Noah's Ark

[Tynan Elder Oak]

If you look at the text carefully you will see that there are a couple of very interesting and little talked about verses.

Gen 6:11 Now the Earth wa corrupt in God's sight and full of violence. God saw how corrupt the Earth had become .....

In other translations it says the Earth was corrupt and the stench of it rose to heaven.....

My point is putting aside the problematic feature of ark volume, numbers of animals food etc..... the point being made was that man had corrupted the Earth and Earth was now corrupt.....

Does that ring any bells with anyone?

Not wishing to get in to Von Daniken territory or aliens or such like... but if at some point in the ancinet times there was a 'lost wisdom' that wanted to preserve knowledge and the Earth.... what better way to describe it than as an ark? Which represented safety and protect during troubled times....

Not to mention the fact that there are people doing similar now a days.... folk (like old Gerald Durrel Now dead) are out there rushing around trying desperately to preserve genetic material of plant and animal life before we (mankind the species) completely destroy's everything.

Instead of arguing about the myth, the tale, the belief systems of a people why not consider the implications of the story.... it is NOT just about an old man who is trying to be honourable with his family in tow, despite his intentions he is still filled with normal human frailties as one finds later in chapter 9 : 20 - 22 it is about poor mother Earth being so corrupted that she stank to high heavan and was dying under the filth (corruption) put there by mankind.

That's what we should be focusing on darling ones..... we are the peace makers and that means making peace with all that which is created.

[Florence]

Hi Tynan Elder Oak!!!!!!!!!!
I think your observation is pretty valid. Also it would explain why in ancient times existed some knowledge & wisdom that we are only recently starting to "re-discover". I mean -reading most of the ancient sacred books of the world- nowadays is becoming more clear that some "sacred" or "mystic" tales, stories, miracles and assertions in fact could be explained by science today. How can something like this be possible if it wasn't that some advanced civilization perished in the past and then everything went backwards except for some pieces of this ancient wisdom now scattered all over the earth and contained partially inside sacred books or texts -like the Bible or the hindu Vedas- and kept safe from being completely lost by being considered as "sacred", "mystic", "God's word" and so on..........
I'm not saying God doesn't exist, also I'm not trying to probe otherwise. It's not about "believing" or "not believing" in God or about questioning the sacrality of those books, I'm just trying to see things from another point of view.I think that if my theory is true -in part at least- this doesn't deny the existence of God nor does it probe it -and IMO that matter is up to each person and is something "private" so to speak . It's something else and as you say we should think about it.......only if to prevent another disaster like that again

[Kernos]

Great to see you Az and I love the Sisyphus² avatar - sort of like my life.

Noah? Local event turned into a legent by priestly politicians and not part of my Weltenshauung.

[Twig]

How come I always miss out on the good stuff? Better quit just checking "View active topics." This is a great discussion...

[Twig]

Whoa!! A novel reason for the flood. Seriously, there is a geology lesson, too. This fellow is speaking tomorrow night on Coast to Coast AM, should you be so inclined.

http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebo ... #wp2939200

[tecuani]

I always thought of the Noah's Ark story as more of a prophesy than history (though it seems likely there was a few thousand years ago a global flood that destroyed many civilizations). I think of the Svalbard 'Doomsday' seedbank as kindof like a modern Noah's Ark. As for the thing on the mountain in Turkey, I don't really know...

[Lady Nimue]

Welcome to the Board, tecuani.
I have always thought of Noah's tale as a metaphoric story, as well.

[Twig]

There are so many flood stories in various histories of that time, so perhaps the flood actually took place. But as far as a boat that size that could actually float and the herding of wild animals two-by-two onto said behemoth is the realm myth, IMHO.

Makes a great story, though!

[Lily]

You have to take into account that when these legends were writen down, the celtic realm already had had contact with Greco-Roman culture. So they might have absorbed the part or at least the nomenclature of the Titans. Could have been a celtic super-being.

