Justice

[Nightwolf]

I was wondering what different views you fellow druids have on punishment/justice in the otherworld or in the here and now. What type of retribution the god/goddess/gods or anything administers. I do believe we pay for unnatural deeds such as destruction of nature and violent acts. I have read a number of books on druidry but have never seen this addressed. What do you guys think?

[Fiona The Bard]

That question could be answered in as many ways as there are Druids. We all probably have extremely different views on this, as a Christian Druid might have a different view, based on his theology, than a Hindu, Buddhist or Pagan Druid would.

I, personally, think the idea of - or the desire for - justice is merely a product of the ego, nothing more. I don't think (again, personally) that the Divine has any such agendas; it isn't bent on punishing, or being witness to punishment, the way we humans are.

That said, I think the law of cause and effect is Divine Law, and that any retribution one might experience for one's deeds in life can be attributed to it. To every action there is always an equal and opposite reaction, and so forth.

[ShadowCat]

Since I view the universe as a projection of oneness that strives to experience itself, my gutfeeling tends to accept the idea that if the part of the soul that is bound to the individual has a deepseated feeling of guilt, it will create it's own "punishment" in knowledge and replay of hurtful moments, until that part of the soul let's go and dissolves back into the oneness. This can happen at any point during life or before, during of after the dyingproces. It's a proces not meant for punishment but for learning. The oneness or aspects of it we might consider deity only strives to experience and to learn balance. Doling out punishment isn't part of it.

[paikea]

What is justice? Most of the time when I see people calling for justice it seems to me they really want revenge of some sort. they want something to be done in return because in their minds this is how we learn something or "pay" for our deed. Like how a child will receive punishment for something because he "has to learn". though realistically this punishment won't do much. I mean how many people still speed in their cars? they know they will be fined if caught. how many people steal and murder despite the consequences?
I don't think their is a punishment like this laid down by the god(dess) I think that we receive opportunities to grow and learn and expand and oppertunities to repair damage we have done

[Gwion]

I was wondering what different views you fellow druids have on punishment/justice in the otherworld or in the here and now. ... I have read a number of books on druidry but have never seen this addressed. What do you guys think?

I presume that you’re referring to the lack of references in modern druid teachings. From an historical perspective the Brehon Laws and Cyfraith Hywel seem to be clear that justice was viewed in a restorative rather than punitive fashion, though these, of course, addressed punishment by society rather than punishment by deity.

From a modern perspective, I’d guess that the lack of dogma which seems to be a feature of much modern druidry makes it difficult to introduce the idea of punishment into discussions. I find the concept of a god or gods watching and recording our every action and reacting in a very human “parental” way a bit too Abrahamic. Most of the punishment in Christianity, for example, seems to results from breaking “God’s Laws” and offending “him”. (Yaweh even seems to be prone to losing his temper quite frequently ) My thoughts are more like Fiona’s.

I, personally, think the idea of - or the desire for - justice is merely a product of the ego, nothing more. I don't think (again, personally) that the Divine has any such agendas; it isn't bent on punishing, or being witness to punishment, the way we humans are. That said, I think the law of cause and effect is Divine Law, and that any retribution one might experience for one's deeds in life can be attributed to it. To every action there is always an equal and opposite reaction, and so forth.

In addition, if we stopped seeing ourselves as separate from the rest of the ecosystem we’d see the “punishment” that results from some of our actions. Ecosystems “work” when things are in balance and fail when that balance is disturbed. If we unbalance our ecosystem on any level (be it interpersonal, local or world-wide) then that ecosystem is “punished” – unfortunately we are too blind to see that we are part of it and share in the punishment. The short-term, self centred outlook of most of us perhaps means we believe that if it doesn’t hurt me now, I’ve not been punished.

From the point of view of ethics rather than reward and punishment, I think there's much more out there; for example "Living with Honour" by Emma Restall-Orr; though this provides mainly questions rather than answers or rules and certainly doesn't venture into punishments.

