The Druids' Republic

[Myrde]

*cackles as he rubs his hands together eagerly, a mad gleam in his eyes* I cannot believe I didn't think of this before! It's shere genius! How could I be so slow in coming up with this idea! And this is the perfect place to do it in!!!!

*coughs lightly* Sorry, perfectly sane now. Just got super excited. Ahem. By, any chance, has anyone here ever read Plato's Republic ? In the tale starring Socrates, he speaks with Plato's brother, Glaucon, and as a mental exercise, they devise the "perfect" city; a utopia if you will. Now, this is all philosophical thinking and wishful thinking, but do come up with a marvelous city.

Buuuuuuuut..... since we have so many Druids, philosiphers and Path seekers here, I thought, why not try the same mental exercise with my teachers here at OBOD!

Essentially, we'd plan out every detail; how it would be set up, what sort of government how would the community operate/survive, what would be taught, ect. However, I advise we start off small. Say, just for starting, we try to deicde of think out where would be the best place to build such a community/city/village/ect. Then, people critique, alter, add on, change things about what the person before them. The whole thing is to look at this from every logical view points and giving logical reasons why it would be beneficial or needed. So yeah, essentially the point is to start off on a small single point, and then branch out.

This would be so much easier if people read The Republic...

Dear Lord, I'm doing a horrible job of explaining this. I probably just ballsed it up by opening my mouth. Erm... who wants to start? Remember, start off very small!

Lord and Lady... I AM useless...

[Hennie]

Hey, I don't like it very much, people naming themselves 'useless' , for what is the use of anything and should people be 'useful' ? 'Peaceful', ' joyful' are qualities that come to my mind as much more desirable (most of the time, that is) than 'useful' and I guess there are a lot of other qualities that are more important than one's 'usefulness'.
A commodity can be judged by its 'usefulness', a person should never be because we (the human race) are not capable to know all the things that the world and life desires, so we' d better stick to the declaration of the rights of man; everyone has rights, just because he is a living human being, not because of his usefulness.

[treegod]

Agree with Hennie about the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, at least in principal, perhaps not totally to the letter (of the Declaration). Just being human we have rights, not whether we are useful or not.

I'll have a think about what a Druid's Republic might be like.

The thought that immediately crosses my mind is the relationship of ancient Druids to sovereignty and how and why they chose the sovereign. Puts me in mind of the relationship between Head of State and Head of Government in a constitutional monarchy, where the Druids would act as the former and the sovereign they choose (whether for the tribe's best interest or their own) would be more like the latter (except, I guess, in modern times the former has far less power and influence than the Druids).

How would that symbolically be translated into a more republican model? I like the idea that there is a group of people acting as "guardians of sovereignty" bestowing and retracting sovereignty as they see fit, although, obviously skeptical of the motives behind it.

[DaRC]

Yep I've read 'The Republic' a long time ago, but then age and experience caught up with me.
I'll take your Plato and raise you an Aldous Huxley, George Orwell & Fergus Kelly's translation of the "Audacht Morainn".

Ancient Druid knowledge would suggest they would not be in favour of a Republic, the kingdom needs a king to marry the land. Norse mythology is very clear on this in the RigsThula or "Lay of Rig"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%ADgs%C3%BEula

The sad truth is that there is one problem with Utopia's = human nature!
The quote "Power corrupts, Absolute power corrupts Absolutely" is very true.

Just look what happens to the Romans during the Republic and in a true democracry (as in the case of Athens) with Pericles. The same happens in Iceland before Norwegian King takes over.

There are some interesting novels here - some of which I've read and most of which I've not
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utopia
Interestingly Iain M Banks Sci-Fi Culture Novels aren't considered although, in many ways, they're quite Utopian.

[DJ Droood]

Ancient Druid knowledge would suggest they would not be in favour of a Republic, the kingdom needs a king to marry the land.

I would agree with that...never ran across anything that would suggest Druids were "for the people" or anything other than part of the ruling elite. I think Ancient druids would have all moved socialist hippie druids placed in a wicker man...so no republics for you!

I think if things were run by modern druids, it would be much like it is now, but with a slightly more left social democratic government.

[Hennie]

Now there is a point. Would capitalism, in the sense of 'let your money bring you more money' still be governing the world or would druids demand a 'real' accomplishment for a payment? (Of course there must be pension for the disabled and the elderly).