[Florence]

The story of the Tuatha de Dannae who arrived to the "emerald island" -Ireland- after their homeland was destroyed by a natural catastrophe is another tale or myth that matches with these stories like Noah and his ark or Up Napitim in the Gilgamesh epic from Sumer. In some versions of the story the Tuatha de Dannae received a warning of what was going to happen but most of them decided to stay and trust in their godess Dannae protection. But a few decided otherwise and sailed east until they arrived Ireland. This story "rings a bell " too IMo. And the detail of a previous warning reminds me too of the stories of Sodom and Gomorra in the Biblle. Lot and his family were warned "by God" that the cities would be destroyed because of the sins and evil doings of their inhabitants so he could escape the fate of the rest of his people. Whether myths or true history these things repeat insistently in many ancient traditions. The interpretations for this are of a great variety. The possibility of an advanced ancient civilization who was destroyed is kind of the most veridic IMO toghether with the fact that the Tuatha de Dannae for instance were considered as magicians and powerful beings with what we'd call today supernatural powers is another hint of a probable scientific development which the other more primitive men couldn't understand so they called them "gods".
But as nothing has been proven definetly it keeps being mysterious and attractive to many. :

[Ainevar]

I have always had a hard time believing the ark story. Just well think of this. There at one time in recent history was probably 500 different members of the canine faimly. I mean thik about this. Some claim you need only one type of dog and all the others will slowly come. Sorry but no way do I believe U can get the Irish Wolf Hound or The Chihua out of just a random breed of dog. I guess even as a christian Noah's Ark was to hard to understand. I also never understood what would happen to a Incan guy in 1CE when he died. I was told he would go to hell because he had the chance to accept god's love. I guess I respect christianty but don't understand it and well that's that.

[Tynan Elder Oak]

As a Chrisitan and a Druid, there are a couple of points I would like to make. Please dont think of this as a rant, or criticism in any manner, it is merely my point of view.... I certainly do not hold with the idea that just becasue a poor inca guy didnt 'hear' about Jesus he was destined for hell... and I personally dont believe that the Godhead, (both male and female according to the origional Chaldean text....) I love would do that.... howver I know plenty of people who have made god in their own immage and becasue of THEIR issues would like to rain fire and sulpher on just about everyone who doesnt belive the way they beleive, and i dont find sound evidence that God approves of that either.....

Firstly there is so much we dont understand from the pre history days, but with out a shadow of a doubt some mega flood occured across pretty much the whole world as most indiginoeus peoples tell of the same story with their own cultural imperative..... most of these peoples would have had an oral tradition just as the Jewish people of their time and day did also. Out of the mists of time this oral tradition would have developed its own unique cultrural identity which would help others of that culture to understand why. and how they were around after such devastation and why they were to endeavour to ensure it didnt happen again. Over many eons this oral tradition in this partciular stream of identity, ie Jewish /Chrisitan became a written story, one that is now fixed with the cultural identity of the peoples it came from.

Secondly having been a Bible teacher my self, i can tell you most emphatically that what you may have been led to believe over the years, that causes you to "also never understood what would happen to a Incan guy in 1CE when he died. I was told he would go to hell because he had the chance to accept god's love." is a false premise and NOT what the Bible says at all..... so many 'churchgoers' simply take at face value what is supposed to be in the bible and never actually check it out themselves, if they did they would actually be in for a bit of an eye opener..... especially if they ever had the privallage, which I did, of checking it out in the origional, Chaldean, Hebrew and Greek...... in fact most people dont really know just how pro Druidism for instance the Bible actually is.......

Any way I digress.... the Bible does make statements about people making a choice to live in love, to choose life, but it does not say that everyone who has not had the gospel will go to hell...... in fact it states very clearly that even if a person had not had 'the gospel' they would still know about the love of god and the 'law' the word law in this instance means the written code which was handed down to the Jewish folk, . ... but it also meant an implicit law, what we would now recognise as an inate moral code, that is common in one form or another to all peoples. The writter Paul (who in my opinions certqainly had some issues to deal with, but dont we all...) goes on to speak about this 'law' not being one written on paper, but writtten on the heart... the implicit law of love...... Romans 2:14 says... "Indeed, when the Gentiles (for that read all those who were not concisered Jewish) who do not have the law, DO things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law (written code).... since they show the requirements of the law are written on their hearts their consciences also bearing witness and their thoughts now accusing now even defending them........

Oh bugger bugger bugger, I am frustrated as the origional scripture I was aluding to though, eludes me at this time, though I have spent some time looking for it... when I find it I will share it ....

Any way... the key thing about the whole flood story was that god, great spirit, however you personally define (if you do) the whole creative essence of what is... looked and saw that creation was suffering so much from the corruption of man, that it was groaning in agony,,,, let me ask how how can creation groan in agony if it iss not considered snetient? creation was so corruopted, so abused by man that despite its best efforts to heal itself was stibnking..... just like now in fact.... and needed a bloody good bath.... and that's exactly what happened.....

