dark side of druidry

[Lily]

I think we ascribe too much negativity to death. We're just not used to seeing people die on a daily basis anymore. Parents will even shut children out from seeing grandma laid out because they think they will be traumatized.

I respect your grandfather's decision (maybe he meant something beyond the word itself) - but some explorations of your feelings towards death and dying, of yourself or your close ones, is worthwile when the time and setting is right. And this is not something we druids shut out.

Ignoring or excluding death also affects your ability to do ancestor work which is an important part of our work with ourselves and the cycle of live, the seasons etc.

Look around here for discussions, e.g. "pagan transitions", pagan funerals etc.

[Bartholomew]

A winding discussion and a very interesting one, I wonder why someone would say that life and death do not mix, unless they meant the use of light and dark forces in this current age of druidry. I was reading through the druid ethics and codes of conduct yesterday where the Roman accounts of latter day Druids are quoted and the different roles assigned to the Bard, Ovate and Druid.
Ovate to be present at sacrifices among other duties, I wonder what the sacrifices were and for what reason? And maybe that is an aspect that is no longer needed or expected today. I don't know, not having studied enough in these areas. As for death it is part of life and until you lose someone very close to you I don't think the fragile nature of life fully hits you. When my father passed very suddenly, I was very young, and it altered my life and my way of thinking completely. I remember thinking on the day that he passed, that he was beyond this world and beyond suffering now.
As for contemplating on the deaths of those close to you that are alive, I don't think that is healthy and can lead to all kinds of anxiety and psychological disorders. I was recently talking to a mother who was racked with fear every time her teenage children left the house, in case this or that would happen. She had lost her own mother when she was a teenager so I don't know if the fear came from that event. My philosophy is to live in the day and appreciate the people you have with you for this day. We are born, we live , we die. Out of our control, so why worry?

[Lily]

Ovate to be present at sacrifices among other duties, I wonder what the sacrifices were and for what reason? And maybe that is an aspect that is no longer needed or expected today.

I guess the skilled knife-hand of an ovate is not in much demand today, true as for what was sacrificed, we don't know for sure about what animals (or do we? likely cattle and horses), re: humans - see my first post...

As for contemplating on the deaths of those close to you that are alive, I don't think that is healthy and can lead to all kinds of anxiety and psychological disorders.

See, to approach the topic without anxiety, that is already a lesson to learn.

[Salomea]

I agree with Lily that "we ascribe too much negativity to death" and don't treat it simply as part of life.

People are also demonizing the “human sacrifice” case. Most possible Celts did it, Roman did, Greeks did, German tribes did it, (and from modern time- Christians -cause how other way to call the witches trials)... And even today we do it in more or less atheistic countries, thought we call it death penalty. And I'm not bringing it without a reason, because very often the “victims” were criminals, and giving their live in sacred space or in ritual could be considered as some redemption possibility.
Then if the act of execution/sacrifice was done by druids, it could be because as judges and highly respected group they were protected from being stigmatized as murders in eyes of people and gods.
So I'm not really sure if there's really something "dark" in it.

As for cursing people, I guess it's true that it does damage also the cursing person, but what if but what if the person is already damaged and/or what if it's a concious decision, because the case if bigger than just you? Would you not use curses if you were at Ynys Môn in AD 60? Obviously cursing someone because s/he took your parking place is just stupid, but learning about curses and methods of protecting in historical context is not really bad idea, cause I think it illustrates great the responsibility that was on ancient druids (and possibly on us too).

To end it all with humours accent- some time ago me, my friend and her husband were sitting and chatting in the park, when we were approached by the gypsy" who offered us fortune telling. Me and Szymon said straight no, but my friend was bit abashed and didn't know how to react. The "gypsy" immediately turned to her, try to "convince" her, but she kept on hearing our "no". The woman was so furious that she cursed us two, saying really nasty things. Szymon was all like "yeah, an old woman talk", so he cared a thing, I was extremely angry how someone can even think such things, but because of that I was in "if it's your will against mine, you're so going down" state, which is of course not very mature, but I felt that truly her words did not affected me anyhow, but my friend was petrified and close to tears, because the woman cursed her husband to die in a year! I promised her, that the very same day I'll do a ritual to reflect back all those horrible words and luckily she calmed down.
I really did the ritual, but it was not that easy then to find anything suiting the situation, so I think, that maybe learning how to recognize the curse and take it down/turn it back should be part of our druid path, though of course to know that you need to now the curses too. That obviously requires to be ethical and calm person, (since other way it's like giving a gun to a madman,) but as druids aren't we trying to grow such?

