Defamation of Religion Passes at U.N. Human Rights Council

[cursuswalker]

A real issue when tackling the religiously intolerant/extreme is the issue of offending moderates. I have no qualms about offending anyone who would wish to impose their religious beliefs upon me, but to do so one has to make comments that moderates might also find offensive.

There is no real way around this. The only ultimate way to confront an extremist is to make it clear that their attempts to control your freedom of speech do not work by saying the exact things they do not feel you should, such as referring to Mohammed's deserved place on the Child Protection Register or the remarkable love for Jesus on his entry into Jerusalem by a population that were baying for his blood within a couple of days (which has been used to justify such delights as pogroms right up to the Holacaust).

One can only hope that moderates "get it". But their failure to do so cannot be a reason to desist from confronting the most hateful mindsets that believers in freedom have to confront in our world.

[Druid Faqir]

Peace!
From my part you can be as virulent against Bin Laden (and others like him) as you like. I have no qualms about it either.
As for Muhammad and A'isha, I think it's time I wrote a little something on Hadith. It may well be centuries over due but, oh well...better late then never...

Blessings!
/|\

[cursuswalker]

Peace!
From my part you can be as virulent against Bin Laden (and others like him) as you like. I have no qualms about it either.
As for Muhammad and A'isha, I think it's time I wrote a little something on Hadith. It may well be centuries over due but, oh well...better late then never...

Blessings!
/|\

Thank you. And remember that my only point is that if it is okay to condemn my culture by the standards of a desert culture of 1.5 millenia ago, and for the same not to apply the other way solely on the basis of Allah being real, then it is reasonable to ask for evidence of the existence of Allah and for Mohammed having actually been a prophet.

No such condemnation, no such requirement for evidence.

[Beachgirl]

Ah, Merlin, I'm only a lowly "reformed" Jew, as opposed to the conservative or orthodox followers. Even though I was schooled in the religion, my family were not, and we only observed a few holidays each year, because all my parents' friends did, too. But this I do know: all life is sacred. When you kill a person, you annihilate a universe. That is a Jewish teaching, and one of the few that I have embraced in my life. As for the belief that Jews are the "chosen" people, I think that's public relations in its earliest form. "Join us, we're special!" It is only my opinion, but I believe that the old and new testaments are nothing more than recruiting devices, that also happen to teach a few good manners along the way. That's one of the reasons I'm an atheist. You can have "good manners," be ethical in your dealings with other beings, and regard all life as sacred without all the "Rah! Rah! Our god's better than your's!" cr*p.

I've only had one encounter with orthodox Jews, and it was fairly amusing to me. My Israeli ex-husband needed a religious divorce, even though we were married at the clerk's office, and divorced by the same clerk, after he got his greencard. He was marrying an orthodox woman, and she insisted. So I showed up at rabbinical court on Thanksgiving -- they didn't recognize the holiday, or obviously the decrees of the State of California! They were a world unto themselves, right in the middle of Los Angeles. But they were worldly, too, and very aware of their perception by the world. It was truly an interesting day.

[cursuswalker]

One problem is that our Western-Liberal values (which I happen to agree with) demand the separation of the religious and the secular, and for very good reasons in pluralist societies. This is very far from being a universal value.

[Beachgirl]

So, does the activity in this thread mean that we all haven't played "Faith Fighters" before it is removed from view????? Do we believe that it promotes racism? Oh, yeah. Would that stop me from getting a kick out of it? no........

Sorry, but the image in my mind of all these man-made dieties launching lightening and other such natural phenomena at each other makes me

[Corwen]

The new version is funny too, Mohammed's face is blacked out and Cthulu is floating about in the background!

[DJ Droood]

Judge: Men can slap wives who spend lavishly
Husbands are allowed to slap their wives if they spend too much, a Saudi judge said recently during a seminar on domestic violence, Saudi media reported Sunday. They've been raised to see women this way, that they're less than a person," Saudi women's rights activist Wajeha Al-Huwaider told CNN

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/05/10/saudi.court.wife.slapping/index.html


(and the U.N. resolution is going to help women in Muslim nations how?)

[Aelfarh]

Oh but Saudi Arabia is willing to cooperate and sell its oil to the west, so no freedom, democracy or human rights are needed there.

[Merlyn]

Hi Beachgirl,
I have known Jewish friends on a very personal level, but there is always a kind of relationship mentality I avoid with them. However because I am druid, it is oddly accepted, and not the instant rejection I get from devoted Christians. The magical side of the Jewish faith is strong and seemingly more accepting that spirituality includes this as normal.
Funny how the Christian faith is conflicted in this, and with water becoming wine, so long as it is a miracle that's ok.

My deeper feelings on this subject are that if a form of religion is not able to find love of others within and as well reform to evolve, it is a failed and sad "cult".