AS far as I can see, (I which I could recall where I read it...) .... but the person who said we can not live without creation, but she can do well (read better) without us.... WAS RIGHT...... and that my darlings is the main ppoint... if we cant love the land we live on, and help her to heal, the creative essence will, one way or another ensure that she will get a thorough cleansing... with or without our survival....

[Dryadia2]

... I certainly do not hold with the idea that just becasue a poor inca guy didnt 'hear' about Jesus he was destined for hell...

The linked article about Inca flood legends, that Florence provided above, didn't mention Viracocha, so here's an article that explains the mythology:
http://www.haktanir.org/ancientmysterie ... ochas.html

...There are many enigmatic relics which belong to the famous Europide population (part of Cro-Magnon, sometimes having the Brünn's or Predmost's features) which existed in South America (Eastern region), almost reaching the Western Australian shore and covering the Polynesian islands and the lands that sank during the last great deluge. We're talking about the population which was called by the Aymara Indians "Viracochas" ("the white man with red beard" or "the foam of the sea") and who called themselves, "The Sons of the Sun".

According to the Incas (1190 - 1570 A.D.), Viracocha was the creator of civilization. He was one of the most important gods and his name was not to be mentioned or pronounced by commoners.

According to "History of the Incas" by Pedro Sarmiento De Gamboa, "The natives of this land affirm that in the beginning, and before this world was created, there was a being called Viracocha. He created a dark world without sun, moon or stars. Owing to this creation he was named Viracocha Pachayachachi, which means "Creator of all things." And when he had created the world he formed a race of giants of disproportioned greatness painted and sculptured, to see whether it would be well to make real men of that size. He then created men in his likeness as they are now; and they lived in darkness.

Viracocha

Viracocha ordered these people that they should live without quarrelling, and that they should know and serve him." As men became bad, he decided to punish them; he turned them into stone, into things, and some were swallowed up by the earth and others by the sea. A general flood which they call uñu pachacuti, meaning "water that overturns the land", came over them. "They say that it rained 60 days and nights, that it drowned all created things, and that there alone remained some vestiges of those who were turned into stones, as a memorial of the event, and as an example to posterity, in the edifices of Pucara, which are 60 leagues from Cuzco."...

/|\

[Luai_lashire]

Not exactly related to the question of whether or not the flood happened, but-
A while ago I was doing a lot of research into the religions of the Australian Aborigines, and I found this:

According to the e-book Nourishing Terrains, which discusses aboriginal religious beliefs, the story of Noah’s Arc was accepted by many aboriginal groups, but their understanding of it was somewhat different from the Abrahamic version:
“In many parts of Aboriginal Australia this story has been heard and accepted. What Aboriginal people have done by way of accommodation is to localize the story. Arks are usually understood to be secret, and although I have seen several arks and heard of more, I have never been authorized to say much about them. It is certain, however, that there are numerous Arks in Australia. And none of these is Noah's Ark; rather these are all the other Arks~the Arks for all the other people and countries and animals.
“In the logic of country it is not possible that all the people of the world could have been dependent on One God, One Noah, One Ark. Clearly, every country must have had its own Ark. It does not surprise Aboriginal people that Europeans talk about Noah's Ark, because that one is theirs. But equally, it does not appear to be reasonable that Noah had a monopoly on God or a monopoly on Arks. Those things which are truly important happen everywhere.”

I thought that was a pretty interesting take on it....

[Lady Nimue]

Very kool...thanks.

[Florence]

I've really enjoyed these last posts on this topic !!!!
A couple of ideas:

Besides the Viracocha legend in Peru there's another "white bearded god" -the mexican Quetzacoatl- so many researchers have speculated about who were these "white bearded gods (or men?)" )mentioned among the aborigins.
Here's an article I found on Quetzacoatl:

Quetzalcoatl ,the White andBeared God
200px-Representación_del_Zapa_Inca.jpg

Author: * Xolotl Huascar - 79 Posts on this thread out of 322 Posts sitewide.
Date: Feb 5, 2003 - 17:21

INDIANS' UNIVERSAL TRADITION OF A "WHITE AND BEARDED GOD"

When the Spanish conquistadores and Catholic fathers first arrived on the shores of Mexico, Central America, and the various countries of South America, and when the English and French colonizers and missionaries first penetrated the vast wildernesses of Canada and the United States, they received from the Indian tribes scattered over the Western Hemisphere various versions of a tradition of a "White and Bearded God" who had in the distant past visited their ancestors, taught them their culture, and mysteriously disappeared, but who would eventually return to them. This "Fair God" we shall discuss under the title of Quetzalcoatl (Ket-sal-ko-at'l) by which he was known to the Aztec Indians of Mexico and their Toltec predecessors; however, he was known by various other names in the traditions of a number of other Indian tribes of North and South America.

