What is the Western tradition of the 'Sacred Warrior'?

[=West=]

Recently watched the EXCELLENT documentary "Reclaiming the Blade" about how sword fighting was a Western/European form of martial arts that has been mostly lost. Then I started reading a book on the Shambhala tradition (Chogyam Trungpa) which outlines an approach to living a life of the sacred warrior.

It got me to thinking - what are the equivalents in the Western traditions? Surely we could look to the Arthurian myths for tales of Chivalry and such, but I'm thinking there must be some mythologies that go back even further from which we could draw parallels...

Any input is welcome!

[Huathe]

Check out the teachings of Myamoto Musashi in the Books of the Five Rings. Though this is the Eastern/Asian style Samurai form of Martial Arts you may find it interesting. James Lanning, a workmate and friend of mine told me of Musashi's feats a number of years ago. Musashi was amazing!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_Five_Rings

[Oneonine]

http://www.cateransociety.com/

The head of this society wrote a book exploring the sacred warrior concept in celtic myth and legend. He delved into Arthurian source material, as well as analysing the druid warrior's magical martial "feats" from the irish texts, and the Warrior schools such as Scathach's, on Skye.

[Kullervo]

It got me to thinking - what are the equivalents in the Western traditions? Surely we could look to the Arthurian myths for tales of Chivalry and such, but I'm thinking there must be some mythologies that go back even further from which we could draw parallels...

Must there? How far back to Eastern "sacred warrior" traditions go back?

My intuition is that in ancient societies, a distinction between a "sacred warrior" and a garden variety warrior might not have even made any sense. There may have been warrior societies, but I'm not sure that is necessarily the same thing.

My undersanding of paganism is that, on a fundamental level, it sacralizes all of the human experience, not just bits and pieces of it. The sacred/profane distinction is more flexible and porous, and as such all warriors are sacred to Ares, Athena, or whatever war gods you prefer.

[Dendrias]

My undersanding of paganism is that, on a fundamental level, it sacralizes all of the human experience, not just bits and pieces of it. The sacred/profane distinction is more flexible and porous, and as such all warriors are sacred to Ares, Athena, or whatever war gods you prefer.

As far as I understood, ancient paganism made a very strict distinction between sacred and profane. Reading through Latin and Greek texts shows that there are two distinct "worlds". Sacred thing weren't allowed to be touched and had a kind of contagious effect on things attached to them. See Oedipus Coloneus for example, where Oedipus sits down in an holy grove ... and by this causes the inhabitants of Athens to be very very horrified.

What's a "sacred warrior", btw?

[treegod]

There were various knight Orders, like the Templars, that combined the military disipline of their day with monastic vows of chastity, poverty etc.

[mantis]

What are the qualifications for a sacred warrior? A warrior monk?

[=West=]

Sorry - I should have clarified my meaning of 'sacred warrior'. There are a few aspects to it that I'd like to point out:

* Honor
* Courage
* Loyalty
* Discipline
* Vulnerability
* Compassion/Kindness

As was previously noted, the concept of the Samurai is a good analogy. While the ideal of the sacred warrior is one that invariably springs initially from a feudal or monarchy system (and thereby relates to war), the modern concept of the sacred warrior is more altruistic in that we no longer swear fealty to a king or a military system. Nonetheless, the characteristics of the sacred warrior are still very much needed in our time. In the Shambhala tradition (I'm just reading this, so forgive me for the topical review) the idea is that we can work, as individuals, toward creating Shambala here on earth (Shambhala = Shangri La) - a place where human beings live up to their full potential in all aspects of self-knowledge, courage, gentleness - for the sake of ALL beings. It does not necessarily have to be wedded to any religious or spiritual tradition, however. In fact the Shambhala tradition is secular, specifically tailored to suit modern individuals without carrying any particular dogma with it.

So I guess what I'm looking for is some text or such that looks at what the warriors were like in our own tradition, but extrapolating beyond the strict militaristic viewpoint. Arthur/Chivalry is a good place to start, but I suspect there are similar stories and concepts we can pull from the texts that predate Arthurian legend.

Does that help?

[=West=]

http://www.cateransociety.com/

The head of this society wrote a book exploring the sacred warrior concept in celtic myth and legend. He delved into Arthurian source material, as well as analysing the druid warrior's magical martial "feats" from the irish texts, and the Warrior schools such as Scathach's, on Skye.

Do you have a link or the title/author of the book? I see a few links on that site, but I'm not clear to which one you're referring.

[Dendrias]

What's the warrior-aspect in these?

BTW: Check "Thomas D" with his songs "Krieger" (warrior) or "Mein Schwert" (my sword) on youtube for example. I very much like it. He might have read Your book.

[Eilthireach]

Hello all,

I have recently thought about this...

The reason why this topic came up was that I discovered that a Knight Templars monastery exists in Munich, Germany, where I live. There are 13 monks (Jesus and his 12 disciples) and they do live after the original rule of the order by St Bernard of Clairvaux from the year 1128. The monks work in regular jobs and return to their monastery after work. They also do some charity work.

