Climategate

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This subforum is for discussions of any issues and concerns that impact the environment, such as biodiversity, global climate change, genetically engineered plants and animals, human population, animal and nature conservation, natural disasters, etc. Host: Kernos

Climategate

Postby DJ Droood » 26 Nov 2009, 20:18

I haven't seen any mention or discussion about this yet....actually, I haven't seen much in the newspaper or other media either, other than in Op-ed pieces and commentary from right wing types who are crowing about the "climate change hoax" being exposed. Has anyone been following this? And whatever the truth, is the moral highground now lost, and the big oil folks have enough ammo to stop any substantive "lifestyle" changes?

http://www.examiner.com/x-25061-Climate ... e-messages
The content of the messages would seem to be clear – dissenting opinions were not welcome. Rather than refute with science, many of those who wrote in the CRU emails chose to resort to other tactics. For them, it was never about honest and open scientific debate. It was about silencing and crushing critics and nothing less would suffice.


http://www.calgarysun.com/comment/colum ... 1-sun.html
If it was about saving the planet, "cap-and-trade" (a.k.a. cap-and-tax) -- how Big Government, Big Business and Big Green ludicrously pretend we will "fight" global warming and "save the planet" -- would have been consigned to the dust bin of history because it doesn't work. We know it doesn't work because Europe's five-year-old cap-and-trade market -- the Emissions Trading Scheme -- has done nothing to make the world cooler.

All it's done is make hedge fund managers, speculators and Big Energy giddy with windfall profits, while making everyone else poorer by driving up the cost of energy, and thus of most goods and services, which need energy to be lighted, heated, cooled, grown, constructed, manufactured, produced and transported.
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Re: Climategate

Postby Jackdaw » 26 Nov 2009, 21:16

The Guardian has been covering the issue. The link takes you to an article in which the scientist at the centre of the argument presents his side of the story and I believe he's right in saying that this leak is more than a coincidence this close to the Copenhagen climate talks. I'm no scientist, but the evidence for climate change appears to be extensive.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/nov/24/climate-professor-leaked-emails-uea
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Re: Climategate

Postby mwyalchen » 27 Nov 2009, 18:15

I spent a few hours going through the discussion on RealClimate, which is a site run by climate scientists, including some recipients of the leaked emails.

It took an age to read through, but by the end I had seen most of the emails that the global warming sceptics claimed were damaging, and also read about the context they were taken from and the explanations given by scientists who knew the issues.

In the end, I reckoned that there wasn't much to the sceptics' claims - most of the emails had perfectly reasonable explanations when taken in context, and in some the excerpts chosen by the sceptics were highly misleading.

Examples: - the phrase about "hiding the decline" that is being made so much of actually referred to a statistical procedure for dealing with a known problem, whereby a sequence of data from tree-trunk cores which follows the known temperatures well up to the 1960s diverges thereafter. This problem has been discussed publicly (in a paper in Nature, no less) and the discussion was not about hiding temperature data from the public, it was about ways of combining the valid part of the data with other data sequences.

- the comments by Trenberth about uncertainties in accounting for atmospheric energy inputs were about measuring small-scale everyday variations, and were not a reference to long-term climate models.

- of the data which the sceptics are claiming the CRU refuses to hand over, the bulk of what they requested is already publicly available, much of it online. Other data sequences have been given to CRU by national meteorology sevices who would normally charge for its use, in recognition of the use that CRU can make of it; CRU do not have the right to hand this over. Despite explaining this, CRU have had to deal with large numbers of continuing requests for the information, and have got highly exasperated about the waste of time and energy dealing with this. The reference to not telling the sceptics about the Freedom of Information Act was a joke, in relation to information they had requested which was already publicly available.

Etc, etc.

Not everything is quite so straightforward. The request to delete emails on a particular discussion could bear further explanation - there may be a good explanation (were the emails actually about irrelevant private matters?) but without some indication of the subject of the discussion and why someone wanted them deleted I feel it doesn't look good. The bit about trying to avoid releasing information in response to a FOI request certainly doesn't look good to me, though it seems the emails were not in fact deleted - in fact some people are saying the file of emails that the hijackers got hold of was actually put together ready to hand over if that FOI request had been successful.