[Hennie]

"Justice" is a human concept. We create laws; when someone breaks a law he will get a fitting "punishment", when caught and proven guilty. This of course isn't so for the mighty and the rich, who can get away with hardly anything. Nature works simple ; poison your rivers and your crops, your cattle and eventually you yourself will die. That is more "justice" than any human law can understand.

[treegod]

Ecologically there is a constant balancing act between all organisms and there environment, and anything that disturbs this equilibrium, anything that damages its integrity goes against the natural "justice" of an ecosystem, and so becomes subject to this system of justice. All systems of justice try to maintain balance within a society, ecosystem, etc., whether based on natural processes or abstract human values.

I do believe there is a "natural justice" (as distinct from humans concepts of...), which we could describe as karma, or more simply as consequences. There are consequences to our actions, you drop something you might break it. Sometimes these consequences don't go back to the one that deserves it, and sometimes not in the deserved proportion either. That would be the human ideal of justice, anyway.

But more often than not we continually live with the consequences of our choices, every hour of every day. At any moment we can change our choices and change the consequences of our lives. We have to live with ourselves for all our lives, we cannot escape from ourselves or the choices we make about who we are, and that is its own justice. I believe the Buddha said that the making of karma is karma itself because the mind that habitually produces "bad" karma can't be a pleasant place to be in the first place.

I think humans aren't just consequences but are creative sources of consequences; we, to some extent, determine the quality of our choices and therefore our consequences, and so we also create justice, which is the quality of our lives as we live them, not judgement from "on high". It was quite a lesson for me that my moral conduct here doesn't depend on the hope/threat of what comes in the afterlife. I follow my conscience as a natural part of who I am, and I don't need offers of reward or punishment.

Conscience, I believe, is the internal system of justice that most if not all humans have to hold them in balance with the world.

[Aphritha]

I do believe there is a "natural justice" (as distinct from humans concepts of...), which we could describe as karma, or more simply as consequences. There are consequences to our actions, you drop something you might break it. Sometimes these consequences don't go back to the one that deserves it, and sometimes not in the deserved proportion either. That would be the human ideal of justice, anyway.

Well said.
To me, true justice is the effect of the persons own actions. If I am lazy and do not buy myself dinner, I will go hungry that evening. If I hit someone walking down the road, they may just very well hit me back, and a good deal harder! This is my personal justice from my actions.

Since I view the universe as a projection of oneness that strives to experience itself, my gutfeeling tends to accept the idea that if the part of the soul that is bound to the individual has a deepseated feeling of guilt, it will create it's own "punishment" in knowledge and replay of hurtful moments, until that part of the soul let's go and dissolves back into the oneness.

I also agree with this. We are our harshest critics. Dealing with our flaws and things we feel aren't right about ourselves is something we have to face personally, I feel, not that God/dess/spirit/divine/etc is waiting to call us on.

[cryptic_raven]

The main thing that concerns me with regards to the concept of justice is that it is often bound up with concepts of morality which are often very fluid and dependent on circumstance and societal norms. By questioning someone's moral actions, we get stuck in a very problematic debate, often one that can rarely be won. As an atheist, I often get asked by the religious (mainly Christians) that if I do not believe in God then where do I get my morals from? By not believing in a deity, I am somehow seen as being without a moral compass, yet I often debate back "Well, why do you have morals? Out of fear of punishment? Surely that misses the point entirely!"

Of course I do have "morals", just not those kinds of morals.

Anyway, I digress somewhat. Justice is an odd term and I am a strong believer in restorative justice. The society and people wronged by the crime should try (and it isn't always possible I know) to work with the criminal to understand their reasons and to try and show them the error of their ways, the effect on others and to assist in reintroducing them to life as a better rounded person.

Take the death penalty for example. Many people see that as excellent justice for heinous crimes. I despise the death penalty. Does that form of justice make us somehow rise above the criminal by destroying them? No. It draws us down into the pit with them. Plus there is always the risk of y'know...innocent people being killed for crimes they didn't commit!