Merlyn

[bayemtur]

This is an old thread but I thought I might add a few words. I haven't read all the replies for forgive me if I'm restating something already said.

Having spent a lot of time in Indonesia (the country with the largest Muslim population in the world), I often find the generalizations floated around about Islam to be both absurd and close-minded.

Islam is not what the news portray it as, the media is interested in sensationalism and presenting subjects in a black and white manner . There are many sects of Islam with various approaches to interpretation of texts and to which texts they ascribe to. In Islam the sacred texts are the Old Testament and Quran, and for some the Hadith. The problem with the Hadith is that they were not written by Mohammed only about Mohammed often times centuries later. Different sects of Islam argue as to which Hadith are true. Some say all of them are, some pick and choose, some think the only ones that are valid are ones that conform with the Quran, and some believe none of them are valid as the Quran states that no one should believe any religious texts after the Quran.

Muslims I've met both in Indonesia and in the United States believe things such as the Danish cartoons are nothing more than immature provocations and nothing more. Freedom of speech is valued by my friends and although sometimes they find such affronts to their religion to be hurtful, they do believe those causing such affronts have the right to do so.

...anyways now for a little story...
A number of years ago I traveled to Cirebon, a city on the island of Java in Indonesia. I was there studying the traditional music and culture of the area. A friend there thought as I was studying there culture I should visit the tomb of Sunan Gunung Jati, an Islamic saint that holds great admiration from the people and artists of the area. We traveled to the tomb which was just a bit outside the main city. The buildings slowly passed away turning into green, the stench of open sewers and factories giving way to the fresh smell of forests near the sea. We arrived to a bustling little area of shops selling religious items to the devotees going to the tomb. The tomb was located just past these shops on a hill which serves as the graveyard for the descendants of Sunan Gunung Jati. Making our way through ornately carved gravestones surrounded by trees of teak, mango,and jackfruit, we ascended the hill moving up through the generations to the ancestor in the tomb above. We met the gate keepers to the open aired building housing the tomb. My friend spoke briefly with the shoeless modest gatekeepers who tend to the burning of incense, making of offerings and general care of the tomb. Taking off our shoes and donning proper attire we proceeded forth. We found a number of devotees bowing, praying, sleeping, seeking divine inspiration. The grave of Sunan Gunung Jati itself nobody but his descendants are allowed to visit, so the devotees come to pray at a large hewn teak wood door, beyond which lies the grave. It was beautiful, gorgeous, and emanated the power of the divine. We sat there for a while observing and relishing in the power of the place. After a bit of time we made our way back out. When we arrived at the gate keepers, my friend spoke once again to them. I didn't understand the language but it sounded like she was trying to convince them of something. At last he seemed to agree, at which point I was taken on another path moving further up the hill, and curving back around to above where the Saint's tomb was. At the very top there was a small square gate surrounding a square hole maybe 2 feet in width. At this point my friend told me what it was. She called it the navel of the earth. Again we sat and relished in the power of the area for a while. Then we made our departure from the navel of the earth, the tomb of the saint, down through the generations buried beneath our feet, back to the row of shops. At this point I expected to head back to the city, but was surprised when my friend said there was another place she wanted to show me. At the end of the shops we came out upon the main road heading back to town. The place she wanted to show me was the hill across the road. This hill she explained to me was Gunung Jati, the hill the Saint was named after. Gunung translates as hill or mountain, Jati means teak. We were heading to the hill of the teak trees. We crossed and began to climb the hill, the teak trees were much denser here, and gravestones were also found on this hill albeit much more modest not so ornately carved and cared for. There were other people on the hill, all heading upwards to the top. We came upon a line of people, waiting for something I wasn't sure of. Those at the front of the line came back down the hill with their knees dirty and their hands muddied clasping something in them. As we neared the front of the line I began to glimpse what going on. There was a small cave barely large enough for one person, and each person in turn knelt inside reaching out for something, returning with muddied hands. It turns out what everyone was bringing back with them was the same thing that dirtied their hands, sacred earth.

....I shared this little story for one reason, to show that these people who were Muslim, shared so much in common with Druidry. Their Saint named for a hill covered in forest, and buried within the navel of the earth. Them collecting sacred earth for healing, and praying, meditating, on these two hills for inspiration, clarity, and blessings.

Yes, I'm sure those like Osama bin Laden would say that these people weren't true Muslims. But all of my friends that regularly voyaged to this place of worship, pray 5 times a day, fast during Ramadan, and many have made the pilgrimage to Mecca. They are devout Muslims seeking the divine within the trees and the Earth.