Also, Watts and others are making a number of claims about the computing code attached to some of the emails, claiming that annotations to them show an intent to deceive. I didn't find any discussion of this on RealClimate - I'll be looking again in a few days. Given that most of the rest of what's been claimed about all this is without much foundation, my prejudice is to expect that these claims are also spurious; but I would like to see some proper discussion of what this is about, as in this area I'm certainly not qualified to assess the claims myself.

Overall, though, I reached two conclusions:

1) Most of what's been claimed about the emails is not true,

and, more importantly,

2) Even if it was true, it would discredit just one small part of a much larger body of evidence. The fact that a small group of scientists behaved like ordinary human beings when faced with some people who they were thoroughly annoyed with; the fact that some of their emails can (spuriously) be made to look bad; the fact that in some cases they wrote things that actually do look bad; even the possibility that they may not have wanted to cooperate with people they felt were pestering them: none of these have any bearing on the validity of climate science overall.

It's a long slog wading through all the pages of posts to find the substantive bits; but if anyone wants to look for themselves, the discussion I'm referring to are here:

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/ar ... -cru-hack/
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/ar ... k-context/
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Re: Climategate

Postby DJ Droood » 27 Nov 2009, 18:36

mwyalchen wrote:In the end, I reckoned that there wasn't much to the sceptics' claims - most of the emails had perfectly reasonable explanations when taken in context, and in some the excerpts chosen by the sceptics were highly misleading.Etc, etc.



I fear not everyone will be as thoughtful as you, and will depend on the snippits we hear on the news, mostly from the skeptics it seems. I wonder what the long-term fall-out will be? The oil companies are already spending a great deal of money on disinformation, setting up websites, paying off talk radio people, etc, so this will be used by them, context or no.

Here is a great example of oil-company propaganda at work: http://friendsofscience.org/
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Re: Climategate

Postby mwyalchen » 28 Nov 2009, 16:56

More discussion here:

http://www.skepticalscience.com/What-do ... ll-us.html
http://allegationaudit.blogspot.com/
http://tamino.wordpress.com/2009/11/22/hack/

and a pdf summary of what the climate issues really are:

http://www2.sunysuffolk.edu/mandias/glo ... iction.pdf

Wikipedia have a page (currently locked to stop competitive editing) which describes reactions so far:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climategate

And you might enjoy this:

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/envi ... 911252254/
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Re: Climategate

Postby DJ Droood » 28 Nov 2009, 17:53

mwyalchen wrote:And you might enjoy this:

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/envi ... 911252254/


haha! the perfect rejoinder!
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Re: Climategate

Postby Merlyn » 28 Nov 2009, 18:03

Hi DJ,
It is all about taxing and not about real science, as CO2 isn't what they claim it is. Pollution is a problem that needs to be corrected, but what causes warming is another issue which includes many things from sun activity, ocean currents and much more.

Global warming became "climate change" when the truth came out. And of course we will always be in a state of climate change... why?
Because the earth always is!

Study I have done reveals that climate change follows cycles which include generally 20 & 30 year cycles, overlapping, and always evolving.
Are we as humans who pollute to blame? Not really. Do we contribute? In some ways yes, but at a percentage rate much lower than the other natural climate changes, (humans contribute in the range of very small %)

Right now we are leaving the warming trend and entering the cooling trend. If we study cycles of climate change we can discover things.
Early on in America (1800s) we were giving land grants in up-state NY to farmers and the climate was warm enough for robust farming for a short time. Long enough for towns to grow, which are like ghost towns now. In PA (1940s I think?) we had the Johns town flood. Just recently we had a cycle of hurricanes which all the scientists (who were allowed to speak) claimed would escalate and make an apocalyptic nightmare out of the gulf. Well... it didn't happen this year. Why? the Ocean currents have shifted back to "normal cool climate direction"

Is the future going to be like the past? No.
Because the things which affect our earth cycle on their own time, each rise and fall of climate temp is different, causing change and evolution.
Simply put, Al Gore is incorrect. We are not headed into a forever rise in temperature.