I also take issue with the concepts of "evil" and its need to be punished. Evil does not exist as a concept. I read a very interesting article about Ted Bundy today that I highly recommend. http://www.orderofthegooddeath.com/the- ... -ted-bundy

The author summarises concepts of evil far better than I can and I agree entirely with how they phrase the issue of evil within our society. People kill. People do terrible things. However, those people do these things for a reason, even if they don't fully understand that reason themselves. Often things can stem from bad childhoods or other forms of trauma. Also, people can commit criminal acts because of their brain chemistry being off or other mental health issues. Do these people deserve to have punitive justice dealt out to them for things they couldn't control or do they deserve some form of help to try and stop them from harming others and themselves in the future? What kind of society do we create if we deal out pain and punishment without trying to assess the deeper causes?

I'm probably getting too heavy now so I'll stop but I hope some of my thoughts give others food for thought. Good and interesting topic guys!

[Treeshrew]

I've also been wondering about the meaning of 'justice' in the Druid's Prayer. There are so many different interpretations of human justice it's hard to know where to begin. I would prefer rehabilitative justice to punishment, and I worry when justice gets bound up with vengeance, which I think is very destructive.

I don't really believe in any sort of conscious afterlife, and certainly not one where we are judged and punished for being the wrong religion for example. I think nature has its own 'justice' in that we are all equal in death. Good or evil, rich or poor, we all return to the earth whence we came. I also think in terms of a sort of karma, that our actions have consequences that will come back to us through simple cause and effect. You poison the earth, that gets into your food, and you poison yourself. That sort of thing.

I like Terry Pratchett's Death character and his take on justice: 'There is no justice. There is just me.'

[DaRC]

It is a fundamental concept, along with truth, in the structure of ancient Celtic society. The Brehon laws and the Auraicept na-n Eces both deal with it.
It's also central to the Druid's prayer:
http://www.druidry.org/board/dhp/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10180

[Hennie]

Now you smuggle in "Truth" into the Druids Prayer. Luckily there is no mention of "Truth" in the Prayer, so please...

[DaRC]

No I did not mean to smuggle truth into the Druid prayer - I meant both truth & justice were central to Celtic society.

[ShadowCat]

Just a little personal story on justice in the here and now triggered by this

Nature works simple ; poison your rivers and your crops, your cattle and eventually you yourself will die. That is more "justice" than any human law can understand.

As I went to lawschool in one of the first courses they spoke of the difference between old systems of justice and law and the modern system (either anglo-american or roman).

The old system, adequately named "natural law" depended on what the society/tribe/community considered just, it was a consensus reached at "things", often spoken under a (sacred?) tree. Some of those cases were reported and refered to in future cases, but the judges were mostly trusted members of society that could see more sides to a story and decide on the best outcome. It was often a mediation-proces between the different parties. I think that many of those wise folks where druids (either by name or by nature) One might say that druids where the first legal mediators Truth is a part of justice, but not always functional, as truth is always a personal concept. There is no "one" truth.

Modern law is a system of justice where the law is written in advance by politicians and that law is applied to cases, with some wiggleroom for judges, but in essence it's the same always. That seems to promote equality, but the truth is that it makes the following of protocol more important than humanity.

I remember vividly sitting there, hearing my heart sing while listening to the lecture on "old" law and justice, and almost physically hurting when it was concluded that is was antiquated, ridiculous and the lecture continued with a "luckily we don't do that anymore" on the "modern" law. I also remember making a decision on that moment wether I should quit lawschool right then and there, because the whole system of (Dutch/European) law doesn't coincide with my internal system of justice. Finally I decided to stay, because I can help people work with this unjust system to the best they can. Acceptance, looking further than the obvious, creativity, working with other fields like coaches, mediators, advisors to resolve problems outside the courtsystem. Now, my s.o. and I are known as "not your typical lawyers", something we're proud of. But it takes a big toll, because we're constantly going against the stream (a big factor in me developing CFS). That my spiritual wanderings now brought me to druidry and this discussion feels "full circle".

