Twinkies !!!!

[Dreamworld]

I couldnt find the huimour section so this is the only other place I could think of to post it (without causing ww3 )
Its from a Native American site. Although its not specifically related to druidry perhaps some elements of it apply nonetheless.  Its not aimed at anyone on this site - theres some good people here - but it IS funny.....

What exactly is a twinkie? Is it a delicious cream filled snack cake? The nickname of the Minnesota Twins, or an Asian American who acts like a whiteman? Well, a Twinkie may be many of those things but when real live indians talk about Twinkies, they're not talking about any of these things. A Twinkie is a person, almost always a white, privileged person who peddles spiritual junk food. Just as the Hostess version is all sugar and chemicals containing very little nutritional value, the New Age Twinkie is artificial and valueless in a spiritual sense.

Twinkies all have different interests, but there is one trait that they all have in common: an auditory impairment that makes them incapable of hearing or comprehending the word, "No!" This impairment is particularly prominent when a person of lower social class, especially Native Americans, are uttering the word. Some Twinkies have been known to remain completely oblivious to the fact that an entire Nation, the Lakota, have declared War on them. Cat owners may be able to relate to this phenomenon. A cat can hear a can opener three blocks away, but its auditory canals cannot pick up the word, "No!" while engaged in climbing the curtains. The feline brain is approximately the size of a walnut, so one can deduce that Twinkies probably posses brains of comparable size.

Another common trait is a sense of entitlement. Twinkies are often heard preaching about how everyone is entitled to Native American Spirituality. However, no one can have their graphics. It's a subtle distinction that often proves hard to grasp.

Twinkies always stick together. Whenever one Twinkie is exposed, all the other Twinkies rush to its defense with crocodile tears. They make elegant testimonials as to the Twinkies "good intentions" and its kind and "caring voice." It's a kind of professional courtesy among thieves. Good intentions are the New Age equivalent of a "Get out of jail free card". They are an all purpose excuse for any type of exploitation or charlatanism.

A fool and his money are soon parted. The Twinkie counts on this. Just like McDonalds, they know how to please the masses. They know how to mix just the right combinations of Christianity, psycho-babble, Astrology, re-incarnation, Wicca, crystal healing, Tarot card reading and astro-projection to appeal to the general public, desparate for spiritual enlightenment, but not really committed to doing anything that requires too much time or effort, especially on week-ends.



http://www.geocities.com/planettwinkie/WhatIs.html

[Seeker]

Dreamworld -

I am curious...why would you think this is humorous? I know many First Nations people and they are dead serious when it comes to what they consider the exploitation of their culture and spirituality. I don't think the author was really trying to be funny...

[Dreamworld]

It is humorous - but has a deadly serious point. Many a true word spoken in Jest as they say.
The Lakota did actually declare war on people who were wandering around calling themselves "pipekeepers"

[Merlyn]

Greetings Dreamworld,
 I see you posted this in the Skeptical Druid Forum, so I figure you have put this up for debate? this kind of hate mongering as a debate topic?

And as a debate topic, it truly is just that.
What then is your point? It obviously isn't humor. Do you wish to debate this topic?
I consider this antagonistic, and frankly false. If you are poking fun at this subject, please explain.

The Lakota did actually declare war on people who were wandering around calling themselves "pipekeepers"

Do you have any credible source for this quote? (aside from a hate mongering web-site?)

oblivious to the fact that an entire Nation, the Lakota, have declared War on them.

Was your intention to poke fun at this? what is the point? Is there any credible source for this as well? (again I ask it not be just another web-site)

Last I checked Twinkies in this context is simply used to spread bigotry.


Merlyn

[SidheAingeal]

I think the point is a dig or complaint about a particular breed of fluffies in the Pagan movement.  And I think it is against this view and supportive of the Native American people, albeit in a roundabout and hard to decipher way.

It's not terribly funny though.

[Dreamworld]

Greetings Dreamworld,
 I see you posted this in the Skeptical Druid Forum, so I figure you have put this up for debate? this kind of hate mongering as a debate topic?

And as a debate topic, it truly is just that.
What then is your point? It obviously isn't humor. Do you wish to debate this topic?
I consider this antagonistic, and frankly false. If you are poking fun at this subject, please explain.

The Lakota did actually declare war on people who were wandering around calling themselves "pipekeepers"

Do you have any credible source for this quote? (aside from a hate mongering web-site?)

oblivious to the fact that an entire Nation, the Lakota, have declared War on them.

Was your intention to poke fun at this? what is the point? Is there any credible source for this as well? (again I ask it not be just another web-site)

Last I checked Twinkies in this context is simply used to spread bigotry.





Merlyn

Here is a link to the Lakota declaration of war :


http://www.aics.org/war.html


Well I thought it was funny. Is this not the "skeptical" druid section ? If I wanted to be antagonistic I would have posted it somewhere else .

I think the bit about it that I found pertinent is the mockery of those that make money out of peoples desire for spiritual things.
I also think the remark about "entitlement" that we should have whatever we want regardless of the feelings of others, was also an important one.

[Lily]

I couldnt find the huimour section so this is the only other place I could think of to post it (without causing ww3 )
Its from a Native American site. Although its not specifically related to druidry perhaps some elements of it apply nonetheless.  Its not aimed at anyone on this site - theres some good people here - but it IS funny...

hmm....