[DJ Droood]

Just a question regarding your thread....are we speculating how "old school" druids, if they were to set up their perfect society, would structure things? I would suggest it would be exactly as they did structure things (with them at the top of a pyramid.)

Are you wondering how modern druids would do it? Probably a complex question....considering the divergent druid views....I would like to think Green Anarchism, with the key point being that the earth we share can't be owned and damage to our environment would be a crime against all....(I am hoping the idea of a wicker man survives, stuffed with, in my version, capitalists, politicians, priests and generals, with the hoi polloi dancing around and drinking huge quantaties of mead, 4x a year, until we run out of fuel.)

[Myrde]

Well.... here's how this conversation shoulda gone...
----------------->

Here's how its going
-_-___---___-_--___-_->

The title "Druids' Republic" was merely a play on words because the mental exercise was found in "Plato's Republic". In no way shape or form does this conversation have anything to do with a republic.The title was just a joke. Laugh, damh you! We're not speculating how the Old School Druids would've done things, but how WE would do things.

So again.... stay on topic people. The point is to build a Utopia brick by brick in this convo, just like Socrates did with Gluacon.

Djdrood, THANKYOU for being the first one to set us straight

Alright, so far, we have with have for our utopia:

-Traditional Wickerman stuff with capitalists, politicians, priests and generals, with the hoi polloi dancing around and drinking huge quantaties of mead, 4x a year, until we run out of fuel.

And I challenge that proposal! One, I am opposed to violence unless it is in self-defense and the protection of others. Besides, are you suggesting that our society (with no contact withthe outside world) would be producing capitalists, politicians, priests and generals at an alarming rate that we could supply said Wickerman? Besides, mass murder (or pest control, in my opinion) wasn't the purpose of the Wickerman. When considering the act of ritual sacrifice we must try to understand that the Celtic tribes lived and died by their crops. If the crops failed, then a hard winter of starvation and disease was inevitable. A whole village could be wiped out through lack of food; therefore, when such a catastrophe occurred, the ancients felt they had to offer a gift to their Gods. The true nature of sacrifice was to give somebody who came willingly. To offer themselves as such placed them with their Gods and the Tribe revered them as heroes.

To view ancient civilizations from the standpoint of modern ethics is a mistake. We have supermarkets and world trade, which keeps us supplied with wonderful food throughout the year. Now imagine growing all of the food you eat yourself, without the use of pesticides to protect the crop from blight and insect diseases. Then imagine your crop fails and you face a winter of unimaginable pain and suffering. Now imagine it happened for a second year....

Therefor...

-Traditional Wickerman should be kept, used for ritualistic purposes only, with everyone drinking huge quantaties of mead, 4x a year.

And now a new one!

-Society will be built near the shoreline, but still connected to the mainland.

Anyone want to challenge, rewrite, add on to those? Im not claiming this is my opinions, but somebody should be arguing them or tweaking them XD Or is that our Utopia right there?

[DJ Droood]

Traditional Wickerman stuff with capitalists, politicians, priests and generals, with the hoi polloi dancing around and drinking huge quantaties of mead, 4x a year, until we run out of fuel.

And I challenge that proposal! One, I am opposed to violence unless it is in self-defense and the protection of others.

We would be defending the tribe and land by ensuring the capitalists, politicians, priests and generals would trouble us no more. It would meerly be a first step...sort of like clearing the weeds before planting could begin.

Besides, are you suggesting that our society (with no contact withthe outside world) would be producing capitalists, politicians, priests and generals at an alarming rate that we could supply said Wickerman?

ahhh...see...perhaps I missed that part of the exercise...not contact, start from scratch, like new borns or castaways? I was still thinking more of an "End Times" scenerio.

:blink: Besides, mass murder (or pest control, in my opinion) wasn't the purpose of the Wickerman.

Perhaps not in the old days....

When considering the act of ritual sacrifice we must try to understand that the Celtic tribes lived and died by their crops. If the crops failed, then a hard winter of starvation and disease was inevitable. A whole village could be wiped out through lack of food; therefore, when such a catastrophe occurred, the ancients felt they had to offer a gift to their Gods. The true nature of sacrifice was to give somebody who came willingly. To offer themselves as such placed them with their Gods and the Tribe revered them as heroes.

You see...we are back to the old druids...I'm afraid that anyone who mentions "god or gods"...or "celtic", for that matter....in the New Druid Republic (NDR) will be subject to the repurposed wickerman.