But also to be considered is the over-all affect of pollution. In this Al is correct.
It will take decades for the cooling trend to make change, and overlapping changes to be sure. And we might find the north pole as a vacation spot and glaciers forming elsewhere.
The truth is it isn't ever going to be what it was. Can we stop this? not really.
Is burning fossil fuel causing problems? Does small % make big problems? Yes to both.
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Re: Climategate

Postby Kernos » 28 Nov 2009, 18:23

A good discussion of this brouhaha is:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/g ... s-response

A couple of quotes for the scientifically au courant:

Some people say that I am romanticising science, that it is never as open and honest as the Popperian ideal. Perhaps. But I know that opaqueness and secrecy are the enemies of science. There is a word for the apparent repeated attempts to prevent disclosure revealed in these emails: unscientific. (emphasis mine)


The greatest tragedy here is that despite many years of outright fabrication, fraud and deceit on the part of the climate change denial industry, documented in James Hoggan and Richard Littlemore's brilliant new book Climate Cover-up, it is now the climate scientists who look bad.


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Re: Climategate

Postby Merlyn » 28 Nov 2009, 20:08

Then perhaps the fault is alarm"ism" (kind of a religion for some)
Prophecy isn't good for science, we all know better.

Stop pollution for that sake, absolutely.
Bringing focus on a problem is important.

But saying climate change is all our fault is where the confusion sets in. It's not really true, totally.
We might face a climate change we cannot control, had nothing to do with, we just don't know for sure. Lots of things are being looked at now, much more is known.

Science has also shown all kinds of climate changes on earth, and perhaps a few ideas caused by things other than normal.
What is important is to not pollute, we think so naturally. It affects our health. Getting back to this, and putting climate change in perspective would do better IMO.
The disinformation reaction comes from over doing it I think. The challenge is making natural energy from the sun, work better, go faster (so to speak) than anything fossle fuel can do, and I think we all know this is going to be the case.

Some day (if we make it) burning coal, oil and such will seem like ancient history. This is my hope.
Working with geothermal HVAC as example puts the electricity use well in the ability of solar panels.
If every home did this, we would all feed the grid. Simple?

But I agree there are those who are clinging to their profits on coal and oil and will appose real truth for the sake of $$.
There is nothing clean about coal...


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Re: Climategate

Postby mwyalchen » 29 Nov 2009, 02:52

Kernos: that was the discussion that sent to RealClimate to find out more; lots of opinion on the Guardian site, but very little of substance about just what the claims were and whether they added up. Having looked elsewhere, and found what I've found, I'm now thoroughly disappointed by Monbiot's reaction. He doesn't seem to have bothered to look into what the emails are really saying. The truth is that there have been no "repeated attempts to prevent disclosure". What has actually happened is that Watts requested data, most of which was already publicly available and the rest of which was not CRU's property and which they had no right to give him. Interestingly, Watts has made no attempt to get this data from the national Met services who actually own it. Instead he has organised a campaign of harassment - CRU have received more than 100 FoI requests for these data sets, each of which has to be dealt with separately at a heavy cost in time and effort. At times Watts has been putting in FoI requests for data which he already has from other sources... As I said, sheer harassment - I'm not surprised CRU have lost patience.

Merlyn: Have you got time to go through the scientific articles on the sites I've linked to? or if not, to take a look at that pdf? You might change your mind about the CO2 question. I'm no climate scientist; but I have taken a fairly serious interest in all of this, and I've read through a lot of descriptions of the science. The mechanism by which CO2 is involved in global warming is well-established, and recent temperature changes follow CO2-based predictions pretty well. And about 97% of scientists actually working on climate science believe that CO2 derived global warming is a reality. Yes, solar changes have caused climate change in the past; and deniers like Watts and McIntyre are doing their very best to confuse the issues and persuade people that there is still real uncertainty about what's going on - but comparing what they say with what RealClimate say, I've never yet found one of their claims that stood up better than the scientific arguments against it - and sometimes their work is just laughable.
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Re: Climategate

Postby Kernos » 29 Nov 2009, 17:29

mwyalchen wrote:Kernos: that was the discussion that sent to RealClimate to find out more; lots of opinion on the Guardian site, but very little of substance about just what the claims were and whether they added up. Having looked elsewhere, and found what I've found, I'm now thoroughly disappointed by Monbiot's reaction. He doesn't seem to have bothered to look into what the emails are really saying. The truth is that there have been no "repeated attempts to prevent disclosure". What has actually happened is that Watts requested data, most of which was already publicly available and the rest of which was not CRU's property and which they had no right to give him. Interestingly, Watts has made no attempt to get this data from the national Met services who actually own it. Instead he has organised a campaign of harassment - CRU have received more than 100 FoI requests for these data sets, each of which has to be dealt with separately at a heavy cost in time and effort. At times Watts has been putting in FoI requests for data which he already has from other sources... As I said, sheer harassment - I'm not surprised CRU have lost patience.