[DJ Droood]

As for cursing people, I guess it's true that it does damage also the cursing person, but what if but what if the person is already damaged and/or what if it's a concious decision, because the case if bigger than just you? Would you not use curses if you were at Ynys Môn in AD 60? Obviously cursing someone because s/he took your parking place is just stupid, but learning about curses and methods of protecting in historical context is not really bad idea, cause I think it illustrates great the responsibility that was on ancient druids (and possibly on us too).

Although I would suggest that Ynys Môn is a good example of how cursing isn't an effective strategy, at least militarily. Might have been more effective scaring the hoi polloi into conformity.

[Badger Bob]

Headology, as a certain author puts it.

[Salomea]

Although I would suggest that Ynys Môn is a good example of how cursing isn't an effective strategy, at least militarily. Might have been more effective scaring the hoi polloi into conformity.

I'm not sure if you really can say that, first of all it never was a military strategy, at least not anyhow put before the standard military, and well they were in bit similar situation as those in Thermopile, they just didn't really stand a chance...

[DJ Droood]

Although I would suggest that Ynys Môn is a good example of how cursing isn't an effective strategy, at least militarily. Might have been more effective scaring the hoi polloi into conformity.

I'm not sure if you really can say that, first of all it never was a military strategy, at least not anyhow put before the standard military, and well they were in bit similar situation as those in Thermopile, they just didn't really stand a chance...

That is why I say it was ineffective....if there intent was to scare away the Romans, Paulinus wasn't rattled by it, even though his men were. (until they realized their swords still worked) Perhaps there was another reason for their display on the beach...to prepare themselves to die well, or something..in which case it worked. Did they use spells and curses at Thermopylae? I thought they just fought like heck. But you are right, when you are outnumbered and surrounded, the reality of the situation takes hold...talk about the dark side....

[Salomea]

That is why I say it was ineffective....if there intent was to scare away the Romans, Paulinus wasn't rattled by it, even though his men were. (until they realized their swords still worked) Perhaps there was another reason for their display on the beach...to prepare themselves to die well, or something..in which case it worked. Did they use spells and curses at Thermopylae? I thought they just fought like heck. But you are right, when you are outnumbered and surrounded, the reality of the situation takes hold...talk about the dark side....

I've no knowledge about Spartans using curses back there, thought they were well known throughout the Greek world, I mentioned it since it's a common knowledge how the battle looked as in manner of proportion and situation (though it probably was actually less dramatic than it is said, but you whatever ). And well I think that only when you are, as you've said, outnumbered and surrounded, or maybe also when you are protecting someone/something very dear and precious to you (like in case of home/country, not a watch), you can use the shadow magic, other way it's at least naive...

[Merlyn]

Then,
was it a dark side of druidry, or really the traditional Celtic methods?
Who was protecting whom? Was it the Celts protecting the druids?

Or... was it the magical last stand of the drui, trying to protect the Celts?

Merlyn

[deepwater]

I only stated what was said to me 40 years ago and that was not to mix life with death,,It wasn't long after this there was a big fight between my grandfather and mother and I heard the name Druid for the first time,,He hadn't said anything about it,,I heard my mom yell I know what you are and you cant have him I forbid it,,My grandfather said you cant change what he is ,,He is a Druid like his father and my fathers fathers before and he left,,I don't know all about the life or death paths but I follow the life I have and leave the dead alone as best as I can

[Lily]

So you are the last in that long line of druids, but your grandfather omitted half of his lore - because he thought it was not worth passing on?

What a loss...

