Scotland, Druidry and OBOD

[Kris Hughes]

I'm trying to get a handle on this. My grasp of the history of western Europe is good enough to know that traffic and affiliations between Scotland, Ireland and England (not to mention Scandanavia and France) has existed in every age - perhaps less so with Wales. Yet I'm not finding a lot of references to Scottish Druids or Druidry (of any period) in my readings here. Am I missing something, or is this to do with the specific focus of OBOD, or...?

I'm definitely not trying to pick a fight with this, by the way, it's just a genuine question.

Kris

[Lily]

AFAIK there just isn't as much reference material, old manuscripts, legends.... but I'll follow what others contribute to this topic with interest!

[Muddy Fox]

Scots, Irish, Welsh Does it matter? We are all mixed blood, mixed race. I was reading an account on the net about "The Home Children" Scottish, Welsh, English and Irish children that have been shipped out of these isles illegally for centuries, the orphans, waifs, strays, petty teeenage criminals, mild truants. Shipped to Canada, Australia, America, Africa, Jamaica. So where does one race culture end and one start? We can go the other way as well with the African/Jamacian slave trade. There is not much pure blood or pure culture around these days I think and that is not always a bad thing. We are all one!

[Art]

AFAIK there just isn't as much reference material, old manuscripts, legends.... but I'll follow what others contribute to this topic with interest!

I think Lily pretty much hit the nail on the head. The indigenous folks of Ireland were outside the pale from Roman times onward and you really don't see much until after the inception of the Dalriada kingdoms in the middle of the first Century. Of course some of the same logic could be applied to the Welsh since "they" didn't exist until the encroaching Anglo-Saxon folks started calling them Wellas...or the others. Before that time, the native people of Britain were simply Britons from frigid sea to frigid shining sea and identified by local tribal groupings. Certainly there probably were people who served the various and sundry functions of Druids among the Picts and other early tribes north of the wall but what they were called and how closely they resembled British Druids apparently nobody knows.
Bryan Sykes "Blood of the Isles" aka "Saxons, Vikings and Celts" is a great little read about the genetic evidence for migration in Britain.

[Kris Hughes]

Scots, Irish, Welsh Does it matter? We are all mixed blood, mixed race. ... There is not much pure blood or pure culture around these days I think and that is not always a bad thing. We are all one!

Well, I'm not motivated by notions of cultural or racial "purity", I assure you. However, I am motivated by a genuine fondness for and love of Scotland and Scots culture, since I lived there for a big chunk of my life, and still tend to identify as a Scot. Therefore it does matter to me.

[LoneWalker]

I think Lily's right that there's not much written about any Druids in what is now Scotland. This may just mean that either what the northenmost Britons did was the same as everyone else so by the time the Roman's made it up there it wasn't something new worth recording or it may be that because they didn't extend the empire up there they ignored the structure of the tribes beyond the wall.

But I'm just speculating here, a good history of ancient scotland might help you more?

[paikea]

A search for hisoric scotland and druids brings up quite a few pages
http://www.tylwythteg.com/druid1.html
http://www.electricscotland.com/history ... ist17.html
http://www.heartoscotland.com/Categories/History2.htm

Because druidism was an oral tradition and most of the stuff we know is from the Romans it really depends on how many Romans where interesting enough to have their writings still available. Here is a map that shows where the Romans invaded:
http://www.thejournal.org/studylibrary/ ... empire.gif

Hth

[Corwen]

There was no clear division between Wales and Scotland in the early medieval period, parts of what are now Scotland were Welsh speaking until the 12th century. The dialect is called Cumbric by modern scholars, and gives its namer to Cumbria. William Wallace's ancestors were probably Welsh speakers, as that is the meaning of the surname Wallace.

[Kris Hughes]

There was no clear division between Wales and Scotland in the early medieval period, parts of what are now Scotland were Welsh speaking until the 12th century. The dialect is called Cumbric by modern scholars, and gives its namer to Cumbria. William Wallace's ancestors were probably Welsh speakers, as that is the meaning of the surname Wallace.

(slaps forehead) Yes. I knew that!! Somehow, though, I wasn't connecting it to my question. I was so busy thinking about how the Scottish Gàidhealtachd and Irish Gaeltacht were so closely tied that the whole lowland Cumbric/Welsh connection eluded me there. Thanks for the reminder. A long time ago I read Tolstoy's The Quest for Merlin several times - not to mention being a fan of Robin Williamson's Five Denials on Merlin's Grave. I must go back and read some of their sources.

[elementalheart]

Where an oral tradition exists, it is only recorded to the extent that someone external writes about it (be they Roman or otherwise) and what they write is not necessarily accurate any more than an anthropologist studying a remote tribe will understand what they are observing without the context of belief to practice or knowing what they aren't being shown behind what they are.. not to mention the vagaries of language translation and word meanings which can confuse followers of any translated material into entirely unintentioned belief systems

To find a tradition for Scotland, in my view, you'd have to be there and work with the land, mountains, waters and other energies there aswell as tapping into the ancestral heritage. A book can't teach spirituality nor is the truth of one age or aspect of the earth always applicable to another. My personal views and intended only as an expression of those, without further agenda

[coldcell]

I am going to Skye the weekend after next to meet some older people who will show/teach/sing me some Gaelic stories and song from different islands in the Hebrides which include reference to Druidry and the 'land ways' as it is translated into English. I'll hopefully be writing an article after the trip.

