dark side of druidry

[reilz81]

im wondering why there is no mention anywhere of the dark side of druidry the druids from how i understand it were all about balancing light and dark they cursed as much as they healed oh and if im posting this in the wrong place please move it

[Art]

It sounds as though you're confusing a late iron age social caste called Druids with the contemporary spiritual philosophy by the same name. As a general rule, we don't do a lot of multi generational cursing and that sort of thing. On the other hand, a case can be made that since each of us as individuals does tend to have a "dark" side of sorts it would be worth discussing. Besides.. most folks who really need cursing sooner or later do a fine job of self-inflicting.

[Bartholomew]

I think this is a very good topic, and one that should not be brushed aside lightly as irrelevent to Druidry today. The term Druid to many people, particularly Christians, in my experience conjures up images of the "The dark Arts". I'll use that term, although I don't like it. Three people who I have spoken to this week regarding Druids have automatically replied with this type of response. They say Oh yes they were a grisly bunch, taking part in human sacrifice, telling the future from human entrails, black magic and that type of thing. So although it is not relevent or applicable to Druidry today, maybe it is linked in the collective psyche. Loaded words for those outside Druidry appear to be magic and ritual. The only answer I can see to this is to bring such topics out into the open and discuss in a very transparent way. I have yet to experience any negative reaction from the word Buddhism.
Here at OBOD many paths such as Wicca, Paganism and Christianity are being brought together under one umbrella, which in my opinion is a fine and noble endeavour, but are we a minority who thinks this way? I'm sorry if this is negative. I am reflecting on my experienes over the past couple of years, in and out of the church, and also in my work as a holistic therapist.

[Lily]

It does get discussed, and to me, the answer is "maybe".

Maybe they performed human sacrifice.

• A couple of roman authors say so, but maybe that's just propaganda.
• Maybe some of the archeological evidence supports this, maybe not.
• As for cursing, that is also related in the literature, medieval irish sources exist, true. Maybe it was like today's UN resolutions, or a form of punishment by satire. Although it is also related that they were capable of making satire so acrid the victim could break out in boils
• Plus people have always tried to curse, still do today - some people will freely believe a "dark" attack on them has been made if they simply meet a series of misfortunes.

It's all a matter of interpretation.

• Druids were portrayed in a variety of different shades of light over the centuries, from despicable brutes to all-knowing philosphers of nature - every mindset made its pick and projected whatever they wanted into the vessel of "the druid" - because we know almost nothing for sure. Read one of Ronald Hutton's books if you want to know all the details.
• Also, followers of christianity, particularly the more vervent subset, and I'm going to go for this curveball, have a tendency to be extremely suspicious of, and blithely misrepresent, all that does not fit their dogma.
• And lastly, we have a very different conception of the value of a human life than people who were faced with death from today's "trivial" diseases and injuries on a daily basis. Being honored by the gods as the sacrifical victim might not have been as scary as it seems... food for thought

[deepwater]

I think every race or cast of people had a dark-side,,What was looked for or at for whatever reason,,Evolved,, As time and belief or maybe a better word Tolerance was achieved we as a people moved closer to what we are today,,we still have a dark-side we still kill each other and we still believe in something better is out there,,So centuries ago the inspection of a persons entrails may have evolved it to today's medical fields The use of plants and fungus to the pharmacy and some spices and herbs to others fields,,This is a never ending progress we live,,I am a Druid ,,but I don't feel I'm like any or many of your,,My instruction began over 55 years ago and much has evolved in my our and your beliefs,,many paths have wound their way into and out of the way we think and feel and many more will happen in our lives,,We will always have that dark-side,,Its what made us who we are and for some its a reminder that we don't want to return to the old ways,,Its not polite

[reilz81]

some very interesting replies i think most of the things that the medical fields do these days in the ancient times would of been called dark arts, how times change, and art no i know the differences, but i think that not talking about the dark ways, and learning how to defend against them, that we as druids are left open for attack. These are mostly peaceful times, so we dont have a great need for the dark, but it is still a part of all of us

an interesting afterthought is the fact religions like vudon(not sure if thats how its spelt)the religion of voodoo use the same dolls to do healing that they use to hex people

[Lily]

reilz, if YOU want to obsess about people being affected by their own gullibility, be my guest.

Why not trust that there are beneficial forces out there holding you in your druid work, as you are asking for the protection of Great Spirit, God and Goddess.