Thanks for the info, mwyalchen. The US news I watch, primarily CNN and Fox (to monitor the enemy, the right wing). The view being offered is that these scientists are only reporting data that supports their position. I got no idea that they were being harassed by FOI requests, and thought only one was offered. This clarified the later behavior of those involved. Though hiding was not a good idea in retrospect.

My 1st response is that emails do not have the same meanings as written memorandums, procedural manuals or written orders etc. Emails are largely conversations, thinking out-loud, speculating, brainstorming, getting-it-off-ones-chest... and done quickly, not given the time and thought an official document gets. It is the nature of the medium. I personally do not think emails should be allowed in legal discovery of evidence.

I do agree with Monbiot, that the average person interested in this subject will NOT put in the time necessary to understand the process or even understand how the scientific method works. It will provide ammo to the skeptics and those professionally involved in debunking global warming and other environmental concerns for business and political groups.

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Re: Climategate

Postby Corwen » 30 Nov 2009, 11:01

As Merlyn says, there are lots of reasons to reduce consumption and pollution aside from Global warming, habitat destruction perhaps being the most pressing.

Personally I believe that on a shared world with limited resources, where so many live on the edge of survival there is a moral imperative to only take what you need, and to help the less fortunate where you can, regardless of any worry about the climate (not that I am disputing the reality of climate change for a second).

As for Climategate, I think we should expect more of the same. Vested interests, whether that is corporations or states, have always been prepared to play dirty, break the law and use smear tactics, violence and media manipulation when it suited them.
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Re: Climategate

Postby Merlyn » 30 Nov 2009, 16:48

http://www.scotese.com/climate.htm

We should be concerned, absolutely.
But we should also see all of this from a true educated perspective.

http://www.livescience.com/environment/ ... story.html
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Re: Climategate

Postby DJ Droood » 30 Nov 2009, 17:21

Merlyn wrote:http://www.scotese.com/climate.htm

We should be concerned, absolutely.
But we should also see all of this from a true educated perspective.

http://www.livescience.com/environment/ ... story.html



It is hard for the layperson to know who to trust..so much disinformation and vested interest....
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Re: Climategate

Postby Merlyn » 30 Nov 2009, 17:47

Even more so when we see things like this;
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,577746,00.html

Especially knowing the source... So we go to another..
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/e ... 936328.ece

Roger Pielke, professor of environmental studies at Colorado University, discovered data had been lost when he asked for original records. “The CRU is basically saying, ‘Trust us’. So much for settling questions and resolving debates with science,” he said.

Jones was not in charge of the CRU when the data were thrown away in the 1980s, a time when climate change was seen as a less pressing issue. The lost material was used to build the databases that have been his life’s work, showing how the world has warmed by 0.8C over the past 157 years.


There goes all the evidence...
And it is very hard to believe such value evidence was tossed in the trash to save ... space.
It would all probably fit in a few thumb drives.

At this point I am doing my own research, as I too do not trust anyone about this.
There was a great documentary on last night, by a team of people searching Alaska for global warming evidence.
But this all becomes a bit moot when we realize the warming trend is most likely over, and since it was from an ice age, of course we are going to see melting glaciers.
It seems to all boil down to one degree.... All the rest is natural progression the earth goes through no matter what.

I see pollution as the issue, destruction of habitat. This climate change thing is ... well.... normal to a degree or % there-of. .8 degree in 157 years to be specific... Does .8 of a degree melt all the ice on earth? really? Perspective is important.