All in all, the trouble with insulting another religion comes down to realizing that no religion is black and white, Osama bin Laden isn't Islam. He may quote pieces of the Quran out of context to get people to do his will, but many in history in many religions have done this as well. Hitler quotes the Bible in Mein Kampf, but is he representative of what it is to be Christian? Some white supremacists claim Asatru as a faith, but does this mean all Asatru are racist? The media loves things to be black and white. This is why Pagans are considered by many to worship Satan. Do some Pagans worship Satan? It's possible, but that doesn't make all of us Satan worshippers.

[Ainevar]

Bayemtur thanks for sharing your story and also welcome to the board.

[FoxPhantom]

From what I learned about paganism, that they have had there butts kicked by propaganda. But they continue on with there rituals, and healing, since most know it's not true. But people are people after all, and some do throw a nasty false info of what religion is safe and what is under the work of the devil, but it's like asking to get smacked back. Still, down to the point, I do think that with out the right knowledge of a persons religion, that no one will find what it means to them. unless the person goes forth and finds it himself. (May it be in books, the internet or even if the gods comes through dreams, that it might help.) With today's news, I don't really watch about people's religions, since it's confusing to me to what is right, or what was forgotten in the process.

[cursuswalker]

Religions are ideologies.

Ideologies seek to change the world we all live in and can agree is real.

Any ideology that seeks to do this HAS to be open to criticism, satire and ridicule in a free society.

[Frog]

Finally got round to reading this thread.

We all very aware that in this world there are those who are very committed to their beliefs and will not see the other side's view - whether that's politics, religion or football. When that kind of a mind is fixed on something, it will be nigh on impossible to change the viewpoint.

However, what we can do (especially for those of us that work with young people) is to introduce tolerance and understanding of our fellow man with the peaceful intention that they will make the changes in this world, or perpetuate what is going on.

Blessings
frog

[dvawlqos]

Peace!

if a religion cannot stand scrutiny and criticism

In my book "defamation" means insult, not criticism. Those are 2 distinct things. You can criticise and examine all you want. Insulting is a verry different issue, but people on both sides consider them the same thing (relious folk see criticism as insult and secularists legitimise insult by labeling it criticism) and that's WRONG in both instances.
Blessings!
/|\

Well the problem isn't the legitamate critics of religion who might take things too far, but the practical result will be that the ability to rationally discuss the good, bad and ugly of any religion is going to be curtailed, because it's not the critic who gets to define what defamation is, but the religions. And especially for Islam, the list of potential insults is pretty long. In fact there was an incident in Africa in which a teacher allowed the class to name the class rodent "Muhammed" which is apparently an insult to Islam. Christianity isn't far behind except that it's penalties for "defamation" tend to be much less severe.

I didn't like the Muhammad cartoons simply because they were in really bad taste. Provoking people just to provoke them is stupid and rude. But making a law like this is going to curtail free speech to the levels of the most restrictive cultures. That's going to do more to hold back human progress than the actual insults.

[Myrde]

Little late on this, but felt I had to reply.

Bayemtur; trully interesting story! Anyone wanna head to Java with me? Sounds like a trip worth taking...

*sighs and fingers his collar* Here's... the problem... I wish I could claim to have a trully open mind, especially with the concept of Islam. However, I'm mature enough to say that, sadly, I'm not.

This sounds cruel, immature, and ignorant. That is because I am young; we are immature and ignorant to the world. I only have my 19 years of life to fall back on and try to understand things, while you all might decades.

While, I personally believe that most Muslims are noble people, especially here in the United States... it's their brothers and sisters over seas that I fear. They are the unorganized and uneducated masses. They are like the Crusaders... one well Iman could call a Jihad and I, personally, fear that many would trully leap on the chance too.

Sadly, it's that mentality that is currently in place of the leadership in those countries. Fortunately, it's being overthrown (finally) by the people. UNFORTUNATELY, we have no idea who can take the mantle that these leaders leave behind. Someone more "faithful" to the teaching of the Quaran could fill their place, or someone more liberal. It's that mentality which, if I'm not very much mistaken, allowed Catholicism to rule all of Europe as an empire unto itself.

Personally, I'm scared of Islam. Not the kind in which you act out outrageously or continue to scream insults to defend yourself. But for me, it's more like being in the woods, and having a predator circle you at a distance, and you've locked eyes with each other. You don't know whats going to happen. It could rip out your throat, or it could leave you alone. But for the moment, its just there.

Muhammed was a warrior prophet, there is no denying that. There is no deny that after he founded Islam, he spread it with the sword. As it continued to be spread.

Just like Christianity.

And ignorant person is a dangerous person. That goes for Christian, Buddhist, or Muslim. But the future of Muslim... will it dominate an empire? Or stay within the sands it originated...

[cursuswalker]

"Defamation of political beliefs Passes at U.N. Human Rights Council"

Such a resolution would be rightly labelled the end of global democracy. So why do so many people attach different values to ideologies that seek to change the world we all share, but just happen to justify such opinions with reference to the existence of entities the existence of which cannot be proved?