To view ancient civilizations from the standpoint of modern ethics is a mistake.

agreed

-Traditional Wickerman should be kept, used for ritualistic purposes only, with everyone drinking huge quantaties of mead, 4x a year.

We could make a "ritual" out of it, if you wanted.

-Society will be built near the shoreline, but still connected to the mainland.

I like this idea...peninsulas are our friend.

[Myrde]

DJ, I think we're gonna end up being really good friends at this rate.

You see...we are back to the old druids...I'm afraid that anyone who mentions "god or gods"...or "celtic", for that matter....in the New Druid Republic (NDR) will be subject to the repurposed wickerman.

Though, you'll have to explain that one. O_O; When I said used for ritualistic purposes, I meant just burning the Wickerman WITHOUT anything inside. More symbolism than anything else. ^_^; No burning innocent people.

Meh, not exactly a peninsula. Just along the coast. Plenty of room to farm and expand if we need too.

Really? Nobody is gonna argue this, offer insight, or point out flaws? Or even toss in their own ideas? I was hoping for... something. =w=

Ah well. Useless threads end up dying pretty quickly anyway.

[DJ Droood]

DJ, I think we're gonna end up being really good friends at this rate.

You see...we are back to the old druids...I'm afraid that anyone who mentions "god or gods"...or "celtic", for that matter....in the New Druid Republic (NDR) will be subject to the repurposed wickerman.

Though, you'll have to explain that one. O_O;

I guess what I'm getting at here is that war and violence are an expression of religion and nationalism, so if we were constructing a perfect society, we would not want to introduce those ideas...but as you have pointed out, we are doing a "fresh start", so perhaps the wicker man can be dispensed with.

I like your idea of farming-based community, but what about a nomadic hunter/gatherer base?

[Bart]

I would guess a community based on working the land was more focussed on community, while hunter gatherers are physically more prone to violence.

I vote for farmers near a broad river and fertile grounds. Maybe some mountains in the back.

What;s next?

[DJ Droood]

I vote for farmers near a broad river and fertile grounds. Maybe some mountains in the back.

What;s next?

ok..so a nice druid farming community...bit of fishing and hunting...what type of government, if any, would be needed to keep things running smoothly? Direct "show of hands" democracy on all community issues? Elect some sort of leader/spokesperson?

[Bart]

Maybe the democracy as it was originally described by the Greeks: You elect a group of despots, who may do as they please. But after a term they will be replaced, so any misschief will boomerang back.

[DJ Droood]

Maybe the democracy as it was originally described by the Greeks: You elect a group of despots, who may do as they please. But after a term they will be replaced, so any misschief will boomerang back.

sounds too much like our current democracy, except the boomerang part....I think the world has seen enough of despots who do as they please...perhaps our druid utopia could do better.

[wolf560]

If a "Druid's Republic" were to be set up I'd like to think it would be set up as a 'Republic of Druids' and for that to happen it would either be something that attracted more Druids to it or capitalized on something Druids were good at.

If we go with the Ancient Druids then we could choose from a variety of skills and expertise to draw upon ranging from simple Herb Lore to outright Surgery, from simple Lawyers to being Law-Givers themselves, simple Astrologers to expert Astronomers.

Please excuse the use of the word "Simple"... I use it as an expression that it is a smaller side of a greater subject rather it being less than honorable.

If we go with Modern Druids then we could choose from a far more limited selection of things that we Modern Druids are experts at in the context of "Druid only topics".

One thing however I do see as both a way of bringing Druids together (perhaps Pagans, Heathens, Wiccans, and Witches as well); Education.


I would see a "Druid Republic" in modern terms to be a Republic of Teachers and Educators and an Academia that supports it with research, study, and the recording of what is known, what is suspected, and what is in the process of being proved or disproved.

This avoids the (hopefully) inevitable capitalism and power-mongering.

But I also feel that any group of more than three people will ALWAYS result in one person feeling that they should have more control and a few others feeling that someone else equally undeserving has too much control.

Two Druids equals a discussion
Three (or more) Druids will inevitably result in an argument (LOL)

[Bart]

This also been tried in ancient Greece, but they always failed to mention the fact that they had a considerable amount of slaves working on their fields.
Our Utopia needs people who can work with their hands. They can be educated, but I propose to educate them in the laws of nature. Only Druids with their heads in the clouds will give a top-heavy community. Look at any coorporate business with to many educater/managers, they all go belly up.

