The Confessional

[Muddy Fox]

I've heard bits and pieces here and there about the seal of the confessional being allowed to be broken under certain conditions, ie in the confession of a murder or some such.
As far as I was aware the sacrament of reconciliation is an act of penance between the confessor and the Priest who in this capacity is acting as the face of God/ Christ. An examination of the conscience and reparation of deeds done that do not sit right in the face of God.
A holy sacrament. To divulge a person's confession to a third party I feel in this case would be immoral and an abuse of privileges of the said Priest and of the religion he is representing, and he of course is only acting as an intermediary at this particular time. I wonder what any other priests/vicars out there would think about that. I am open for a bit of discussion.
I wonder if the breaking of the confessional seal would be considered a mortal sin in the eyes of God?

[Astrid]

Well I'm not and have never been a catholic - but as my mom often say, with her ironic voice, Ignorance should never keep anyone from voicing their opinion

Before I a became a heathen I discussed at the age of 13 with my (protestant) priest his pledge of secrecy which im guessing is much the same principle as that which chatolic priest hold as receivers of confessions.

I asked him the very same example you used that in the case that a murder confesses to him a murder would he not call the police? And my priest very fermly said that he would never do such a thing seeing as the murder comes and openly and honestly regrets his "sin" then god will forgive him and he shall be granted another chance to be a good christian person (The whole turn the other cheek business) and he shall not be condemmed by worldly law (Meaning if god forgives you then the popos do not need to get invovled )

But to be a bit more serious I bet if you asked the pope he would say there is no cirquemstance under which the seal of confessional may be broken because that would be, as you point out, be a mere mortal getting invovled in what is private relationship between you and god.
That being said I think there are priest out there who are maybe more securalized and would break the seal of confession if they felt that peoples lives might be in danger.

I think the best you can do if you use a confessor is to go to him and ask him about the subject. Would he ever consider breaking the seal and if yes then under which conditions.

A relationship with a confessor is one of trust so you should make sure you get that trust back

[Huathe]

Angelique,

I believe the bond should not be broken between the confessor and the priest except in the most extreme cases, like murder and rape. After all, someone else has been hurt or killed in those cases and I feel God would want those guilty being brought to justice. However the confession might could be used in the defendant''s defense.

The abuse of a child is another thing that may be a reason to breach the confessor-priest vow. It could save the child's life.

Though I am a protestant ( A Methodist ), I have great respect for the Catholic church. I tend to prefer churches like the Catholics or ones in the Anglican tradition.


Huathe ( Hawthorn Ent ).

[Lily]

In the catholic church, the seal should never be broken, looks like the priest is supposed to urge the person to turn themselves in. other churches such as our reformed church do not use confession, so the point is moot.

Many states uphold this, although it clearly goes against separation of church and state.... which of course is mostly an issue in the US.

[dvawlqos]

I've heard bits and pieces here and there about the seal of the confessional being allowed to be broken under certain conditions, ie in the confession of a murder or some such.
As far as I was aware the sacrament of reconciliation is an act of penance between the confessor and the Priest who in this capacity is acting as the face of God/ Christ. An examination of the conscience and reparation of deeds done that do not sit right in the face of God.
A holy sacrament. To divulge a person's confession to a third party I feel in this case would be immoral and an abuse of privileges of the said Priest and of the religion he is representing, and he of course is only acting as an intermediary at this particular time. I wonder what any other priests/vicars out there would think about that. I am open for a bit of discussion.
I wonder if the breaking of the confessional seal would be considered a mortal sin in the eyes of God?

I'd always hoped that those strictures were mitigated by common sense. I think it's a bad situation when one person can go in and say "bless me father, for I am a serial killer" and the priest can't say anything about it. To me that's anti-religion, because the goal of religion is to help to make society better. Allowing the active predation of your community in the name of sacrament is a travesty of that purpose. I would report a serious crime -- child abuse or rape or murder, simply because I think it's wrong to use religion as a fig leaf for doing nothing about active predation on the weak of society.

That being said, I'm not a Catholic, so I won't make demands on the Catholic Church. They should be catholic as they want to be.

[Badger Bob]

I think it's a bad situation when one person can go in and say "bless me father, for I am a serial killer" and the priest can't say anything about it.

The Priest is supposed to urge the person to turn themselves in, withhold absolution and bar the person from the sacraments if the confession is deemed to be of sufficient gravity. In practice, knowing what members of my own family must have confessed during the Irish War of Independence and got away with I guess that it is very much down to the discretion of the priest who can be as politically motivated or corrupt as the next man. The seal of the confessional is considered sacrosanct by the Church and that is pretty much accepted by most governments.

[Michael C. Page]

These links may help folks:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11618c.htm

http://www.ourcatholicfaith.org/teachin ... ssion.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confession

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacrament_ ... lic_Church)

And finally: http://www.catholic.com/library/Forgiveness_of_Sins.asp


It's probably more information than you need, but there you go anyway.

[Muddy Fox]

Thank you everybody. Much to think about.

[MoonGoddess9]

My father being a Pentecostal Preacher always said nowhere in the bible does it say we are to "confess" our sins to a priest or pastor or any one else, only to God.

[Twyrch]

My father being a Pentecostal Preacher always said nowhere in the bible does it say we are to "confess" our sins to a priest or pastor or any one else, only to God.