Anyway, back to splitting wood for the winter.
I do have two fireplaces (thankfully)

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Re: Climategate

Postby Aylyn » 30 Nov 2009, 18:09

Merlyn wrote:There goes all the evidence...
And it is very hard to believe such value evidence was tossed in the trash to save ... space.
It would all probably fit in a few thumb drives.


The problem is that it is very hard to migrate data fom one database version to another, or make it availble on newer versions of a program. It would fit on a few thumb drives, but you would have to get it there from the tapes it was probably recorded on in the 80s. The trouble with all the wealth of data we collect at the moment is the it is so dependent on the computers and programs used, and with that changing all the time it isnhard to keep up. Often, data that seem unimportant at that time are left behind, and when we realize their value it is too late tp recover them - harder than deciphering the Rosetta stone, so we just not bother. Particularly true when money and personnel are limited....

It is a shame that we are losing so much, granted.

Merlyn wrote:At this point I am doing my own research, as I too do not trust anyone about this.
There was a great documentary on last night, by a team of people searching Alaska for global warming evidence.
But this all becomes a bit moot when we realize the warming trend is most likely over, and since it was from an ice age, of course we are going to see melting glaciers.
It seems to all boil down to one degree.... All the rest is natural progression the earth goes through no matter what.

I see pollution as the issue, destruction of habitat. This climate change thing is ... well.... normal to a degree or % there-of. .8 degree in 157 years to be specific... Does .8 of a degree melt all the ice on earth? really? Perspective is important.


The trouble is we are seeing the tail end of this warming period. I am not sure we could stop it, even if we agreed on a course of action today and implemented it worldwide. And knowing our propensity for making things worse, I am very distrustful of the proposed methods overall.
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Re: Climategate

Postby Kernos » 30 Nov 2009, 20:13

Aylyn wrote:The trouble is we are seeing the tail end of this warming period. I am not sure we could stop it, even if we agreed on a course of action today and implemented it worldwide. And knowing our propensity for making things worse, I am very distrustful of the proposed methods overall.


What is the evidence that we are at the tail end, and not midway or even earlier? I would porsulate that with China booming and the US not doing much, not to mention significant population increases, that the average temperatures will continue to rise.

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Re: Climategate

Postby Aylyn » 01 Dec 2009, 14:56

I estimate it to be the tail end, as it seems we have lost most of the ice already. The few glaciers left in Europe are almost not worth mentioning anymore, and even places like the antarctic are melting off. Scientist predict a sea-level rise by up to a meter over the next 100 years, in geological terms and looked at over the last 15000 years (when the last ice age ended), this is just a minor increment. For us humans, however, it will be a major change in circumstances. There are countries that will be practically lost when the sea level rises by a meter, such as the Netherlands and Bangla Desh, and we will have to relocate millions of people. Many coastal cities will have to be abandoned, some of them quite large such as New York.

The resulting chaos could well reduce human population so far that we no longer pose a threat. Tail end....
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Re: Climategate

Postby Kernos » 01 Dec 2009, 16:56

Merlyn wrote:Then perhaps the fault is alarm"ism" (kind of a religion for some)
Prophecy isn't good for science, we all know better.


Do you really meant that, Merlyn? Predication is fundamental to the scientific method. You come to me with RLQ pain and rigidity, fever, nausea, vomiting, a white count of 14,000 a positive sonogram and I predict you have acute appendicitis and I will be correct more than 95% of the time. Shall we act on my prediction and cut out your appendix, or should we wait and see what happens? After all, as those skeptical of would scientists say, I just want to operate so I can put my kids thru college.

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Re: Climategate

Postby Merlyn » 01 Dec 2009, 18:13

Would cutting the appendix out of global warming help? :-)

I am not sure we could stop it, even if we agreed on a course of action today

I'm not sure we created it.

The melting ice would have happened anyway, no matter what.
The issue I see is can the earth then go back to a cold cycle.

And then if it does, is an ice age any better?
Especially since we burned all the fuel?

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ac o wybod, gwybod yn gyfiawn;
ac o wybod yn gyfiawn ei garu;
ac o garu, caru Duw.
Duw a phob daioni.
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Merlyn
OBOD Druid
 
Posts: 9193
Age: 54
Joined: 02 Feb 2003, 23:56
Location: By candle light, penning the dragon's dream.
Gender: Male

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