The Spirit in All Things

[Druid Faqir]

Peace!

Allow me to bring forth THE fundamental notion behind SPIRITuality. What is Spirit and how do you aprehend this notion? An eternal entity known as "Soul"? Something to do with the mind? A mode of behaviour? A sensation of sorts? I'd like to hear opinions from both religious folks and atheists here... Answers from the later should be quite interesting...

Blessings!
/|\

[Corwen]

I don't know about Spirit, as I've never seen it, but I can see personhood and that's more important to me, respecting the human and other-than-human persons around irrespective of any metaphysical attributes they may or may not have... Perhaps this is just a linguistic difference, if you mean by Spirit what I mean by personhood.

[saphera]

This is my idea.
As a comparison to something we know....... a story book...
We are the characters.. the elements in a story all connecting and interacting....spelling out the story.
Spirit is the story. You cannot see a story or touch a story you can only come to know it and enjoy it by allowing the characters to tell it through their connections and interactions.
Everything, everyone and everything that happens, has a part in the story...a part in the Spirit.
How you feel about and understand the story depends on how you can read and interpret the language the story is written in.
- saphera

[Druid Faqir]

Peace!
Yes,Corwen,it is only a difference of words. I understand it to be precissely thus.
And this story-Spirit metaphor...I find it fitting as well as inspiring, Saphera.
Blessings!
/|\

[johnpaul.riley]

My two cents, first a caution, it is difficult to use words to answer this question. Language by it's nature, carries with it assumptions and walls that we do not even recognize which limit the ability to answer this question. Nonetheless, words are all we have on this forum.
So here is my best effort.

Consider this as an answer for one of any belief system, religious or atheist:

Spirit is the name we give to the experience, the feel of being in an altered state, some religions call this "the holy spirit" or "a state of grace" or "Awakened" or to be in "love" or the "Awen". In this altered state, we receive access to information, knowledge, wisdom, which provides real advancement and real manifestion in the world. If one is a careful observer, then you can test the truth of this knowledge by seeing what happens when you act and don't act on the information and wisdom that comes to you in this state. I have seen being after being whom act on this knowledge achieve amazing feats, to know and say things they would have no other way of knowing or seeing, and likewise suffering come to those who do not heed the wisdom. I will not argue with any other being whether or not this is "real" or "true". That does not enter into it for this explanation, because I have seen the experience of my own eyes provide me with all the evidence I need, for myself and for others. Whatever the source, whatever the underlying reality which provides this state of being, it is real, and provides real information that provides real insight when we listen to it.

That is why for myself, I strive to see beyond labels such as "atheist" or "religious", even though I label myself "Druid" and "Spiritual". It is because atheism is just a word, but atheists also can enter this altered state, and can find it within themselves to call it atheism. I am not one to judge any word anyone uses.

When I see a person who acts with integrity, who is compassionate, and manifests loving-wisdom by their actions, they may call themselves an atheist or a Buddhist, or a Christian, or a Pagan, but my Spirit names them "Brother on the Path".

My all beings be blessed, may all beings who thirst drink deeply from the wells of Tir'N an-Og, that they should taste the waters of loving-wisdom, and be awakened.

[Donata]

Well said John Paul!

BB
Donata

[Druid Faqir]

I have seen being after being whom act on this knowledge achieve amazing feats, to know and say things they would have no other way of knowing or seeing, and likewise suffering come to those who do not heed the wisdom. I will not argue with any other being whether or not this is "real" or "true". That does not enter into it for this explanation, because I have seen the experience of my own eyes provide me with all the evidence I need, for myself and for others. Whatever the source, whatever the underlying reality which provides this state of being, it is real, and provides real information that provides real insight when we listen to it.

I believe in Chinese circles this would be termed "following Dao" and this is what Mencius called "Destiny" (not to be taken to mean "Fate").

