement.
I shall remain unquestioning."

No need to apologize! Please don't remain unquestioning! Questions are what fire the soul - after all the idea of a spiritual 'Quest' is based on the idea of the Question: the big questions like 'Who am I" 'Why am I here?' 'What's the meaning of it all" etc! so please don't hold back. In OBOD we are all equal so please fee free to ask any questions you like!

Many blessings,

Philip /|\

[Merlyn]

http://www.answers.com/topic/white-brotherhood (A brief description,)
More exactly: http://beinsadouno.org/en

I can see how this was of interest to Philip, and the druid way. Having been formed as it was at the time, the OBOD and much of the traditional old ways were in a state of a cauldron, so to speak, growing to be what it is today.
Since: I have watched the OBOD and druidry in general come into it's own, become a tradition in its own right, it did have help and roots from many inspired groups much like the white brotherhood, Christianity, Wicca and help from many who felt the interconnected and inclusive nature we celebrate, as the diversity we cherish.

In just the time I have personally worked with the OBOD, gone through the course, and worked directly with members, druidry has trended more and more into its own kind of path, and less dependent on validation through other things. It is a bit like a good pot of chili, at a chili cook off. Each one has a slightly different flavor, just like each member has a different view. It is a vibrant and robust way to live, create, love and cherish life.

Is the Chosen Chief a druid?
I would say in all essence, yes. As simply as his nature is to be both brave enough to breath life into druidry, and to just as creatively nurture its growth and allow it to become what it is, he has inspired a learning and a thirst to learn in so many. And to me, yes that is the hallmark of the druid way.

In light,
Merlyn /|\

[wolf560]

Well said Merlyn...!!!

I must admit that I am very impressed with both this discussion board and the OBOD overall.
What I interacted with back in 2002 was truly "in the cauldron" as you put it.

The OBOD has certainly blossomed since then and I am glad to be associated here.

[DaRC]

Ahh well you learn something every day By the time I finally had time to look up White Brotherhood of Bulgaria Philip has explained already. I also like the fact that everyone has the right to question. Perhaps the OP could have been worded better, perhaps by including links to what the White Brotherhood was (I must admit it conjures up images of the US deep south ) but writing posts is a learnt skill often tricky to those unfamiliar with the vagaries and potential flame-wars of internet forums.

With regards to fragmentation - what some may see as fragmentation I see as nature experimenting; within the garden as seeds cross fertilize and mutate this diversity allows nature to 'cover her bases'. Mutation allows reaction to changes in environment.
Whilst dogma leads to monoculture, just look at the banana - clones of one another, unfertile and at risk from extinction due to fungus like the Panama Disease. (http://www.plantmanagementnetwork.org/pub/php/management/bananapanama/)
So where some see diversity (or fragmentation) as weakness I see it as strength.

[Merlyn]

Fragmentation, would not be the word I would use.
I see druidry as a freedom to branch off while still being a vital part of the tree. This is indeed a stregnth.

Try that with evangelistic monotheism
Unlike anything "white" or lineage based, what has grown from druidry is unique. Just as importantly, the unique quality is inclusive by way of core value to what is good in all other spiritual understandings. This however is not reciprocated, unfortunately, often. Most of the discord I have seen comes from a coveting nature, something humanity groaps at all too often. This is most often traced to an oppression historically, yet, druidism is not really democratic in nature. This causes some confusion, now & then.

The blossoming of Druidism has been inspired by all and this is a testament to those, including Philip, who felt the need to plant a seed in thought, purely as it was. Just as real is the need to avoid letting druidry fall into the realms often oppressed, and the careful judgment to select the wheat from the chaff, discard ideas of hierarchy, and encourage questions, celebrate diversity, are some of the reasons why.

This all however is not to discourage the brother and sister forms of druidry, the roots and all. OBOD druidism is an evolved form, and to discount our roots would be self defeating. The wisdom to allow questions has been and is one of the basic values, the very fertile ground of the living tradition, value and love of all existance, we see as druidism. It is from the evolving and living path druidism is, that we step away from the "things" dogmas and set-in-stone ideals often failing our world, environment and future. "Why are we here today" is and must be a question we ask of ourselves and should be a question asked to the heart, not the mind.

In essence, I see druidism as an active progression formed by each question, each meditation, every chanting breath.
In this is the difference and brings unique diversity.

"Am I a druid?" is perhaps the most asked question.
To this is my own answer: rather be Drui in the active sense, there is no need to be "a" druid. From this will come being Drui by walking the walk as a way not a thing.

Merlyn /|\