This idea comes from the Old Testament times when the High Priest would present the sins of the people before God behind the Holy of Holies. The office of the High Priest could only be held by a member of the tribe of Levi. The whole thing is written out in Leviticus 5. Here is an excerpt from verse 6:

As a penalty for the sin they have committed, they must bring to the LORD a female lamb or goat from the flock as a sin offering; and the priest shall make atonement for them for their sin. - Leviticus 5:6

Catholic doctrine teaches that the Roman Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ at the Confession of Peter. It interprets the Confession of Peter as acknowledging Christ's designation of Apostle Peter and his successors to be the temporal head of his Church. In 313, the struggles of the Early Church were lessened by the legalisation of Christianity by the Emperor Constantine I. In 380, Christianity became the state religion of the Roman Empire by the decree of the Emperor, which would persist until the fall of the Western Empire, and later, with the Eastern Roman Empire, until the Fall of Constantinople.

Being "Gentiles" the priests could not be from the Tribe of Levi, and they did away with sacrifice, seeing the death of Jesus as the ultimate sacrifice for all sin, but kept the confessional so that people could still confess their sins to the Priest, who could act as an intercessor for them in the forgiveness of their sins.

I hope that clears things up.

MoonGoddess, I'm sorry to say that your father is wrong in one respect. It is true, the New Testament does not say to confess our sins to a priest, but it does say to confess our sins to others. Have your father look up James 5:16:

Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective. - James 5:16

[MoonGoddess9]

Hi there, no need to apologize thats perfectly fine with me, no one is always correct. In fact now I wish my father knew I was on this board so I could show him that him and his denomination are not always right and everyone else wrong and on their way to the fiery pit of Hell! hahaha

[Karl]

Hmm, interesting conundrum.

I feel that the Confessional should be sacrosanct; if a guilty rapist or murderer can feel secure that what he shares with the priest/god is watertight then hopefully he can open up a bit and more easily come to terms with what he has done and work forward to the next step (handing himself in, or at least trying not to carry on) BUT if he does not have a 'safe' outlet for this it would surely remain bottled up and potentially continue far longer. Bear in mind that someone coming to confess has at least recognised they have done wrong and are seeking help for the next step. Maybe in special cases (mentally ill or someone coming to brag before the eyes of the lord) it could be considered that it is not a true confessional and steps may be taken, but ONLY in circumstances that the person is not realising their wrong-doing (and thus probably wouldn't be going to confess anyway).

That's what I reckon.

[CleddauGal]

The Priest is supposed to urge the person to turn themselves in, withhold absolution and bar the person from the sacraments if the confession is deemed to be of sufficient gravity.

Another piece is if the priest thinks that someone else is in danger from the person, he has a little leeway, whereas if the crime is over and in the priest's opinion of little chance to be repeated, then he is more likely not to say anything, I believe. As with all things, there are the rules and then there is "pastoral discretion."

[Gwion]

Hi. I missed this thread when it first appeared and have only just noticed it as it’s been revived. So here, a little late, are a few observations and questions. My observations are about my understanding of the Christian interpretation of the sacrament of reconciliation (confession) rather than a statement of my own views or a comment on the validity of the poster's. (If you get bored with my ramblings - skip to the end for the questions ).

After all, someone else has been hurt or killed in those cases and I feel God would want those guilty being brought to justice.

I think certain religious groups would argue that the “sinner” will be facing “God’s” judgement rather than secular judgement and that the function of religion, the priest and the confessional is not to supply secular judgement.

To me that's anti-religion, because the goal of religion is to help to make society better.

Again I think those “certain religious groups” would not agree with your analysis of the purpose of religion. My guess is they’d say the primary function of religion is to glorify “God” rather than to serve human society.

This idea comes from the Old Testament times when the High Priest would present the sins of the people before God behind the Holy of Holies. … James 5:16:

Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective. - James 5:16

As well as the references above, I had always assumed that the power of the priest to act as an intercessor in the forgiveness of sins rested upon the instruction given to the disciples in John 20:23

“Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.”

I’d agree, up to a point, with Badger Bob

The Priest is supposed to urge the person to turn themselves in, withhold absolution and bar the person from the sacraments if the confession is deemed to be of sufficient gravity.

In addition though, in my understanding, absolution is not valid, whatever the priest may say, unless there is true repentance and someone who intends to commit the same sin again would not be absolved in the eyes of, or reconciled with, “God”. However, it is not really up to the priest to judge the legitimacy of the confession, he has to take it at face value – “God” actually does the absolving and will know - so the priest is bound by the confessional whatever he may suspect. (Reminds me of the quote attributed to the leader of the Albigensian crusade attack on Béziers, “Kill them all, God will know his own.”)

In the UK at least, I believe, there is legal protection for priests around what they are told in the confessional in the same way that there is protection for lawyers around what a client tells them.

Question time now.

1. Am I right about legal protection for priests about statements made to them in confession?
2. If so, does this apply to all (Christian) denominations (or only those with formalised confession such as the RC church?)
3. Would it apply to non-Christian religious leaders? (Recent reading about the acceptance of druidry and TDN by the Charities Commission suggested there is no formal definition of what constitutes a religion in the UK statute law so how do they decide what is a religion and who is a priest(ess)?)
4. How do these questions apply in other countries in Europe and the USA for example?
5. I had thought that most druids, and indeed most pagans, didn’t believe in the Judeo-Christian version of sin; (not meaning to imply that they don’t believe in right or wrong). If you had a role as a pagan priest(ess) and someone confessed to you an act which you considered very wrong (assault/rape, murder etc), would you, as a pagan, (rather than trying to understand what a priest(ess) in a church with institutionalised confession) feel under any confessional seal ?

[Bricklayer]

I was taught that "kill them all and god will know his own" was a St. Dominic quote......Anyway in Oregon at least a Catholic Priest is expected to take any confession to the grave unless there us someone currently in danger. Personally I don't have a lot of faith in the civilized judicial system and could care less about the legalitys of confession but if a human is going to permit their morals to prevent them from doing the right thing then they are in no position to be instructing anyone in such matters....respectfully.