Druidry and violence

[Aoife]

I know druids like to practice a reverence for all life regardless of form but I was wondering how they feel about self-defense or coming to the rescue of others? Not a desirable situation to be sure but I thought I'd ask. I practice kung-fu so I was wondering about that.

[Paul Mitchell]

Hi there. I practice Tai-chi and Taekwondo, and have practised other martial arts in the past.

As a rule people are highly unlikely to be physically attacked. Add to this the benefits of learning a good system of self defence and I would suggest the odds of you being attacked are made lower still - as the first rule of self defence is "Don't be there in the first place" and the 2nd is "be VERY aware and avoid trouble". It is also well recognised by martial arts practitioners that a black belt (or indeed black sash) does not a fighter make.

You are significantly more likely to be injured whilst training than you are likely to be injured in an attack on the street. If this isn't the case you should reflect on your life style.

So, I guess my first question is why do you think the training you are doing has anything to do with self defence or aiding others in conflict? I think your question is more about how you approach your martial arts than about your druidry.

Bottom line is that I'm not really designed to get violent with others, I'm not built for it so let's not pretend I'm some great physical mass of a man who can eat bullies with one hand. However I am some one who has talked down a fair few fights, including talking down a very violent man who had a knife up against me. I'd say the balance of life tells us that violence tends to breed more violence, so there's little point in choosing it as an option UNLESS you want violence as the answer. Of course we can talk through scenarios about using a swift kick to the nuts as a way of getting away, or rescuing our loved ones if they are attacked..... but let's get real. If you really think protecting people from the injustice that others might visit upon them is important then why limit things to intervening in a violent altercation? Why limit it to preventing violence (you did contact your representatives opposing recent wars, didn't you?) ? Why not get acting to protect people against all injustices you see, most of which are likely to be more damaging to individuals, families and communities than some bloke flailing his fists about?

If you want to learn from the practice of a kung-fu how to protect yourself and others you might apply the learning around patience, discipline, avoidance and timing to the wider world.

Of course I would also say save yourself some time. All good kung-fu practitioners end up learning Tai-chi.... so just get yourself a good Tai-chi instructor and get on with it

[Explorer]

slightly off-topic, but martial arts idea got into my head a few times lately. More to practise some skills of awareness and focus than fighting off people.
Trouble is,I wear glasses and can't see who to hit without them, and my backflip salto mortale has become a bit rusty over the years also.
Do you have any advice about what a near sided middle aged druid could practise?

[Badger Bob]

I am a Karateka, I have practiced Karate almost as long as I have practiced Druidry. I do it more for the exercise and the spirit, it isn't really necessary for me to be a good fighter, just to have a good spirit. I have used my art in the past in a self defence capacity and I have used it in the defence of others (the perils of being a non-drinker on a saturday night in town). Being a martial artists helped in those situations but it can get you into trouble if you don't use it wisely. Ultra-macho BS-Jutsu is the antithesis of martial art for me but then again I was heavily influenced by the TV series Kung Fu.

Nico, cheap monthly disposable contact lenses are great for occasional light usage such as martial arts classes. I pay about £8 a month for mine and while my vision isn't great with them in (I couldn't drive in them, if I was a motorist) it is enough to see what is going on. Either that or do something non-contact like Tae-Bo or Go-Kan-Ryu but they are more like pyramid selling schemes than martial arts.

[Corwen]

slightly off-topic, but martial arts idea got into my head a few times lately. More to practise some skills of awareness and focus than fighting off people.
Trouble is,I wear glasses and can't see who to hit without them, and my backflip salto mortale has become a bit rusty over the years also.
Do you have any advice about what a near sided middle aged druid could practise?

running away?

[Aoife]

**back to the original topic**

Perhaps I should explain more clearly.

I am not a druid yet. I'm still researching it and it seems like this is the path I would like to follow but I admit that pacifism conflicts with my nature when it comes to danger, however rare it may be.

As of yet I haven't used my kung fu on anyone but I admit the whole reason I took it was because I was...victimized...when I was 19 years old and I swore to myself I would never be anyone's victim again. The fact that I couldn't protect myself (I'm a 4'11 woman) hurt me deeply and I wanted to make sure that myself and those I love would never have to suffer like I had if I was around. I wouldn't let size be a hindrance when it came to protection because I would learn the tools it takes to survive should the occasion arise and hopefully it never will. I do not wish for an altercation but merely the tools to survive it if I need to fight.

I live in a fairly safe area and the people make a good community for the most part but it does have a bit of a meth problem and muggings and the like happen from time to time. The papers are full of stories of people being randomly attacked for seemingly no reason other than to commit an act of violence. It may be the drugs? Who knows.

Besides that one...attack...that stole part of me away I've been trying to heal. And since that I cannot regain what was lost and since I still have nightmares and once woke up screaming a few months ago (and it's sad because I'm almost 25 now) I have lived a altercation free life and I'm glad for it. However, I know I would not hesitate to fight if I absolutely had to.