[deepwater]

It seems so,, he was forbidden to take me out with him by my mother and not welcome at the house,,It was something that drove a very deep wedge between the families,,Mom went along with alot of things but when she stood up and squared her self to it,, YOU lost,, I learned alot from my father,,filtered as it was I now know and grandpa would take when dad was gone,,He would say Your the one now and show me things about the mushrooms or roots how to check the liver and lungs of an animal for disease,mom put a stop to that,dad and mom were at each other but the Catholic in her would not budge,,Grandpa lived over 30 miles away so to far to walk and in 3 years I changed alot being away from him,,I got a car and he was just sick ,,pancreas cancer got him and I joined the military,,12 years later dad was gone,,20 years later 3 wars 45 countries and I'm beat to hell I retire and start to think and sometimes remember,,15+ years later and im in the woods I needed and im remembering things and seeing things I feel the earth,,He knew it was worth it but not enough to split our family,, not in this age because time is changing,,Things I know that were passed to him father to father to father died with him and ill never learn them,,But by his word I am a Druid and I belong to the woods the fields and I wont look at the dark or mix them,,when its dead its gone,,I will sit in the Grove and be filled until my last days are here,,Yes im the last of a very long line of Druids,,no my grandfather did not omit 1/2 of his lore,,He taught me all of it one day at a time as I was ready ,,I let him down when I left,,I did not know How worth it "it" was,,so stay your path and keep to the light and happy side least you be branded a crazy old hermit,,Just take time to feel the push and the pull

[skydove]

Hey Deepwater,
Big big hugs to you.
Skydove

[Lily]

Deepwater,

while I cannot relate to the things you have experienced in life, and you have my feelings,

I still think a guarded, guided, prudent approach to the darker recessses of human existence is befitting of a balanced druidry.
Whatever shape this takes, it will be of some benefit and will not make a druid a "crazy old hermit".

best
Lily

[DaRC]

A number of points...

People are also demonizing the “human sacrifice” case.

This originally came from the Romans - as they had stopped religious human sacrifice it was regarded as a barbarous act and gave the Roman's an excuse to come along and civilize them. Similar arguments have been used by other imperial powers.
Of course Gladiatorial games were not a "human sacrifice", as far as the Romans were concerned, although we would probably regards them as such, especially as they developed out of Funereal rites.

I've no knowledge about Spartans using curses back there

No they were far too Laconic for that. Although they were notoriously superstitious.

It's funny how cursing (or blessing) always seems to have worked for the winner - for example Constantine 1's raising of the Christian standard. In some cases it will have worked and in others it won't. At Ynys Mon you could view it as a magical, emotional battle between the Druidess' and the priests of Mithras or Jupiter. Of course the Roman Army was quite confident anyway.

Deepwater - my commiserations, it's a shame that your family knowledge wasn't passed on.

[Darkwolf Of Avalon]

I to was trained by my grandfather who was trained by his and so on back I'm now the last of the clan here in Australia I'm 24 generation druid (order of the stag) and there are many paths in druidry the light as some say it is then the dark as it may be called but all paths are and all ways are major parts in in finding the true path of the scholar. witch in most cases to become mage or sage or old sage druid. this part most play in nodruidry like grand druid arch druid are modern traits given to church goers like christian druids (new age druids) most of the new up and coming druids are (ADF)(USA) trained not of an old order but wiccan (and that is not spelt right) its the USA spelling it real spelling is if you know your lore and history like real druids should after 28 to 30 years training like real druids then you should know its spelt (WICKIEN) like the town of wick where it comes from now the so called dark arts of druidry are there in the old ways of teaching as well well as the so called light arts you must travle on the dark side to find the light as you walk the light path to find the dark when you can do all that in the right order any then can you call your self a druid and then see the real art of being a druid i have trained in becoming a druid since i was twelve years old andtill i was 37years old and still training some small tests when i was 3 years old to see if i was train a ball so you see some of you maybe druids but most just like the title thay think it gives them power i call them WICCANS not druids
May the moss be green the oak be strong and your rivers sweet
(young) mage druid darkwolf

I'm so sorry for the spelling as i was not schooled like most of you as all my training was hands on and shown started to learn to spell when i had kids so fore give if any thing is miss spelt or has no stops

[DJ Droood]

I guess spelling and syntax were saved for the 31st year of training. (the Mystery of Punctuation)

[Badger Bob]

... trained not of an old order but wiccan (and that is not spelt right) its the USA spelling it real spelling is if you know your lore and history like real druids should after 28 to 30 years training like real druids then you should know its spelt (WICKIEN) like the town of wick where it comes from ...

This is a wind up right?

Etymology of Wicca

[Lily]

Would you share that secret knowledge with the academic world? They are looking for hereditary druids, you know.