Climategate

[Kernos]

"The Earth is just too small and fragile a basket for the human race to keep all its eggs in." — Robert Heinlein

[Merlyn]

Very true words.
The grandiose world wide governments display of cluster&feck that we saw is truthfully discrediting science, ignoring pollution and putting off the real and most critical problems, and even making grabs at our wallets! Lame and serious scare tactic movies by those who absolutely do not walk the walk and know nothing and are just political grand standing, all while very needed ecology programs are cut off, critical education of evolving cultures is completely ignored, help in the most basic levels is starved of needed money and rather spent on imaginary wars and stupid religious wars and oil grabbing!
Our job is to cherish mother earth.
There is an urgent need for "political climate change" and Obama, and so many others, isn't it... yet.
But after a cycle of troubles always come hope; and the greatest opportunity.
http://money.cnn.com/2010/01/08/news/ec ... /index.htm
"Be the change you want to see"
(Some wise druid said that)

Merlyn

[Merlyn]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8449722.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8447447.stm
It is not just out my window now is it... From the US to Germany, Spain, Briton, France, Sweden, Norway, seeing the worst winter in three decades.
All this while the fudged data trying to predict global warming has done a serious disservice to the entire world.

Global warming denialists are no longer the problem.

Really?
http://ieet.org/index.php/IEET/more/dvorsky20100110/
Truth is the "climate change conference" was all about "global warming". It totally ignored the real truth about climate change.
Here is a totally wrong prediction, that faces the truth of the coldest winter in 30 years and a record setting winter for many, colder than ever recorded.
http://climateprogress.org/2009/07/09/n ... on-record/

With the antagonists bashing each other and insisting the "other guy" is wrong, no one is putting the matter correctly enough in perspective to predict anything.
This all of course ignored that all the predictions of escalating hurricanes for 2009 never happened.
Who is the denier now?

IMO the scientists need to take the fudge and tricks out of the science of trying to predict the weather and admit they simply cannot. No computer model predicts volcanoes erupting, no graph makes hockey sticks worth ignoring the real problems in this entire debate, and that is resource.

How convenient to make the weather into something like a global warming threat. One which each of us must some how pay increased taxes for, and how special is it that the truth of this coming winter was just "fudged" out of the figures.... How more sinister can it be to tell the world we must trust governments to stop a hockey stick from causing the end of our world, water world, and then fail to do what this world needs. Interesting to see how the demonstrations raged outside of the copenhagen climate change summit while the politics broke down.

Now we all sit wondering why our local, state and national governments did not prepare for a record cold winter across the entire world.
Yup, it is definitely looking very cold out my window, and a few others now.

One thing I can trust is that politicians will offer scientists $$ to make the data serve their needs.
"The mean average" has just been set a tad lower and perhaps we had best realize our own safety is in our own hands.

Merlyn

[DJ Droood]

I think one thing this thread has illuminated is how married to our ideologies we are. Left, right or center (if you chose to use that paradigm), we seem to interpret the world around us through that filter first..science, spirituality, politics...everything needs to conform to our primary ideology, which must be closely linked to our psychological make-up, to be so ingrained and inviolable.

[Kernos]

Experts: Cold snap doesn't disprove global warming

By MALCOLM RITTER, AP Science Writer
Wed Jan 6, 11:50 pm ET

Beijing had its coldest morning in almost 40 years and its biggest snowfall since 1951. Britain is suffering through its longest cold snap since 1981. And freezing weather is gripping the Deep South, including Florida's orange groves and beaches.

Whatever happened to global warming?

Such weather doesn't seem to fit with warnings from scientists that the Earth is warming because of greenhouse gases. But experts say the cold snap doesn't disprove global warming at all — it's just a blip in the long-term heating trend.

"It's part of natural variability," said Gerald Meehl, a senior scientist at the National Center for Atmospheric Research in Boulder, Colo. With global warming, he said, "we'll still have record cold temperatures. We'll just have fewer of them."