Mencius also believed in the power of Destiny in shaping the roles of human beings in society. What is destined cannot be contrived by the human intellect or foreseen. Destiny is shown when a path arises that is both unforeseen and constructive. Destiny should not be confused with Fate. Mencius denied that Heaven would protect a person regardless of his actions, saying, "One who understands Destiny will not stand beneath a tottering wall". The proper path is one which is natural and unforced. This path must also be maintained because, "Unused pathways are covered with weeds." One who follows Destiny will live a long and successful life. One who rebels against Destiny will die before his time.
(wikipedia)

Interesting observations, John!
Blessings!
/|\

[Oran_ap_Beith]

I have spent a good deal of time with Lakota people. They have a prayer or affirmation "Mitakuye Oyasin".
This means, everything is related or we all are relatives.
Meaning literally everything that has spirit is one. and connected as we are all part of the great mystery ,Wakan Tanka.
The great mystery is the spirit in all things.

Where there is life there is spirit and where there is spirit there is life.

[Twyrch]

As I've stated elsewhere on the board at times, I believe each being contains a spirit and that when death takes our physical form, the spirit is released as energy in a different frequency of being. The human spirit operates within a specific frequency range, but some humans have spirits whose frequency is closer to the edge of those who pass over, such as mediums and sensitives. A human is merely a more highly evolved form of animal, really, so all animals contain spirits as well.

The theory of various frequencies of being goes far in explaining many paranormal events and it explains why mediums and other sensitives can communicate with the dead. I haven't bought into the idea of reincarnation, however, I don't disbelieve in it either. I just haven't made up my mind yet. I can't see how Christians can believe Mary was impregnated by a spirit and not believe that a spirit can reside within a new life, after its original physical death many years earlier.

I have touched an angel and I have seen 3 demons in my life, so I also believe in positive and negative energies. What exactly happens to the spirit after physical death, aside from being released from the body, is anyone's guess.

[Dendrias]

Hey, Twyrch (et al.)

Is that frequency-thing just a metaphor for something else, to make something different understandable?

The Mary-Spirit <-> spirits dilemma can be solved very quickly: Mary wasn't impregnated by a spirit, but by the Spirit. You've surely read up on trinity - that's it. No spirits in here, by the Spirit. You have to make a difference!

Oran-ap-Beith, is the Lakota-people's concept limited to living creatures, or would Corwen's "personhood", which as I understand, he might also attribute to tools, fit in?
The Stoics, if I can remember correctly, believed a "pneuma" going through everything, but a "logos" residing in living beings.
As if by irony, the Holy Spirit in Greek is the Pneuma Hagion, while the "soul" is "psyche" - you have to make a difference in here, as well.

[Binky]

@Druid Faqir - I call myself an atheist (though I am starting to think a more neutral standpoint is perhaps better fitted; instead of outright saying there are no gods or goddesses), I don't really understand how the answers from the latter would be any more interesting than those of religious folks; we can all believe in spirit of some kind without there having to be any affiliation whatsoever between them and deities of any denomination.

My feeling is that each 'living' being is in a way 'possessed' by a spirit entity. Similarly to how Twyrch explained it, including the theory on frequency; though I would also add that I am not ruling out other planes.

@Dendrias - The 'frequency-thing' could be used as a metaphor. For example the spectrum of light; which possibly expands further than we have been able to detect, from ultraviolet to infra-red with each colour having a different frequency. Our (visual) viewing range covers the frequencies within only a narrow range. I suppose it's a bit like having tunnel vision.

I will try to to explain as best I can using the following diagram:



The whole circle embodies all possible planes of existence (all wavelengths), the frontal arc in yellow (with solid borders) is our normal viewing range and our perceived reality. The blue arc shows us another plane of existence with the solid borders showing their viewing range. It is possible that someone from the yellow plane can see into the blue plane (see the segmented border) due to the wavelengths required for sight (or any sense) would only be of a slight variation to ours. Therefore we only get the chance to glimpse into other planes of existence (if they 'border' us) that otherwise inhabit the same time and place. The same goes for them, though beings that exist on the other 'planes' may have narrower or wider viewing arcs or even be able to manifest / affect other 'planes' (which could explain poltergeists, ghosts etc... though the same reasoning might apply to them that we are invading their 'plane').

[Dendrias]

Ta, Binky.
I "know" things about light and its perception. All I wanted to know was, whether "frequency" was a metaphor, or not.
If a living being is possessed by a spirit entity - is it living on its own, or is life only possible by the presence of the spirit being? What do You think?

[Binky]

Well; it also serves as a brief(?) explanation for anyone else that didn't quite understand... so long as they can understand my explanation of it of course
Frequency would be a fitting analogy / metaphor. I suppose only Twyrch can comment as to whether that is what he meant.