Hennie's remarks is spot-on: natural law is simple and uncomplicated, action is reaction, and if you're responsible for the action, you have to accept the reaction. Humanity is a big factor, because the thief that stole a bread to feed her children should be punished in another way (restorative: maybe by working of her debt, learning to earn money legit in the proces) then the person that steals out of pure spite to harm someone, in which case something more equal to "eye for an eye" (so returning the stolen amount to the victim and paying a fine for a communal porpose) might be appropriate.

Just a little last personal remark: After lawschool I tried to apply to become a judge, which is a proces that starts with about 200 applicants for 10 jobs. I made it to the final 25 on legal skills, personal tests etc, but was send packing when an old judge on the committee asked me what I thought made a good judge: My answer - that a good judge first and formost thinks for herself, seeks justice and uses the law only as one of her tools to attain justice - probably offended them

Take the death penalty for example. Many people see that as excellent justice for heinous crimes. I despise the death penalty. Does that form of justice make us somehow rise above the criminal by destroying them? No. It draws us down into the pit with them. Plus there is always the risk of y'know...innocent people being killed for crimes they didn't commit!

Capital punishment is a bad thing imho and I'm happy we don't have it anymore on our side of the big pond. It doesn't allow any room for error, it forces other people in the rol of murderers, and it's no justice. It has never stopped to amaze me that the states with all their laws on for instance animal cruelty and childabuse, pro-life movements and big statements on humanity still allow capital punishment, with people locked up sometimes for decades, only waiting for death. It doesn't add up somehow.

That said, in natural law death does have a place, either by cause and effect (poison the land, die yourself of starvation) or by the natural laws of predation and survival of the fittest. Death could also,but only in extremely rare cases, be a humane way to end an otherwise impossible to resolve situation. As a human I do believe that I have the right to kill who-ever tries to kill me. I have the right to defend what is mine with appropriate measures (don't shoot someone entering your house if you don't close the door in the first place) and I have the right as a part of nature, to strive for survival. Within these parameters, my moral compass prevents me from overshooting those targets in violents ways. Common sense should always reign superior.

So that brings me to my conclusion:
The main problem with justice in modern society all over the world is really that it's lost it's connection to common sense in lieu for academic jibberjabber that's completely disconnected with (natural) life.

[DaRC]

The old system, adequately named "natural law" depended on what the society/tribe/community considered just, it was a consensus reached at "things", often spoken under a (sacred?) tree. Some of those cases were reported and refered to in future cases, but the judges were mostly trusted members of society that could see more sides to a story and decide on the best outcome. It was often a mediation-proces between the different parties.

If you want to know more about the process, from an Icelandic view, I would recommend reading "Njal's Saga", in Iceland they were known as Lawgivers or Lawspeakers.

Unfortunately it also details the changes in society, and people's manipulation of the law aka 'academic jibberjabber' that led to the failure of Northern Europe's first democracy. It's an essential tale in understanding the nature of law-giving in the pre christian age.

[Hennie]

Yes, I once called on a committee at work, because I was to removed from my job (they offered my another, which didn't like). After voting the chairman told me my objections were declared not applicable with one vote difference (namely the chairman's'). Later on one of the committee-members said to me :" you should have let an solicitor do the job, you would have won the case with great certainty". Yep, leave it to the lawyers. But then I know some people very well working in the field of law; it is not all bad.

[BlazeLeeDragon]

I was wondering what different views you fellow druids have on punishment/justice in the otherworld or in the here and now. What type of retribution the god/goddess/gods or anything administers. I do believe we pay for unnatural deeds such as destruction of nature and violent acts. I have read a number of books on druidry but have never seen this addressed. What do you guys think?

I dont' believe in any punishment, evil and destruction these are mortal terms and concepts. I think that we suffer from our action, from the very act of doing them. Imagine what you go through when your angry, what it feels like, it's poison. In the other world, I feel we live through these poisons we have built over alife time until we are cleansed or we hold on to them and suffer of our own accord.