Deke Arndt of the National Climatic Data Center in Asheville, N.C., noted that 2009 will rank among the 10 warmest years for Earth since 1880.

Scientists say man-made climate change does have the potential to cause more frequent and more severe weather extremes, such as heat waves, storms, floods, droughts and even cold spells. But experts interviewed by The Associated Press did not connect the current frigid blast to climate change.

So what is going on?

"We basically have seen just a big outbreak of Arctic air" over populated areas of the Northern Hemisphere, Arndt said. "The Arctic air has really turned itself loose on us."

In the atmosphere, large rivers of air travel roughly west to east around the globe between the Arctic and the tropics. This air flow acts like a fence to keep Arctic air confined.

But recently, this air flow has become bent into a pronounced zigzag pattern, meandering north and south. If you live in a place where it brings air up from the south, you get warm weather. In fact, record highs were reported this week in Washington state and Alaska.

But in the eastern United States, like some other unlucky parts of the globe, Arctic air is swooping down from the north. And that's how you get a temperature of 3 degrees in Beijing, a reading of minus-42 in mainland Norway, and 18 inches of snow in parts of Britain, where a member of Parliament who said the snow "clearly indicates a cooling trend" was jeered by colleagues.

The zigzag pattern arises naturally from time to time, but it is not clear why it's so strong right now, said Michelle L'Heureux, a meteorologist at the Climate Prediction Center of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. The center says the pattern should begin to weaken in a week or two.

Jeff Masters, director of meteorology for Weather Underground, a forecasting service, said he expects more typical winter weather across North America early next week.

That will be welcome news in the South, where farmers have been trying to salvage millions of dollars' worth of strawberries and other crops.

On Miami Beach, tourists bundled up in woolen winter coats and hooded sweatshirts Wednesday beneath a clear blue sky. Some brazenly let the water wash over their feet and a few even lay out in bikinis and swimming trunks. A brisk wind blew and temperatures hovered in the 50s.

"Last year we were swimming every day," said Olivia Ruedinger of Hamburg, Germany. "I miss that."

[illion]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8449722.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8447447.stm
It is not just out my window now is it... From the US to Germany, Spain, Briton, France, Sweden, Norway, seeing the worst winter in three decades.

I could't open these links, so I haven't read them, but I have a comment on Norway experiencing the worst winter in decades. I don't think this is necessarily so. I live in the south of Norway, and there are places here that have had cold temperature records, down to -41 C. Where I live, it's been cold for a long time, but no records are set, and in the north of Norway it's actually been alot warmer weather than it usually is at this time of year. They have had the climate that we in the south normally have (-10C ca) It is rather like the roles have been switched. Warm in the north, cold in the south. Right now it is -22 where I live in the south, in the middle of norway -9 and in the north +3 and rain.

I guess it all depends on how we read the statistics. One can emphasize on the unusal coldness in certain areas if that is what one wants, or one can give more attention to the unusual mild temperatures at the moment where these happen to occur.

Illion

[mwyalchen]

I guess it all depends on how we read the statistics. One can emphasize on the unusal coldness in certain areas if that is what one wants, or one can give more attention to the unusual mild temperatures at the moment where these happen to occur.

Illion

Or, indeed, one can look at global averages, and at medium-to-long-term trends.

[Merlyn]

Or we can figure that the earth is going through a cycle or series of them, ready to start all over again in 2012
Humans really do need to stop imaginary end of days thinking and get to the task of moving forward.
What we cannot afford is what I see as a very predictable reality. Our earth cannot support a never ending increase of humans.
Politics is always a compromise, the earth will not compromise.
It all leaves us feeling helpless, unless we realize what small things we do are more than all the world governments have done in the recent climate gate.