[Kris Hughes]

Because I'm considering joining the Bardic course, and because I lived so long in Scotland and have a strong affinity with it, then the OBOD "take" on it is important to me. Looking back at how I worded my original question, perhaps this wasn't very clear. My impression, based on the time I have spent researching OBOD and chatting on this board is that there are very few Scots involved. I wonder why that is. (I realise that this could be taken as a loaded question, but I don't really mean it that way.) From the understanding that I have, I wouldn't have thought of Scotland as less "Druidic" historically than other parts of the British Isles, although I'm not aware that the Druid revivals held any sway there.

Coldcell, I am very interested to hear more about your trip to Skye, and what group or event you are attending. Do you have any thoughts about OBOD and the Scots? PM me if you prefer.

[katie bridgewater]

Well out of nearly 70 million Brits, only 5 million are Scottish so demographics explains it in part.
I also think there are more US and English (as opposed to British) members of OBOD because the Scottish, Welsh and Irish tend to have a stronger sense of national identity than the English and therefore perhaps (IMO anyway) less likely to need something like OBOD which is a lot about rediscovering or reclaiming. I think the larger number of US members also reflects this desire in a mostly immigrant population to rediscover 'celtic' roots and find some sense of identity.

[Red Raven]

As an Englishman who has moved to Scotland in the last six months to live here permanently, my impressions are as follows. Scotland at this time, appears to me to be going through a period of renewing its national identity at the minute, especially with the devolution issue. As has been mentioned, it is important to remember that the population is only 5 million or so, so I wouldn't expect large numbers of Scots on here. The information about the cultures in Scotland at the time of the classical Druids is very sparce and are mostly tied to the tribes present at those times, in particular the Picts. Yet undoubtably there were cultures that held very similar religious beliefs to other parts of Britain as is evidenced by the large numbers of megalithic sites still in the country. I just think that most Scots are more interested in more modern history, bearing in mind Scotland only really developed as an independant country comparably recently.

RR

[coldcell]

Where are you staying Red Raven? I'm in the Central Highlands.

[Red Raven]

Where are you staying Red Raven? I'm in the Central Highlands.

I live in Glasgow but my work takes me all over Scotland. Whilst here I have been up the West coast to Skye via Glen Coe and Glen shee, over the highlands to Inverness then on to Aberdeen, have been all round the coast in Fife and down to Edinburgh and the borders. Have also done Ayrshire and Dumfries & Galloway. My partner has lived up here for over 20 years and she hasn't done half of that

RR

[Dathi]

Greetings Kris,

Just picking up on this point...

Because I'm considering joining the Bardic course, and because I lived so long in Scotland and have a strong affinity with it, then the OBOD "take" on it is important to me. Looking back at how I worded my original question, perhaps this wasn't very clear. My impression, based on the time I have spent researching OBOD and chatting on this board is that there are very few Scots involved. I wonder why that is.

I think you would be very pleased with the Bardic course from the Scottish perspective (especially if you got the audio version). There is a huge amount of "Scottish" content. This is in various forms of lore, legend, literature, history, music, botanical heritage, ritual practice and information on sacred sites. Highland, Island and Lowland inputs are peppered throughout the course.

My 2c worth!

Dathi

PS: And just to add, there are a good few OBODies (not necessarily active on DHP - remember that DHP is just one facet of OBOD, there are many more members active in Groves, Seedgroups and the Camps movement who rarely appear on DHP) from or connected to Scotland. Over the years I have met people who lived at Findhorn, worked on Iona, done forestry surveys in the Highlands, studied Gaelic in the Hebrides, attended Buddhist retreats, and sundry muso's, authors, craftspeople and healers who have lived in bothies, remote cottages and lodges in various parts of Scotland.

That's the beauty of OBOD, the roots & tentacles that reach deep into the assorted humus of our heritage.

[Kris Hughes]

Sorry I haven't revisited this thread for awhile. I am still hoping to start the Bardic course soon. I think that when you live in Scotland, you do tend to forget the massive difference in population size (but England sure does feel crowded when you visit!) and that's a very valid point. Yes, the current preoccupation (again) with the independence question (Scotland is already largely devolved) and stronger sense of national identity might be a factor. This assumes that people are using Druidry as a path to some kind of cultural identity, and probably some are. Now it kind of feels like we have come full circle with this question, which was along the lines of whether OBOD is in some way at odds with "Scottish cultural identity" which is a vague and indefinable concept!

[Kishi]

Hi Kris,

Everything depends on your own interests. I have an interest in studying the megalithic ancestry of the Western fringes of Europe. As a Celt (Welsh), I see myself as an inheritor of these people's extraordinary wisdom. The great and numerous megalithic sites in Ireland, Wales, Scotland and England were built over 5,000 years ago by the Grooved Ware People. These sites were, and still are, astoundingly accurate chronometers, allowing the observation of all celestial movement up to 24 degrees. The knowledge was passed to the Celts. In this context, the national boundaries have little meaning or significance. If you are interested in reading more, I recommend Uriel's Machine by Lomas and Knight. You may discover that what is now Scotland was once part of the cradle of civilisation.