Although the traditions from the various Indian groups regarding the "White Bearded God" do not agree in details, there being a variety of versions, yet in the principal points these Indian traditions from Canada in the north to Chile in the south have a close resemblance to one another. Dr. Daniel G...........

Link to full article:

http://www.ancientsites.com/aw/Post/101 ... horid=5407

And I bet Wikkipedia must have references of this too.

Many have speculated on possible viking travelers before Columbus, others on possible fenician ships arriving to the Americas and last but not least the Atlantis survivors as the origin of these tales. What is most interesting is that mostly the native american population (not only north american natives)have asiatic features and not much hair on their faces -no thick beards consequently- so these statues and descriptions on taller men, with paler skin and thick beards don't match the standard type of the aborigins.
Whether vikings or semitic people would match far better the description I guess.

But there's still another "mystery": the Olmec heads and the statues of Pascua. They have african features, thick lips and big mouths....if we consider all this the idea of an ancient and developed civilization who could travel across the planet as we do now seems more and more feasible. doesn't it?

Another question is : where did they eventually go? By the time Spain arrived to the Americas they had vanished. There's only one exception I've heard of in Peru : the Inca (king), the priests and the noblemen and warriors- the upper class in one word- were taller, with fair skin and different from the commomners. In fact I realized the upper chambers in Macchu Picchu have taller roofs than the lower ones and the guide told me Pizarro had told about this differences when he related his first contact with Incan civilization.But the truly "incas" arrived to Peru only in the V century of our era and the aborigins had been there for a far longer time. Where did they go anyway? Today they have dissapeared from Peru.

Some speculate with the legend of the inner earth race and say they emerged from these inner cities through the tunnels in the Andes and then returned home when the spaniards arrived....but this is part of the legend also I guess...
Another pecualiarity was that these "white men" who ruled the Incan empire practiced polygamy while the ordinary people were allowed to have only one wife. I wonder if this was because of some birth control issues? Obviously having only one wife reduces the number of offspring with respect with poligamous men......
Well this more a disgression and I've wandered a little...anyway there's a mention of the great flood in the mexican book "Popl Wuh" I think- and this was one of the few codices who survived colonization............

[lavouivre]

Interesting thread!
The myth of a big flood can be found:
- in the story of Noah's ark
- In the epic of Gilgamesh in Middle East
- In the myth of Deucalion in Greece
- in french Brittany the story of the city of Ys
- in the story of Manu and Vishnu in India
- in the story og Emperor Yao in China
- in Australia with Tidalik the Frog
- in the Prose Edda with the giant Ymir and the great world serpent Jormungandr
- in the Native American stories, the Mi'kmaq, the Hopi, the Caddo and the Menominee (with Manabus the Trickster) have flood stories
- idem with the Tlapanec, Huaxtecs, Aztecs and Totonacs people.
- in the Maya story of Popol Vuh
- in the Inca story of Viracocha
- in Egypt with Ra and Hator (this one is kind of funny)

There are several scientific hypothesis.
- by obeservation of Nature : from Wikipedia: "flood stories were inspired by ancient observations of seashells and fish fossils inland and on mountains. The ancient Greeks, Egyptians, Romans, and Chinese all wrote about finding such remains in these locations, and the Greeks hypothesized that Earth had been covered by water several times, noting seashells and fish fossils found on mountain tops as evidence. Native Americans also expressed this belief in their early encounters with Europeans, though they had not written it down previously."
- some geologists think the dramatic sudden regional floods occurred with rivers, Mediterranean Sea or Black Sea, influencing legends afterwards.
- some talk about a tsunami following the volcano eruption on Thera or a meteor crashing into the Indian Ocean (undersea Burckle crater).
- or the end of the ice age causing sea levels to rise

I would add, it might also be the ancients' old sci-fi stories, based on what they thought might have been a global warming of the times? They would notice the weather change, then invent stories (like we do with movies: the Day After Tomorrow, etc) and with time they became myths.
Perhaps, as we have not really changed after all, what the ancient wanted was a "clean slate", a clean beginning to cut themselves off from the societies they did not approve of. A kind of cleansing of humankind. The old age dies and then begins a new area that is more satisfying.