Note that for these monks work takes the place of war. Many people today claim that they experience their workplace like a battlefield, and if you listen to business reports you often notice that they are written in the same terminology as one would describe a war or hostilities. But I digress.

What makes a warrior and a monk? i think it is discpline. The warrior displays discipline when he goes into battle. It has been said that Celtic and Germanic warriors worked themselves into a kind of frenzy and then simply charged into their enemies, but I think they also needed some form of discipline, to build a shield wall, to row a ship, to form a charging formation on horse back etc. This is outer discipline.

The monk is a symbol for inner discipline, for inner work, for meditation, prayer, acts of devotion, study and spirituality.

The warrior monk, or the sacred warrior, would unite outer and inner discipline. He would lead a spiritual life with study and practice, and in the outer world would appear as disciplined person who helps and defends the poor, stands up against injustice and generally tries to live in honour.

And what about enemies? Doesn't a warrior need enemies?

If one man conquer in battle a thousand times thousand men, and if another conquer himself, he is the greatest of conquerors.
(The Dhammapada VIII 103)

I wish you a blessed season of Samhain,

Eilthireach.

[Kullervo]

Sorry - I should have clarified my meaning of 'sacred warrior'. There are a few aspects to it that I'd like to point out:

* Honor
* Courage
* Loyalty
* Discipline
* Vulnerability
* Compassion/Kindness

As was previously noted, the concept of the Samurai is a good analogy. While the ideal of the sacred warrior is one that invariably springs initially from a feudal or monarchy system (and thereby relates to war), the modern concept of the sacred warrior is more altruistic in that we no longer swear fealty to a king or a military system. Nonetheless, the characteristics of the sacred warrior are still very much needed in our time. In the Shambhala tradition (I'm just reading this, so forgive me for the topical review) the idea is that we can work, as individuals, toward creating Shambala here on earth (Shambhala = Shangri La) - a place where human beings live up to their full potential in all aspects of self-knowledge, courage, gentleness - for the sake of ALL beings. It does not necessarily have to be wedded to any religious or spiritual tradition, however. In fact the Shambhala tradition is secular, specifically tailored to suit modern individuals without carrying any particular dogma with it.

So I guess what I'm looking for is some text or such that looks at what the warriors were like in our own tradition, but extrapolating beyond the strict militaristic viewpoint. Arthur/Chivalry is a good place to start, but I suspect there are similar stories and concepts we can pull from the texts that predate Arthurian legend.

Does that help?

A modern soldier in the U. S. military enlists with an oath:

"I, do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

And soldiers in the Army are committed to living up to the Army values: Loyalty, Duty, Respect, Selfless Service, Honor, Integrity, and Personal Courage.

And you can see discipline among soldiers like you'll see in few other places.

How is that any different?

[=West=]

How is that any different?

I think there can be some similarities, indeed. However, I don't believe that the US Government or US Military have the Highest Good - the spiritual and literal liberation of all beings - as their central focus. Indeed, for the US Military to exist, there must needs be an enemy - an 'other'. This, in and of itself, is exclusive of some certain segment of creation. And to be frank, the US Military doesn't have a flawless track record in terms of successfully executing its charge of Selfless Service (see: Iraq war, driven primarily by US Oil Interests), respect (see: alienation of gays, people of alternate faiths, etc.). I think that, in general, it is safe to say that the majority of those on the Druid path probably look at the industrialization of killing for the sake of protecting financial interests as somewhat less of a noble ideal than the original concepts of chivalry. This isn't to say that the only thing the US military does is protect financial interests, but there is certainly much more of a 'grey area' these days I'd say...

I'd suggest a cursory read of the book to gain a better understanding of the concept - you'll see that what Trungpa is talking about is very different than a Warrior-system that is tied to military and governance. It is much more a personal and spiritual system of warriorship, driven first and formost by vulnerability, compassion, etc.

But even so, it does raise a really interesting question about what kinds of honor (without nationalistic overtones) we can glean from the military systems of today, and how we can help to restore some of the ancient ideals and traditions of integrity, compassion, etc. to said systems.

[mantis]

right across europe there are many warrior cultures and many have connections with spirituality.As sacred warriors the crusaders were attempting to be sacred warriors.Unfortunatly the ethics mixed with a battlefield did'nt always continue.You can train etc with all the already stated values but once faced with a kill or be killed situation,ethics can and will disappear for a while.
All these ideals from Arthur to Bushido with very high values are all very well in peace times,but in conflict whether 1 on 1 or vast armies don't always unfold.
I know from experience!
Sorry I don't mean to sound negative.Having also studied many fighting systems plus being a wiccan priest,I have a practical viewpoint.

[MiriamSPia]

All of the standard military forces and their Underworld counterparts have at least some access to the sacred warrior. Mainly it is an attitude. There are many who would claim that the best warrior is the one that wins without ever even fighting. Others feel that this is a pacifist's delusion that needs to be counterbalanced by living in the reality of a world in which violence and warfare may actually be a necessity at times although hopefully it usually is not.

