Heathenry/Druidry "Confliction"

[Ice]

Great post DaRC, it reminds me of a pilgramage I once took to further my research into spiritual healing. I started a large scale project on this many years ago, gathering data as well as practising spiritually and within my work based profession. I'm a fan of the facts and as I journeyed I became more and more aware of the indescrepancies masked by spirituality that led directly to (what amounted to) much more than Heathenry/Druidic "confliction".

I rediscovered the Goddess...whored, abused, commercialised and exploited. The horror of it made me sick. I wept (I'm religious). Others felt the same way, we could write a whole website and those who verbalised this were punished by slander and exclusion amongst other things. Being an opinionated soul (or chopsy to coin a local phrase) I was never going to fit in, I don't toe the party line. I believe in freedom of speech for all and they did invite me back twice I still have the (non tampered with) documentation.

Now, I ask again, why would you do this? Why create unnecessary "confliction" ? It's as plain as my mystical new glasses.We've been here before I prefer the black framed ones, they suit me!

I'm off to look for the cat....

I didn't like the book at all... I was very clear in this.

[leaves]

I find the idea of going to a alternate plain that is similar to our own or some mystical "heaven" a bit far fetched (No offense to anyone). So there is a conflict I have with Heathenry.

Hi Motholfr, you may want to do some more research before writing off the Heathen concept of the afterlife - actually, from a scholarly point of view, neither of the scenarios you mention here are considered historically accurate. I recommend searching afterlife, ancestors, or any other topics here: asatrulore.org - this is probably the best discussion board for historically accurately reconstructed Heathenism.

An article on the topic is here: http://www.angelfire.com/nm/seidhman/gravemound.pdf
Here is an excerpt to get you started:
The most striking evidence of the Germanic heathen’s sense of an Afterlife is
also the least surprising since it directly reflects the Afterlife concepts of the
pre-Hellenistic Greeks, Jews, Balts, Slavs, and Celts to a large degree: life after
death is essentially a continuation of life in the grave. Life within the grave
could be tedious, boring, tiring, cold, social and lonely. The comforts of home
were to be provided by the family with the collection of grave goods left with the
body or the ashes/ bones of cremation and through the periodic offerings left
for the venerated dead in exchange the one skill the dead were known to possess
in abundance: protection. The dead could protect the home and familial lands
from invasion by ill-luck, ill-health and by men ill-disposed towards the family.
Having one’s dead in the ground offered the odal-lands protection from above
by the living and from below by the dead.
...
The gravemound remained the standard concept of a heathen Afterlife in
spite of the apparent confusing array of destinations after death described by
modern authors (as opposed to researchers). There appears to be little or no
evidence that the soul was ever conceptually viewed as being separable from the
body, i.e. dualistic, but could be sent on special errands from its home in the
body always to return to its corpse after the task was accomplished.

I think you will find, with a bit of research, that the ancient Celts and ancient Heathens had more in common with each other than modern Druids have with either... so it is less a "confliction" of Germanic vs Celtic than it is a difference between modern and ancient (I should say Iron-Age) worldviews. And also, the ancient Celts were pretty much as aggressive as the ancient Heathens... you just haven't run into that information yet.

[Dendrias]

The most striking evidence of the Germanic heathen’s sense of an Afterlife is
also the least surprising since it directly reflects the Afterlife concepts of the
pre-Hellenistic Greeks, Jews, Balts, Slavs, and Celts to a large degree

What kind of "evidence" is that?
I'm just asking, because, as far as I know, one of the earliest pieces of European literature, which is pre-hellenistic Greek, of course (Homer's Odyssee), has got the concept of a soul going to Hades. In pre-hellenistic Greek literature the topos of the soul being seperated from the body is very common, the idea behind death is never this, that the deceased person just lies around in this grave. So I would say:
life after death is essentially a continuation of life in the otherworld. In case of Hades it's simply "boring", without the sun, without consciousness.

If this would have been alien to the whole population, I'm not sure whether it would have survived until modern times. So, for conclusions about zeitgeist imo literature can't be excluded. But that's only the Greek parallel. Germanic literature is a bit spurious to me.
If You mean archaeological evidence ... well, I can see where the interpretation (!) is coming from.

[leaves]

Hi Dendrias,
I don't know the answer to the Greek question - I don't know Greek history or culture - what you quoted is from Bil Linzie's (I should have credited him in the first place) essay: Investigating the Afterlife Concepts
of the Norse Heathen: A Reconstructionist’s Approach Bil and other recons base their interpretations on historical research (including, yes, archeology) more than anything... so I imagine there is a reason for this statement but I don't know myself. You'll find an extensive bibliography at the end of that article so maybe the answer is there somewhere.

My understanding, from what I've read here and there, is that the grave is the otherworld (this goes for both Celtic and Germanic view), or the portal to such; as noninhabitants of that place, we don't really know its layout or dimensions, and we don't or can't travel there (there are exceptions I know in the Celtic lore - there are stories about certain special mortals entering graves on Samhain or other special days when the veil between the worlds is thin). I think the point is that the living community views the grave as the home of the ancestors (the dead community), and the emphasis is on the grave as place to honor the ancestors and connect with the ancestors when needed. I think Bil's point is that the roles of Hades and Hel came later.

I was thinking this info would be of interest to Motholfr, as he said that connection with the ancestors is important to him.

One example of this that we see in the "low mythology" is the Grimms fairytale of Cinderella. In the original fairytale, Cinderella visits the grave of her mother, basically to pray for help. It is there that she receives her dress and slippers to attend the ball. This tale implies that there can be an exchange between the living and the dead, and it happens at a specific place that is the portal between the two worlds - the grave.

[Ben Wood]

don't think the two really mix very well, and I don't tend to like the thought of being eclectic.

Just a follow-up question for you Motholfr: Why don't you like the thought of being eclectic? My feeling has always been that a need for consistency and 'sameness' is one of the unhealthy obsessions of the Western monotheism. I think paganism- in its honour of land and ancestors gives one the space to seek out sources of spiritual inspiration for oneself. Ancient pagans were always 'mixing'. If a particular god worked for them they tended to adopt it. Remember what the Venerable Bede tells us about King Redwald of the East Angles? He kept a heathen and Christian altar side by side- how very typically pagan! As a Heathen I don't think you need to worry about consistency or mixing regarding Heathenism and Druidry. I'd say you'll be in fine company. Just follow your insight and intuition. I'm a Quaker and a pagan with an altar presently containing an icon of the Virgin Mary and the god Thor. Go figure!

[cursuswalker]

At my last Druid Network Camp there was a Thor's Hammer Awen on display. I liked it.

This is as close as I can get to the design:

thor awen.jpg

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[reilz81]

that gewessi sounds very interesting, I've gone down a few paths to come to Druidism. I've taken what I liked and merged it with my own ideals, so I don't think its so much a confliction, as much as its just something you don't want to take on. So don't

[cursuswalker]

This is my contribution to Druid/Heathen reconciliation and mutual understanding:

RUNECATS!

1 FEHU KITTEHs.jpg

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2 URUZ KITTEHs.jpg

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3 THURISAZ KITTEHs.jpg

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More on request...

[Huathe]

Besides, IMO Druidry is not about who you are, it is about the land you are part of.

Well said, Katie! This is one thing that should bind all druids together, beyond anything else.

But of course, you find yourself in the process, or at least I have.

[illion]

I love those runecats

[cursuswalker]

I love those runecats

4 ANSUZ KITTEHs.jpg

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5 RAIDO KITTEHs.jpg

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6 KAUNAZ KITTEHs.jpg

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[illion]