[Explorer]

slightly off-topic, but martial arts idea got into my head a few times lately. More to practise some skills of awareness and focus than fighting off people.
Trouble is,I wear glasses and can't see who to hit without them, and my backflip salto mortale has become a bit rusty over the years also.
Do you have any advice about what a near sided middle aged druid could practise?

running away?

hahaha!
But sometimes a man has gotta do what a man has gotta do...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dspAa9NQ-c

[Explorer]

Perhaps I should explain more clearly.

I am not a druid yet. I'm still researching it and it seems like this is the path I would like to follow but I admit that pacifism conflicts with my nature when it comes to danger, however rare it may be.

Okay, I'll try a more serious answer.

Druidry goes with a sense of peace, but not perse pacifism. Some druids are pacifists, others are not.
The general idea is that we try to stimulate peace. But in my opinion that is mainly done by reason, patience, calm, good intentions, a loving heart, things like that.

But there are also situations where that is simply not possible. Like when you, or your loved ones, are indeed attacked for no reason, and can't get away. I'm no christian, and I wouldn't turn the other cheek.

[DJ Droood]

I know druids like to practice a reverence for all life regardless of form but I was wondering how they feel about self-defense or coming to the rescue of others? Not a desirable situation to be sure but I thought I'd ask. I practice kung-fu so I was wondering about that.

Here are some thoughts on pacifism from the OBODs Choosen Chief:

http://www.druidry.org/obod/wtc/911/pacifistviews.html

“For myself, I cannot say that I espouse Total or Absolute Pacifism (opposition to all killing and violence of any kind), because I believe that if, for example, I found my family (or anyone) being attacked by a madman with a gun, I would hope I could disable him before he did any harm. Likewise with the fight against Nazism, I believe if I had been alive at the time of that awful struggle, I would have supported the war effort, though I would have tried to be involved in a non-violent way such as analysing intelligence rather than fighting . But I do believe that violence and aggression, not used in cases of necessary self-defence or protection of others, is morally wrong, and pragmatically it rarely solves problems, and instead usually exacerbates them."

I am in broad agreement with this, although I wouldn't draw a moral or ethical line between intelligence gathering and shooting a rifle, in what I would consider a righteous fight. In practical terms, I would probably be useless as a fighter and of more value driving an ambulance or peeling potatoes or something.

[Aitrus]

Being raised in Alaska, a place where representatives of "The Law" are far and few between, I learned early on that each person is responsible for his or her own safety from predators, both two and four legged. To do this, you need to have a certain mindset. "I will defend my family to the death", to believe it completely and to be as prepared for it as you can is one example of this mindset. No matter how much we like to think otherwise, bad people do bad things to good people, and Nature's citizens mistake us for food too often to ignore the risks.

Nature is already a violent place, and it becomes much more so when you introduce intelligence, ideology, economics, etc. I believe, as many others do, in peace and advocate strongly for it. Through dialog if possible, through superior firepower if dialog fails and lives are at stake, though I don't agree with fighting others' battles for them. I think that my country has forgotten the credo "Walk softly, but carry a big stick." WWII was a "good war" in my opinion. Most since then have not been, or if they were have been mired so much by bureacracy that they became bad wars because of how they were waged.

When I joined the military, it was during a time of relative peace - 1998. The job I chose to enroll myself in was one of peace and protecting life, but it did so through the suitable application of explosives or disarmament of armed explosives. My career has evolved through different jobs, but always with the goal of protecting life or teaching others to stay alive in situations dangerous to human life.

I never wanted to pull a trigger for a living, but I know that I can, and will, if I need to do so to protect myself, a loved one or an innocent. And I have, although it was against a surly bull moose who wouldn't take "No" for an answer. It's one of the reasons I carry a CCW on a daily basis.

[reilz81]

nico you should practise blindfolded to enhance your other senses so it is unneccasary to have your glasses at all if you were in a fight and felt you were at a disadvantage you could always make it more fare by taking out the lights or the old dirt in the eyes works well

[Explorer]

nico you should practise blindfolded to enhance your other senses so it is unneccasary to have your glasses at all if you were in a fight and felt you were at a disadvantage you could always make it more fare by taking out the lights or the old dirt in the eyes works well

But what should I practise? I know nothing about the subject, are there martial art forms that you can practise alone for instance?

[celestialrose]

I know druids like to practice a reverence for all life regardless of form but I was wondering how they feel about self-defense or coming to the rescue of others? Not a desirable situation to be sure but I thought I'd ask. I practice kung-fu so I was wondering about that.