Warriors are odd in that they tend to combine discipline with properly socialized use of force to a degree or with a frequency which is abnormal for the majority of the population.

Seeing this role as one which is sacred and that is has its benefits and specific limitations might be helpful.

The Holy Scriptures, especially the Q'ran does clearly state that God believes that fighting and sacrificing the life for Him is the greatest that anyone could ever do for Him and the second best thing is to live a life devoted to Him. That's Islam and there may be an underlying presumptions that the Arabians are a hot blooded passionate people and that's why this has been included in "the rules for living".

[inis]

A modern soldier in the U. S. military enlists with an oath:

"I, do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

And soldiers in the Army are committed to living up to the Army values: Loyalty, Duty, Respect, Selfless Service, Honor, Integrity, and Personal Courage.

And you can see discipline among soldiers like you'll see in few other places.

How is that any different?

Sorry, I'm not really into this, but I have just one question:
what about Abu Ghraib?

...there have obviously been some people, who had sworn this oath, but didn't connect it in any way with respect, honor or anything good...

There is a quotation by the german anti-Fascist writer and journalist Kurt Tucholsky (1890-1935): "Soldiers are murderers".
That means that it is the job of any soldier - in principle spoken - to kill other people...

I'd be glad if there was a way to separate the concept of (modern-day) soldiers from that of a (sacred) warrior...

(no offense anybody, please!)

inis

[Eilthireach]

Hallo all,

a soldier is a profession, a very old profession and until there is some considerable development in humankind this profession will stay around.
It is true, not every soldier lives up to the ethical code of his or her profession. People do so everywhere.
Calling soldiers criminals (which is legal in Germany) does not help anybody, neither the soldier, nor the pacifist, nor the development of humankind in general.

A sacred warrior, in the contrary, is a spiritual concept. Spiritual concepts exist to help to make better and happier people, to help people understand their True Will and to come to a form of understanding of the Divine.

The original question of this thread was after the spiritual concept. Please try to stick with the topic.

Eilthireach.

[inis]

A sacred warrior, in the contrary, is a spiritual concept. Spiritual concepts exist to help to make better and happier people, to help people understand their True Will and to come to a form of understanding of the Divine.

The original question of this thread was after the spiritual concept. Please try to stick with the topic.

That was why I proposed to separate the term "soldier" from the "sacred warrior"... I think one problem is that we are easily misled by the word "warrior" to think about fighting only in a physical sense.

But you can also fight with words, for example - and the term "warrior" then includes: continueing the fight until the bitter end, no matter what it costs you (if it is the RIGHT thing, because only then we are talking about a sacred cause).

One person I personally think of when I hear the term "sacred warrior" is Mahatma Gandhi (though he's not fully in the western tradition, I admit). He never used violence himself and tried to abandon it as soon as possible from his sacred fight, the fight for freedom for his people. Instead he used other weapons, like financial and economical pressure, ethics, speeches, publicity and his own example. He didn't try to stay out of hardship, but shared it with his people. In the end, when he was afraid that he couldn't convince his people of the right (that was non-violent) way to go, he used his last "weapon" by sacrificing his life - he wanted to show them how much he was convinced of the necessity to stay away from violence, he was being "deadly earnest" - and fastet himself to death.
That, in my eyes, is real courage, and real honour (sticking to your beliefs to the very end), and that's why people called him "Mahatma" (meaning "Great Soul", his original first names were Mohandas Karamchand).

[mantis]

I agree that a soldier and a sacred warrior are very different.I'll give some examples of sacred warriors.Admittdly they have passed over ,but in more recent times.The founder of Aikido O Sensei Morehei Ueshiba,the head of the Goju Kai Kancho Gogen (the cat) Yamaguchi and Grandmaster Ip Shui of Southern Chow Gar Praying Mantis.All of these were tremendous fighters,but transended that and were highly spiritual men.In some ways finding true peace and enlightenment.They have set an example for many to aspire too.
These were more modern sacred warriors.
We have many present day " sacred warriors" but they probably would'nt see themselves as such.
Western sacred warriors disappeared very fast with gunpowder and changes in warfare.The orient and asia understood and cherished the past better than we do in the west.

[Eilthireach]

Hello all,

Suzuki Roshi comes to my mind, warriorship as mental discipline.

Yes, the spiritual warrior of the West seems to have died out together with knighthood and chivalry. Nevertheless I believe that there was such a concept in the West, probably developed on the common ground of Celtic and/or Germanic culture. The "magical weapons" of Western Ceremonial Magic were obviously developed on the basis of the "four treasures" of the Tuatha De Danann.

As Druids we stand (hopefully) close to Celtic culture and I could imagine that somebody could develop a concept for Celtic spiritual warriorship inside the framework of Druidry, with a solid grounding in Celtic mythology and an emphasis on inner and outer discipline as outlined in my earlier posting. I think I would very much like to see this!

Samhain blessings,

Eilthireach.