I've yet to come across a serious case of attack - usually the person claiming they were under attack was the case

[Bartholomew]

I beg to differ on that matter Lily and I don't intend to rehash a lot of what I have experienced in the last two years for two reasons. 1. What you focus on seems to increase in importance and 2. I have gone over the whys and wherefores, trying to see where I have gone wrong in my approach over and over again.
I will give a real life example of a situation which occurred about this time last year. A group of us (six ) had set up a charity to do free complementary therapies, tea and biscuits, two afternoons aweek in a small community hall. It was very successful with the local community attracting people from all age groups and had become a bit of a social event for many who had previously been isolated. We sold a few items to help fund ourselves and had funding from a couple of sources. One of our group had approached the parish council for additonal funding and two of their representatives came out to see what we were about with a list of questions and so on and had a look at our stock. We were selling new age type of things and a magazine which had a feature about pagans in there. We had left all the ordering of stock to one member, I was not involved in that side, and we just gave the nod of approval, seeing nothing wrong with any of it. None of us were practising Pagans or Druids, we comprised of me a Christian/Catholic, a spiritualist, and four non-church going Anglicans. So we were very surprised when we were informed by members of the community using our services that at the Sunday church service that they attended on a weekly basis the local vicar had warned them that there were Druids in the community and to avoid us. He was not generalising either as he specifically named the charity and what we were doing. He said, I think that we caused depression and were evil. One of them brought in the printed handout that he had distributed after the service, I may still have it somehwere. This caused a great deal of upset and anxiety for a couple of ladies who were then torn between loyalty to the church and us. We did not respond in any way other than to say that our intentions were good. We did not instigate anything at all. And I really don't want to talk about the Catholic church anymore, but things of a similar nature seem to occur there.

[Lily]

Bartholomew,

you misunderstood me.

I did not say members of other established religions (in your example christian) do not portray druids in a negative light. I agree this happens because there are these ideas out there.
Let me rephrase my somewhat curt post above:

I was responding to reilz' notion that there are "dark arts" out there, particularly within druidry, that can harm. My personal opinion is that these don't exist, but people may have their own beliefs about that and they can be my guest to continue entertaining those beliefs*. Aside my personal opinion, I have yet to come across a person whose idea that they are under a dark attack has any basis apart from within themselves.
And I was saying that in druidry**, we can trust that we are held (I'm not going to use the loaded word "protected") because we are asking beneficial forces to bless our work. And *I don't think preoccupying oneself with these negative ideas instead of trusting in the good is advantageous for development in the earlier steps in druidry. Or any stage. I simply don't concern myself with it.


**at least in the OBOD flavor of druidry

[Bartholomew]

I fully understand what you are saying Lily. As I said whatever we focus on grows in proportion to that focus. I have been under attack, it feels, for about three years. I don't feel in my heart that I went out of my way to attract this kind of negative behaviour, far from it.
To be honest the accummulation of things combined have been personally very demanding for me, and I have felt on more than one occasion as though I was going to crack up. But I do ask for protection and I will use that word, for I believe that if you are doing things with the right intention and for the common good you will be protected to a certain extent.
But realistically maybe there are bigger barriers out there to freedom of speech and belief/spirituality. It has been an eye opener for me and I am mature in years, not a young naive kid. That being said I feel that if you have not got some kind of inner strength, or support from others this type of experience could be potentially very damaging to someone. Perhaps the fact that I was late going into the church acted as a bit of a buffer as I had already explored other paths, however I was still shocked by this attitude in this day and age.
No experience is ever wasted though, so at the moment I am seeking respite in Buddhism, I suppose I am a bit weary.

[Lily]

but you understand that reilz, you and I are talking of two different things (at least I think we are, correct me if I am wrong): being misunderstood and outwardly treated negatively (in the face or behind one's back, same difference), which I think is/was happening to you, and "dark magic", yes?

[Bartholomew]

Maybe. Dark magic and negative intention towards another person with the purpose of causing harm probably originates from the same source.All magic must start with a thought, the same as any creative endeavour, it originates in the mind. Obvioulsy when that thought or action is carried out and you are aware of it, it is detrimental. If someone is sending negative thoughts intentions, spells via distance without you being aware is a different matter. Personally I don't believe that works. However for the seen and the unseen negative forces, my technique is to imagine mirrors all around me, my family and my home and reflect back anything to whoever is sending it, bounce off effect. Magic, imagination, intention all one.

[reilz81]

ok ill break this down a bit further in the art of herbalism there isnt just remedys for good theres also various poisons most of those were probally accedental but they still reside so we have in nature the 2 sides of the coin

and for the record im not for the misrepresentation of druids or any other path i just wanted a healthy descussion of the dark seeing there doesnt seem to be much mention of it here and im not obsessing far from it i never think about the dark but it is in all of us and in nature itself

[treegod]

Shadow Work is what first comes to mind

Are you ready to see what you're brushing under the "carpet" of your psyche?