Merlyn

[Merlyn]

http://www.businessandmedia.org/article ... 65138.aspx
http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/01/ ... cientists/
http://www.iceagenow.com/Of_Magnetic_Re ... nd_Ice.htm
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/01/07/s ... re-active/

As 2012 comes, do we really have any idea what we are about to see??
Seems the chatter is getting very interesting....

"The next ice age is due to global warming" all the way to "the earth or sun is about to reverse magnetic field"

If only the Spanish hadn't burned all but four of the the Mayan books eh?
Goes to show, like with the druids, it would really be nice to have a clue or two.

Getting my dowsing rods out to predict the weather
Pine cones seem to know perhaps more then even I thought...
Merlyn

[mwyalchen]

More lies.

And every one of those links boosts their google rating, and promotes them.

[Merlyn]

really?

Graphic1.jpg (63.58 KiB) Viewed 795 times

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NT ... WI=&w=MQ==

Just out my window... nope.
Earth warming....nope
C02 causes glaciers to melt...nope
Al Gore an environmentalist....nope
Global warming causes an ice age.... nope

Pine cones predicted a very cold winter... yup
Global warming got changed to climate change.... yup
Climate change summit was still all about global warming....yup

Fudge means fudge.... yup

Ahhh well,
We will all just have to see what really happens.
Meanwhile the end of days nutballs will be hard at work trying all kinds of interesting predictions .... yup
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHW7KR33IQ&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Io-Tb7vTamY&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5A6h6r7 ... ature=fvwp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5SRgwg1nLo&NR=1
http://earthpro.info/
And just for fun;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMfUajhL24I&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xld4P4nz ... ature=fvwp

[mwyalchen]

More spam.

[Aelfarh]

I think you're missing the woods for the trees Merlyn, and so far I haven't read any accurate and sound science based info in all your links.

[Merlyn]

I think you're missing the woods for the trees Merlyn, and so far I haven't read any accurate and sound science based info in all your links.

I haven't seen any sound science or accurate information on global warming either, none of the "facts" to support global warming is from CO2 are real, nor are they supported by the actual climate of the earth.
Lots of fudged data, fear mongering and theory, but absolutely nothing on global warming with respect to CO2 has proven to be accurate, or to be able to predict anything to do with climate change.
Anyone who objects to the fact that global warming was a scam set out by a small minority of people gets the same response you just gave.

It is easy to jump on the ecology band wagon, a favorite of all, but when it is a scam designed to reap tax money, supported by fudged data and tricks which do not bear out in the actual discoveries, it is bad science.

Can you imagine what 442PPM looks like in a graph? (that is 442 of 1,000,000) Very small %

And then consider that carbon is a fraction of what the atmosphere is made of, and frankly a natural part of it, the argument falls completely flat.
Now, do you know that Hydrocarbons are?
The PPM of HC is a much more real factor in ice melt then anything to do with CO2

That is a scientific fact.
Soot and HC are real, do cause ice melt but again do not cause global warming. This is accepted truth but ignored by climate gate,
and frankly if the science is to be real, you have to know it like I do.
I worked for the EPA (Environmental Protection Agency) for over 15 years. How about you?
I was a compliance officer for the EPA for 12 years, how about you?

Yes I know very well what I am speaking to here.
And this is far from the first scam I have seen.
I had to attend college courses on emissions complance and pollution for 15 years, how about you?

Merlyn

[Aelfarh]

It's a common misunderstanding thinking that when studies are referring to CO2, that is the only gas that we are talking about.

Of course CO2 is not the only thing, the combustion product gases are various, CO2, yes, but also CO, NOx, SOx, CHN, SH2, etc. and let's not forget water vapour, all part of the greenhouse effect. When the studies refer to CO2, usually they are referring to the equivalent effect of CO2, since it's easier to account everything into one basis. It amaze me then, that after 15 years you haven't being able to understand that simple concept.

Also you have to consider the "ash" effect, all the pollutants that are producing a layer that obstructs the sun and therefore produce a cool down effect, in the past most of the efforts have being focus on the visible pollution. Case in point, cars and coaches.