This is just my opinion but I'd have thought if you were attacked for no reason and tried a "please don't hurt me/do this/please leave me be/is this necessary" or any kind of line which was non-violent (if they threaten for example; there's a space to talk to them. if they come at you with a knife, just protect yourself]; I don't think that it would be "bad" to put your arms up in a shielding manner or try to protect yourself. I wouldn't try and get into a fight- if you have a chance to run and know a safe place nearby; do so. In my view, hitting someone in the arm with your hand if they are about to stab you doesn't sound unreasonable to me. As peacekeepers; this wouldn't be a desirable situation and of course if they have a weapon and you don't the chances aren't exactly in your favour; but if it's about protecting your life so you may continue trying to keep peace, I think that's worth protecting yourself for; even if violence is used to do that. -sending a hug for you current situation-

[Dathi]

Greetings,

I thought this was very "Druidic"!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNhciE5WzaI

Dathi

[Aitrus]

I like that one, Dathi. I think this boy's actions are as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wr6QK6LJC_s

[Aoife]

Greetings,

I thought this was very "Druidic"!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNhciE5WzaI

Dathi

Yes,that would be how I would try to handle the situation as well. I do not look for fights and I never meant to imply that I did. I just meant that if the situation was entirely unavoidable and that I would use what I learned to diffuse the situation or restrain the individual (if he was really violent) even if it meant hurting the person that I would in my right be able to do so without violating the "laws" of druidry. Of course I would wait until the last possible moment until it was deemed absolutely necessary.

[Ffenics Y Feudwy]

I'd just like to say that I never had violence in my life until I became interested in druidry. This of course was not known to me at the time, but the person who introduced me to OBOD claimed to be a pacifist. But as time passed, I realised that this person was violent, physically and verbally. He brought out the worst in me, but also the best. He taught me how to stand my ground, though it was against him, it was a lesson nontheless. Not ALL druids are like this I know, but some (as inspirational as they seem to be) can be.

[scopulus]

For me , druidry and violence can go hand in hand Seriously.. I got violated a few times on the street and certainly alot verbally. And I strike back! Druidry for me learned how about not to be too agressive but also to stand up for my own rights. And offcourse the more spiritual side. I used to do Aikodo and Wing chun Kung Fu, now I practice Ninpo (ninjutsu form) and Wing Chun. I feel at ease, I still look fat, I am lean, and I am not that easily out of balance anymore (but it is a daily practice that eventually fails at times) I will not say that all this made me a fighter, far from it, but I know how to deal with most violence actions within a few moves. The ninpo part I do is from Genbukan , and I can honestly say that the spiritual side of this martial arts goes alot deeper then expected. Then again: it should always be like that no? Have some spiritual guidance in this traditional arts.
Nico: Katinka might tell you more about Ninpo. For a middleaged person it is ok: I cant do back flips anymore, but I prefer to rely on standing my ground
As for Tai chi: my experience is that many who meets Tai Chi , is that they go further up the way to Kungfu and in this case Wing Chun... except 65+ people: they tend to love Tai chi here..

Martial arts... arts for mars.. so I see not why to combine it with druidry

[Frog]

I've always tried to look at the balance of everything. In order to promote peace, one must also understand violence. Classic texts such as The Art of Peace and the Art of War explain this far better.

I'm not one to attack someone, but I would like to think that if someone was to attack me I could stop that attack and prevent further potential attacks upon me. There is a whole grey area over this second aspect of course; the pacifist may be happy with the former... but the latter?



Nico - I would suggest trying Tai Chi! When learning the martial art, one moves slowly with control; however the form movements (if deployed quickly) are in fact powerful blocks and strikes. I've been studying Tai c hi for over two years now (both Yang Short Form and Traditional Broadsword) and these are both "solitary" training (so unlike Judo you won't need a partner to train with). There are two-person drills (push hands for example) that start to move the Tai Chi training into the martial arts arena.

[Myrde]

Violence cannot and should not be tolerated for any Druid.

That said, Self-Defense is a must for each and every Druid, for themselves, for those around them who cannot defend themselves.

Confused? Druids, sounding as cliche as it is, are to keep the balance. While we, in my humble opinion, should be opposed to all sorts of violence, we should not, for a moment, heisitate or second guess about commiting violence if it meant protecting ourselves or a loved one.

Take for the example of Fionn Mac Cumhaill and his son Oisin, who were Ireland's greatest warriors AND poets. While I know they weren't Druids themselves, it purely shows the mind, body, and spirit needed to be trained equally. I know for a fact there are several Druidic groves and organizations, like the Druid Order of the 3 Realms, who have something akin to the Fianna going on, practicing the Druidic path and martial arts. Not gonna lie, kinda nice to know some of our brethren are trained for combat. :/

(Fianna were the Irish warriors led by Fion Mac Cumhaill. Their mottoes were:

Glaine ár gcroí (Purity of our hearts)
Neart ár ngéag (Strength of our limbs)
Beart de réir ár mbriathar (Action to match our speech)

In my humble opinion, I think that keeps true to what we beleive as well. Course, this is coming from 2nd degree blackbelt and 2nd place finalist in his state tourney =w=; So maybe Im not the best person to preach about violence and such.)