Hmmm, wow! I've never really thought about it like that. It depends on your definition of life!
Well; I suppose we would have to consider ourselves as vessels into which a spirit (being some kind of eternal entity) may choose to enter at creation, willingly suppressing its knowledge to the deepest subconscious so as not to overwhelm the 'vessel's physiology. For the duration of the 'vessels' life it would be a purely symbiotic relationship with the exception that if through some means we learn to leave the body... an out of body experience through meditation or some other means for example. I have read it is possible to have the sensation (or real view) looking back onto our body from above; even though the body still breathes and the blood pumps through its veins awaiting our return, would you consider it alive? It will not seek out nourishment, rest, or to procreate among other things until the time the out of body experience is chosen to be ended by the entity outside the body (atleast that is what I would assume, has it been tested?).
Once death comes for the vessel (or if it is chosen by the spirit beforehand should it be able to) the spirit entity will be released and will return to its plane (regaining all its suppressed knowledge and that of the life in the vessel it just came from) until such a time it is ready to return; should it wish, or it could find another plane to try out!

And I think I shall leave it there before I ramble any further.

@Dendrias - What is Your view on the topic? As you seem quite happy prodding other peoples notions!

[Dendrias]

Sorry, I didn't mean to prod. Well, in a positive way, I did. I didn't even know the word. Forgive me, if I was annoying.

But, You're right, I should show my cards. But, alas, I'm more of an agnostic.
Up to now, I used to live my life with the assumption, that matter and spirit exist. Matter is "what you can touch, smell and see", while spirit is what gives life to living things. But spirit is dispersed throughout the world and holding it together. In my childhood, I used to be a fan of Star Wars, as You can see. So, I totally agree to the Lakota people, I think.
Unfortunately, I haven't made any experiences like You or as Corwens seems to have (as far as I think), although I tried to: I haven't made OOB experiences, I wasn't able to see or even feel the presence of ghosts, spirits, gods, energy, earth, I never made contact to a plant except by watering or eating it.
And still I assume what I said above. I'm not quick at learning, it seems.

[Binky]

Prodding is good! No need to apologise, it got me thinking.

I am often drawn to the scientific way of explaining things and therefore try to find the information that would confirm things before I believe, however I do feel myself slowly becoming more open to the pure belief side of things. Though I will probably always try to search for an explanation for things, I hope that I will be content without one.
I haven't really had much in the way of experiences on the subject, it's just my understanding of how it seems most likely to me given the knowledge I have.
I am sure some things will be answered as we journey on our paths, but we need the mystery, not knowing things for certain... and it's good to be proven wrong once in a while!

[Druid Faqir]

Interesting stuff so far... Now I supose it's my turn...

The way I see it, if you concieve of "spirit" and "matter" as separate, different things (be they as simbiotic as simbiotes can be), somewhere along the way you end up with an unsolvable hodge-podge of either the "strictly material" type or the "idealistic-spiritual" kind. Say you have an organism of any stripe. In this separatist view, if you're a materialist and thing of the Cosmos as just blind stuff, well then you have to ask what the heck life IS? I mean how does a bunch of atoms (which is essentially what all living things are in a physical sense) become aware of itself--as any living thing is? Who organises tissue growth and so on? And they'll get all academic and say "Well, there IS something called DNA... " and then explain how DNA works with its 4 tipes of aminoacids and how different combinations of these 4 in pairs make up different genes and so forth. But push it even further and ask "So what is it that MAKES the DNA program everything in a given organism?" That's a bit like asking what started the Big Bang... we don't really know. And that is NOT a problem, and it's not something I consider to be either a good or bad thing. If you take the other, "spiritual" side of this spirit-matter split, you end up with even greater cunundrums such as who created souls, for what purpose, what's the "correct" mode of worshiping the creator, Heaven, Hell and a whole array of supernatural beings and events to put this split into context.
What science as well as genuine religious experience (the kind that the Buddha or Jesus themselves had, as well as anyone probing the depths of their being--yes, people like you amd me) are showing is, I believe, that neither is matter stupid and blind, nor is "spirit" a sort of little flashing ball of light which either goes on a permanent vacation somewhere, gets a ticket on the torture ride or anything like that. "Spirit" is the inherent inteligence of the Cosmos, who's beginings we have no means of understanding (remember, it's called the Big Bang theory) except by way of experince. and that experience has variously been termed enlightenment, salvation, liberation or what have you. The main thing, the crux of it all is that this inteligence (which bears a whole lot of names from Brahman of the Hindus to the Pneuma of the Greeks and Dao of the Chinese--note that all 3 are impersonal, not Gods) is what we don't see around us. And because we've generally thought of matter as stupid stuff we had to project the inteligence part on an entity external to everything which we called a creator and whitch we invested with a specific personality etc. Well, now that we've dropped the idea of a cosmic Emperor, we have been forced to ask ourselves "So... then...where did all this come from?" Inaproprietly short answer: Spontaneity and inteligence are the 2 caracteristics of existence. If you will ask me "Ok, so who made mater inteligent?", I can't give you a discoursive answer. When asked what Dao was, a Zen master answered "None other than your own self." And that is as close as I can get to verbalizing it.
Peace!
/|\

