Blasphemy?

[DJ Droood]

you are right, I just chose them all
Your answer made me laugh!

You know, "talking about the sex of the angels" is an expression. I didn't mean sexual life at all, but as you point out, gender. In Byzance, they would discuss very seriously on angels' gender even though the town was besieged by the Turks. The expression remained, but maybe I didn't translate it well. English is not my first language

Sort of like "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" That describes the content of debate in many threads around here.....what is that other expression?...plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose....?

[lavouivre]

plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose....?

yes! we do seem to do the same things all over again! There is also "there is nothing as new as what has been forgotten".
We talk about trees feeling pain, and meanwhile, the Egyptians are struggling for their freedom, and how many times have we fought for our freedom, in the history of humanity?

But I had fun today, discussing trees... I guess with the amount of snow and ice storms we have had in NY this year, I do long for trees and green leaves.

Everyone on this thread, have a good night!

[Huathe]

Green, ahh yes...

[Explorer]

The expression remained, but maybe I didn't translate it well. English is not my first language

oooh, I didn't know it was an expression, english is not my first language either.

[Aylyn]

but I wouldn't call that 'feeling pain', which to me means becoming aware of a sensation (or emotion).

If at a camp you lifted the hot water kettle which has just been taken out of the fire, you would probably drop it withing milliseconds, as soon as your nerves signal you that you are just burning yourself on the hot metal. So you felt it way before your conscious mind starts thinking "Hmm, I have this unpleasant sensation in my hand, and I am getting blisters, maybe should put the kettle down".

I have operated on animals as well, and when you anaesthesize them, you have to make sure they are deep enough in anaesteshia to be operated on, and there is 2 ways to find out: By touching the corner of their eyes, as there is a protective reflex to close eyes when touched, and by pinching them at a toe. If they are still feeling pain, they will pull their paws away. By that time, they are already sleeping deeply, and the conscious part of their mind is gone, so while they are not aware of the pain, they still feel it. That's why for me awareness of pain is different from the feeling of pain.

[Explorer]

but I wouldn't call that 'feeling pain', which to me means becoming aware of a sensation (or emotion).

If at a camp you lifted the hot water kettle which has just been taken out of the fire, you would probably drop it withing milliseconds, as soon as your nerves signal you that you are just burning yourself on the hot metal. So you felt it way before your conscious mind starts thinking "Hmm, I have this unpleasant sensation in my hand, and I am getting blisters, maybe should put the kettle down".

Reflexes. Unconscious reactions of the 'vegetative' autonomous nerve system. You call an automated response to external stimuli: 'feeling pain'.
A terribly confusing and wrong term to use in that context, especially because you also use it as a sort of moral judgement about hurting those poor trees.

And THAT is the invalid step that bothers me. You cannot conclude from an "automated response to external stimuli" that an organism has a "mental and emotional awareness", that we should be considerate of. And what bothers me even more is that you sneak in that connection almost invisibly by calling both things by the same term, "feeling pain". By doing that you muddy the water, instead of trying to bring clarity and truth.

[Aylyn]

Actually, you are mudying the water here. I am saying that feeling has nothing to do with awareness, and I have pointed that out several times in the thread. You can feel something without being aware. Not being aware of pain does not mean it is not stressful for the organism, on the contrary. And that is all I have ever claimed or stated. You say plants cannot feel pain, and I say they can, because for me feeling pain means that your body is noticing a damage and preparing a reaction to it. That is usually way below your conscious mind and works perfectly well without it, but your body is still stressed by it, even if you are completely out. If you call that automated: Yes it is, but there is a receptor that is feeling the pain even if your brain does not know it yet.

And the same can be said for plants: They feel when they are getting damaged, react to it, and get stressed out by it, all that is measurable. I am not making any kind of judgement about awareness, that is your doing, because for you feeling and awareness are synonyms. I am simple stating that just because something might not be aware does not mean it cannot feel pain, and just because an organism does not follow your rules of structure, i.e. having no visible nervous system, does not mean it does not have a way of interacting with the outside world, sending and receiving messages from it. Pain is among those messages received from the outside world. And in the absence of a proof that there is awareness or not, because neither of us can show whether plants are aware or not, my opinion is as valid as yours.

Agree to disagree, and instead of trying to convince me of your reality which has as little factual basis as mine, go for further research until we know.

[Explorer]

because neither of us can show whether plants are aware or not, my opinion is as valid as yours..... your reality which has as little factual basis as mine.....

dream on...

I have an idea, why don't you post this theory in Skeptical Druid? I can't wait to see the reactions .

[Dendrias]

Hic Rhodus, hic salta, Nico.

You call an automated response to external stimuli: 'feeling pain'.