I do propose to have equal rights for all and all genders (male, female, genderbenders, shapeshifters, flufbunnies et al.)

But we were voting on the ruling style. I oppose kingdoms. I have been a republican (european version, I do not want his head, but as far as I'm concerned he should have his allowance stopped) since I can remember.
Do we want communinism, socialism, capitalism? Which country comes closest to your ideal? Scandinavia wuth high taxes but with high social security/ Greece with no laws or economy, but with good food/ ouzo/ nice weather and the rest of Europe to bail them out?

[DJ Droood]

I do propose to have equal rights for all and all genders (male, female, genderbenders, shapeshifters, flufbunnies et al.)

Perhaps "natural law" should be the basis of a druid civilization.

Natural law or the law of nature (Latin: lex naturalis) has been described as a law whose content is set by nature and is thus universal.[1] As classically used, natural law refers to the use of reason to analyze human nature and deduce binding rules of moral behavior. The phrase natural law is opposed to the positive law (meaning "man-made law", not "good law"; cf. posit) of a given political community, society, or nation-state, and thus can function as a standard by which to criticize that law.[2] In natural law jurisprudence, on the other hand, the content of positive law cannot be known without some reference to the natural law (or something like it). Used in this way, natural law can be invoked to criticize decisions about the statutes, but less so to criticize the law itself. Some use natural law synonymously with natural justice or natural right (Latin ius naturale)[citation needed]

Nature itself would decide who had the skills to prosper and who would need assistance from the community. We are all "equal" in the face of natural law.

Do we want communinism, socialism, capitalism?

Capitalism is simply exploitation of someone else, so that can't happen without causing strife. Free and open markets, however, would be important. I think both socialism and communism would start to impose a more top-heavy bureaucracy than needed. Although I would consider myself a socialist now, perhaps the "isms" won't be needed if the community/municipality remains the highest political unit.

Which country comes closest to your ideal? Scandinavia wuth high taxes but with high social security/ Greece with no laws or economy, but with good food/ ouzo/ nice weather and the rest of Europe to bail them out?

Cuba...they have had to live without consumerism for the last 50 years...reduce/reuse/recycle/make it yourself is a way of life...their governmental structure is quite democratic and grass roots...it will be better when "El Jefe" (Fidel)and his heirs and successors are gone, however.

Cuba puts a lot of the redistributed wealth from tourism into education and health care.

(there is your opportunity to disagree with me on a silver platter, wolf)

[wolf560]

Which country comes closest to your ideal?

Cuba...they have had to live without consumerism for the last 50 years...
Cuba puts a lot of the redistributed wealth from tourism into education and health care.
(there is your opportunity to disagree with me on a silver platter, wolf)

I don't disagree... I do not believe that an entire nation is anything more than a HUGE pile of dirt and grass topped with a society of people that will never agree on anything. (LOL)

Personally, I am not convinced that a 'Governmental system' would have to exist at first at all... quite to the contrary, I feel that if we Druids got together that each person would be able to contribute in some way. Probably the first thing to do would be to determine how we will determine the outcome of our differences. Working out a system of "compensation" where so many bushels of wheat is worth exactly how many Tarot readings or classes on Geography to room of teenagers.

Cuba has had to deal with a lot, and I am fairly neutral on the subject actually.
After El Jefe is gone, it probably will get better and for my own part I'd like to visit there.

[Myrde]

Nu uh uh. Noway. Its not going down like this. I absolutely refuse to have a thread that I create and abandon restart itself without me being apart of it! *throws his chips back in and gets his poker face on*

I'd almost want to say, for our government, the Philosipher King style that Plato uses, however, for a single individual to be in power is only asking for trouble. I'd almost say a tribunal or council composing of different representatives for their take or view on the matter.

Right, so say we decide to go for a farming base communiy, and our utopia is debating on what would be most beneficial to the community during the winter months; in this purely hypothetical scenario, let's say logging vs. fishing. We'd get thirteen of whom we'd believe would be hte most experienced and knowledgeable of our community on such a matter, and they give us their views and opinions ONLY. We'd try to set it up so that nobody would have an axe to grind, since we are discussing the wellbeing of the entire tribe. But then the community votes on which course of action would be taken.