[Bartholomew]

A very intimate question to be asked on a Monday morning, and only one that I would answer if posed by somebody who knows me very well or was acting as a qualified counsellor. I will return the question are you? Or have you the experience of doing so? That is the answer that springs to my mind anyhow.

[Badger Bob]

I think Treegod might just have been asking a rhetorical question...

But yes, shadow work. There is plenty of scope to work on the darker recesses within Druidry, working with ambivalent or potetially malevolent entities on many different levels. Whether these are seen as external forces or internal components of the psyche depends on the individual outlook but the work is similar no matter how they are viewed. It is difficult to walk the fine line between satire and cruelty without recognising the darker areas of your own existence, your own motivations and vices. Much of this is done in a very subtle way, by examining examples from mythology - tales such as those from the Mabinogion or the Ulster Cycle are full of people who act upon their own greed and prejudice and come to grief. Cursing is a matter of such gravity that it is impossible to curse another without causing a little damage to yourself and possibly the only damage will be to the curser rather than the accursed. For this reason I have found in my pre-OBOD training (not finished the OBOD course yet so obviously can't say on that score) that cursing is left to the individual to work out for themselves, the tools are there - satire, magical intent and a grounding in ritual - but the would-be curser is left to work out that final step for themselves.

As for the way religions see each other, I was in Italy when Roberto Baggio "came out" as a Buddhist. There were a lot of ugly pronouncements by priests shouting "devil worship" and "corrupting our young people". Buddhism has a chequered history with Islam and Hinduism and has its own internal struggles (NKT vs HH Dalai Lama, corrupt Lamas, fake Roshis and so on). Going into any spiritual tradition with wide-eyed innocence is a recipe for disaster, they are created by human beings and we all know how perfect they are don't we?

[treegod]

As Badger Bob said, it was rhetorical. Shadow Work is a subject that's not to be approached lightly, so I certainly wasn't making any serious propositions to pursue it. At least not on an intimate and personal level in such an open and relatively anonymous situation, like a message board.

That being said, another idea does come to me, that all movements (and nations and religions and families and philosophies and ideologies and botany clubs and...) have their Shadow... it's a safe bet that Druidry has too, accumulated from individual Druids' Shadows. Though a general rule of thumb is that when you reveal anyone or anything's Shadow you're in for a conflict, the Shadow rears its ugly head and retaliates. So maybe best not say anything about modern Druidry's Shadow, especially here, eh?

I've said too much already

[Lily]

ah, now we're getting there:

For physical "darkities" such as the dangerous sides of herbalism, read the disclaimers in places like health and healing. Never go without the advice of a professional, or become one yourself which will teach you what's good and what's not. So yeah, we do talk about it!

As for shadow work (what a loaded word), personal darkness, shall we say?
yep, would probably not be useful to have whole chapters on a message board devoted to that.
But of course we discuss our challenges here - but perhaps only the ones we recognize...?
When you encounter one of your own, or someone else's - if you or others are ready for growth, these can be faced in a constructive way and I think you can talk about them... recognizing them is probably 90% of dealing with them.
If not, you brush it aside - if it's the other person, agree to disagree or end interaction with someone - and it will rear its head some place in the future.

[DJ Droood]

im wondering why there is no mention anywhere of the dark side of druidry the druids from how i understand it were all about balancing light and dark they cursed as much as they healed oh and if im posting this in the wrong place please move it

I don't think my druidry has much of a dark side....I am very "new agey" and want to try to send my small beam of light into the dark places, or at the very least try to not cast my shadow over someone else (unless they need shade.) I figure the "dark side" is doing fairly well on its own...I'll walk on the sunny side of the street. I remember one time being filled with rage because someone broke into my home and robbed us and hurt our dog and I employed an experienced spell-caster (the cops being worse than useless...I say cut the police force by 40% and give the money to spell-casters) to help me out (even though I don't believe in such things..heavens...) but even then, we cooked up a "justice and healing" spell, where my family and my dog and the "perps" could all get to a better place. My instinct was to bash someone with a baseball bat, but that was my non-druid side (perhaps my latent warrior gene)...my druidry informed me that justice would be best served if everyone involved could somehow find psychic and physical healing. (hopefully with a few months in lock-up for the bad guys to think things over.) A man and his teenaged son were arrested a few months later for a string of break-ins in our area...not sure if they were "ours" or not....but can you imagine being in a place in your life where you have to burgle with your kid to get by? Sometimes the "dark side" arrives on your doorstep without warning....no need to seek it out.

[deepwater]

Im not sure how many of you have or had a family member as a teacher,,My grandfather,,well into his 60s was schooling me as often as he could get me away from my mother,,This was in the late 1950s,,He warned me against the mix of life with death,,He said this was not the age for it any-longer and he would not teach me nor should I try to learn it,,To just talk of the dark side is enough and is better left alone