You call an interpretation of the reality, done by Your brain, "feeling pain". That is, every perception of reality is interpreted by the brain(?), at least I suppose that it is the brain.People say so. When colourless rays of the visible spectrum of light hit your eye, a signal is transmitted to the brain ... and are interpreted as "colour". Changes in air-pressure hit the ear, a signal is transferred and interpreted as sound. But reality is colourless and soundless. When your skin gets too hot, a signal is transferred and might be interpreted as colour, sound ... or pain. A bruise on the middle finger might be interpreted ... as nothing at all. It's all about "feeling", i.e. interpretation, not about "pain", is it?
If you can't tell me what it is like to be a bat, what do you know about how it is to be any plant? Do you really need a brain to "feel" something? It might be an anthropocentric point of view. What about earthworms? Do they have a brain and feel pain by it?

[Explorer]

Hic Rhodus, hic salta, Nico.

Again, if could you post these theories about trees having feelings in Skeptical Druid, then I will respond there, not here.

[Dendrias]

Invitation! You can come to any aspect (brain, nervous system, perception).

[Kima]

So I agree not with your view that only animals can feel pain, and since I think plants feel just as much, I eat both animals and plants. [...] I think plants feel pain just as much as animals, and if am happy to eat a plant embryo, why not an animal embryo? It is that kind of thinking that makes me an unashamed carnivore, and makes me feel sad when I see trees mutilated. I feel for the animals, and I try to keep suffering to a minimum, and I do the same for plants. If that is not to your liking, fine, but do not belittle these areguments, I do not belittle yours.

I hold a very similar view to yours. Other organisms may work in very different ways, but the fact that we have little knowledge about what those processes entail does not mean that they can be reduced to matter incapable without sentience.

[Kima]

Again, if could you post these theories about trees having feelings in Skeptical Druid, then I will respond there, not here.

Nico, you seem to relish the idea of seeing your "opponent(s)" dumbfounded. I can't see where this discussion is going if there is no effort to try and understand the other party's point of view.

Also, isn't there a bit of a gender divide going on in this thread?

[DJ Droood]

Also, isn't there a bit of a gender divide going on in this thread?

How about if I switch sides to even things out?

Nico, you are wrong. Trees and geraniums feel pain too, only they don't call it pain...we don't know what they call it, but I'm sure it hurts. If you can't imagine what geranium pain is like, imagine the smell of magenta, or perhaps the sound of sunlight. If you can't, I feel sorry for your limitations.

There, hope I was of some help, ladies.

[Lily]

I'll help evening out the divide... plants have mechanisms of defense and repair but not of evasion. They have no nervous system. I think "Pain" is not a category applicable to plants.

[lavouivre]

Also, isn't there a bit of a gender divide going on in this thread?

How about if I switch sides to even things out?

Nico, you are wrong. Trees and geraniums feel pain too, only they don't call it pain...we don't know what they call it, but I'm sure it hurts. If you can't imagine what geranium pain is like, imagine the smell of magenta, or perhaps the sound of sunlight. If you can't, I feel sorry for your limitations.

There, hope I was of some help, ladies.

Ho that was good!

I just saw a documentary but not sure what to think of it. Aylyn, I tried to watch the Private Life of Plants by BBC but couldn't find it on Netflix. So I watched instead "the Secret Life of plants" from the 70's. Very similar title, but hum...let's say very hippie (lots of songs, lots of images of buds growing into plants, lots of bearded long haired people gardening and explaining why they like it). All in all, there was maybe 10 mns worth watching of true scientific experiments.
These 10 mns were really interesting, but there is no follow-up, so not sure what is true and really scientific. If it is true, then plants are truly amazing and have a memory and empathy with our feelings. But seeing what the whole documentarly was worth, I will still wait to watch the more recent BBC one, which I might have to buy on Amazon...

[grayjk]

I can understand your anger, I would have felt the same way I guess. Although mine would be less directed at the cross - I consider people who feel the need to nail crosses to trees similar to you: Vandals who have no real sense of dignity and need to mark their territories like pissing dogs.

I disagree on one point: I don't have a problem with pissing dogs. If dogs felt the urge to tear the fire hydrants to pieces, then I'd have a problem. Thats what this is really about. Dogs have a generally agreed upon system by which they mark their territory. Humans have an agreed upon policy where we don't claim things that aren't ours as ours, and don't nail our opinions to other people's trees. Dogs do no long term damage to the things they pee on (cat pee can ruin gardens, but only a lot of it) while militant evangelists feel the need to burn whatever they touch.

I hope I don't offend anyone, I have many Christian friends, and the reason our friendship works is because they don't feel the need to petition me with their beliefs at every turn. We have meaningful conversations about it, but I have yet to have them spraypaint a cross on my car, which i feel is a similar situation. My anger here is more directed towards those who read "Fill the earth and subdue it" as "Hey, you. Just you. I want you to own everything." instead of seeing it as a general wish of success for mankind and life in general.

It reminds me of a simple quote from Fern Gully: "Can't you feel its pain?"

[penyou]

Hi There

Felt compelled to post here. I'm Welsh now married to a Canadian, am currently taking the bardic course.

I totally agree with all the comments about the cross, however might i also point out that people use chainsaws for many reasons, as in forestry management etc. These are trained people who have a very healthy respect for nature and the land, it isnt always about disrespect. It could be more to do with regrowth in an over crowded forest etc.