[Merlyn]

The equivalent effects of CO2 are not the same as claiming CO2 causes global warming, and fact is fact, that is what they claim.
The entire concept of greenhouse gases needs to consider the facts not claims which are totally false. This disinformation has led to the complete meltdown of the climate summit.
Also the indirect ecological impacts of emissions is far more important than "they" want to admit.

The "cap and trade" issue is a scam. How so?
The large polluters get to pay to pollute and the $$ is passed onto the consumer. This large sum of money is also then put in the pockets of politicians like Al Gore.

Did I mention I was also a Virginia Department of Environmental Quality compliance officer for 12 years?
Did you know that large companies lobbied to make it "not directly responsible for human endangerment" for diesel emissions, and thus evade DEQ for decades?
Did you then see the results of acid rain? I was one who spoke out in the meeting halls, wrote the letters and forced this issue into compliance.


This is much the same kind of scam.
Merlyn

[Aelfarh]

The equivalent effects of CO2 are not the same as claiming CO2 causes global warming, and fact is fact, that is what they claim.

Not true, as you then probably know for what you said, all internal combustion engines (diesel, gas turbines, otto engines, etc) and other combustion machinery as HRSGs and various boilers, measure their emissions in equivalent parts of CO2, that doesn't mean that they ONLY produce CO2, that's a known fact for everyone who has worked with machinery on industrial level.

[Merlyn]

HC (unburned fuel for the most part) is particulate matter, CO2 is a molecule. HC is the culprit of glacier melt not CO2.
Also NOX is another situation entirely, and another situation ignored by climate gate
http://www.mygreenpeacebuddies.com/pine ... 66302.html
NOX emissions is created in cars when the combustion temperature is too high, and EGR systems were introduced to stop this, until the lean burn closed loop emissions systems were invented. This is achieved by a fuel to air ratio called Lambda, (13 parts air to one part fuel)
This allows palladium in auto emission systems to remove 90% of the pollutants. In fact these systems convert the harmful gases into water.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palladium
NOX emissions is largely created by low octane fuel and pre ignition.
This is no longer a concern for the automobile industry as it has been stopped.

However because the owners of automobiles cannot fight back with large lobby interest in political pork, they are easy targets for tax that for the most part is totally off target.
In the mean time industry is allowed to continue to pollute with large amounts of particulates which directly cause glacier ice melt.

Improper forestry as the link above suggests contributes not only to the problem, but removes the natural CO2 absorbing trees.
NOX is a culprit in greenhouse affect, which causes serious problems. However, again it is not CO2.
The emissions analyser is phased out because it is now moot. The closed loop emissions systems on automobiles has its own O2 sensor and simply reads out the data for the last 500 miles. This is done also in a 50 mile stage. Particulate matter however is still measured by gathering it and weighing it.
The PPM of HC, O2 NOX and CO2 is compared to give an idea of the burn on an analyser, however it is a poor measure by comparison.
CO, CO2, O2, NO, NO2, NH3, N2O, CH4, are the gasses tested by span gas meters.

Cap and trade is being sold as a new idea, and in fact it is not at all a new idea. It is a historically failed political tool.
Obama and Al Gore think we have forgotten the past. I remember very well this scam.
Meanwhile we allow other countries to produce our solutions, and fail to create any new jobs.
Climate gate is a scam, it fails in the most critical needs of reducing pollution, is a political tool to sell us out and does nothing to produce results.
This idea failed completely on a national scale, and now they think it can be sold on an international scale.
Environmental science is something the politicians think they can fool the world with, and reap billions. Do not be fooled.

Merlyn

[Art]

Folks....This is an important topic and one that bears considerable discussion however this particular thread appears to have run it's course and nothing new is emerging. With that in mind, we are opting to lock this thread where it is before emotions flare. Feel free to start another relevant topic if you so desire.