[Coreylee]

The Hermetics described it like this, and if it's good enough for them it's good enough for me. They said that the universe was a part of a dream. It was sort of the dream of the Source, or the All. They had a name for it but that escapes me at this moment. Spirit was in all things because all things are part of the spirit ultimately. We are like characters in a dream, they have somewhat control of thierselves, but the dreamer can control as well, ultimately it is the dreamer's dream after all. I've always thought that was a beaultiful way to look at it. We have difficulty understanding the divine because we are ultimately a prt of it. Characters in a story can't tell the whole of the story because they are inside of it, but the story is very clear to the reader, in this case the divine.

[Druid Faqir]

The Hermetics described it like this, and if it's good enough for them it's good enough for me. They said that the universe was a part of a dream. It was sort of the dream of the Source, or the All. They had a name for it but that escapes me at this moment. Spirit was in all things because all things are part of the spirit ultimately. We are like characters in a dream, they have somewhat control of thierselves, but the dreamer can control as well, ultimately it is the dreamer's dream after all. I've always thought that was a beaultiful way to look at it. We have difficulty understanding the divine because we are ultimately a prt of it. Characters in a story can't tell the whole of the story because they are inside of it, but the story is very clear to the reader, in this case the divine.

Ah, yes... The Great Play, Mahamaya they call it eastwards. We all dream that we dream that we are in a dreaming. (sort of...)

[saphera]

When we speak of a deed and seek to describe its motivational place in the emotional frequency spectrum... we might use the notion of spirit in the description...
Something is done from...

The spirit of forgiveness,
the spirit of hopelessness,
the spirit of distraction,
the spirit of betrayal,
the spirit of hope,
the spirit of abundance,
the spirit of want,
the spirit of happiness,
the spirit of joy,
the spirit of love.....

So like light....maybe the human ego condition.....is like the prism that breaks pure light up into all its beautiful colours.
And the Spirit we all seek to know is the total of all tones of spirit....and as a human we can only ever see it through our eyes as the individual colours of the parts.
Like the Gods and Goddesses....all essences of the Spirit or God in everything. (God... Guiding, Organizing, Delivering...)

And we speak about 'spirited' encounters, or discussions, or actions....spirit is the motivation that drives and guides and manifests exactly what is needed.
saphera

[Random]

This is good, meaty discussion! Thanks to everyone for participating.

They said that the universe was a part of a dream. It was sort of the dream of the Source, or the All. They had a name for it but that escapes me at this moment. Spirit was in all things because all things are part of the spirit ultimately. We are like characters in a dream, they have somewhat control of thierselves, but the dreamer can control as well, ultimately it is the dreamer's dream after all.

So what would you all say is the relationship between Spirit and free will? Here's a couple of thoughts I've had on it:

1. If all things contain Spirit of some kind (or even if all life contains Spirit of some kind) then free will is an entirely separate discussion because it requires sentience. Is that true?

2. If we are the universe examining itself OR if we are pieces of God actualizing His goodness (as Judaism teaches) OR for any reason that involves a piece of the universe/Spirit/God becoming individual and separate (still with me?) then how do we tell if we are accomplishing that purpose? We all may have contradictory ideas of what is good. That seems to come with free will.

Too obtuse?