I can agree with some of this article -  with native americans being offended if their culture and rituals are "sold" to the masses after having been treated with fabric softener.

But I have a couple questions for you - did you put this into the skeptical druid to question the way some work with native american topics? Or is it aimed at how druidry tries to recall the native european spirituality? Can you elaborate?

Perhaps this could lead into an interesting thread on how we do approach the various facets that spirituality offers us - do we just lump everything together a bit, pick and mix, eclectically?

Are there things you clearly reject, or is new-found, new age spirituality like being a kid in a candy store?

Who among us rejects the label "new age" and why?
I think this is an opportunity to look at how we deal with the information overload on offer in the spiritual market.

[Merlyn]

Well I thought it was funny.

Ok,
 Well it is a serious problem IMO, and one that I find is greatly misunderstood and often over-generalized, but for another example.
 I find books and DVD's about how to become a reiki master, (simply check amazon.com) which is against the ethical code of those who really are Reiki masters, (one must be taught by another Reiki master) and the same could be said for many other healing and magical arts.

So I just don't see the humor, but that's just me.  :wink:

Merlyn

[Dreamworld]

I couldnt find the huimour section so this is the only other place I could think of to post it (without causing ww3 )
Its from a Native American site. Although its not specifically related to druidry perhaps some elements of it apply nonetheless.  Its not aimed at anyone on this site - theres some good people here - but it IS funny...

hmm....

I can agree with some of this article -  with native americans being offended if their culture and rituals are "sold" to the masses after having been treated with fabric softener.

But I have a couple questions for you - did you put this into the skeptical druid to question the way some work with native american topics? Or is it aimed at how druidry tries to recall the native european spirituality? Can you elaborate?

Perhaps this could lead into an interesting thread on how we do approach the various facets that spirituality offers us - do we just lump everything together a bit, pick and mix, eclectically?

Are there things you clearly reject, or is new-found, new age spirituality like being a kid in a candy store?

Who among us rejects the label "new age" and why?
I think this is an opportunity to look at how we deal with the information overload on offer in the spiritual market.

Well like I said theres the money thing.  It always kind of irks me because sometimes I think people, especially younger people or lost people, are being exploited.
Then yes I think people who are not Native American who mix Celtic and Native American stuff together could understand that it its OK but only as long as the people who those customs come from it are ok with it. Many native American are not OK with it as the above Lakota declaration of war clearly shows.
As for New age beliefs - I think that some of what is labelled as new age is very interesting, however the way it has become a profit making enterprise and with people saying things like "money is just another form of energy" really turns me off.
However I have no problem with "new" ideas.

[Merlyn]

Many native American are not OK with it as the above Lakota declaration of war clearly shows.

That is very true, and deservingly so. But I also know that if you are accepted and given the grace to do so, some Native American traditions can be learned. Just that this idea is not an "absolute". I know personally those who have, and those who have asked me very serious questions before answering mine. The Native American spirits are very alive in this land, and make themselves known to anyone practicing here. This I know from personal experience.

It is not ok just to "hi-jack" traditions of others, native of any tribe, Celtic, Indian etc.

I find this article written in a antagonistic sense of "humor".
This way of speaking of such a subject might bring it to light. I however would like it to have included my own ancestry, which it seems to just touch on.

Reiki masters often charge for their time, and that is another issue, even though healing arts are ethically not charged for, some gift or compensation is only fair in some way for the investment.
The same goes for the OBOD, which really only covers the expense of operation for its course. As example any other college course by comparison is far more expensive. I guess this would fall under "non-profit" as business goes.

Merlyn

[Jingle]

Well like I said theres the money thing.  It always kind of irks me because sometimes I think people, especially younger people or lost people, are being exploited.
Then yes I think people who are not Native American who mix Celtic and Native American stuff together could understand that it its OK but only as long as the people who those customs come from it are ok with it. Many native American are not OK with it as the above Lakota declaration of war clearly shows.
As for New age beliefs - I think that some of what is labelled as new age is very interesting, however the way it has become a profit making enterprise and with people saying things like "money is just another form of energy" really turns me off.

But surely this is not funny?  

I think that we should clearly respect the beliefs of others.  What we accept as our own belief system, however, is our own business.  I think that if someone incorporates some of the Native American methods or ideas into an overall eclectic and individual belief system, then it really isn't the Native American belief system anymore.   (I haven't gotten that far in my studies yet since I don't multi-task spiritualities well, and I'm currently working on the Bardic Course).

As far as the money aspect, I think there is no way to avoid it.  Religious bookstores, new age shops, mystical supply stores...  They all sell things and sometimes services to people that want them.  Crystals, candles, incense, censers, tarot decks, "how to" books etc. aren't too much different than Bible stories, crucifixes, inspirational sayings on paperweights, rosaries, prayer books, and so on in the Christian traditions.

I think one of the biggest problems is the "fluffy" aspect of it.  But who are the fluffies (twinkies)?  Are these really people that feel so lost and empty that they try to find some thread of spirituality anywhere they can find it?  Perhaps their hearts are so empty that they think that by spending some money they can fill themselves?  I know plenty of Christians that do the same thing.  I feel sad for that emptiness.  I don't think it's too funny.

[Donata]

I agree that the appropriation of Native American and other indigenious spirituality, without agreement of those people, is an extension of  colonial suppression. It's not funny at all. Longstanding  treaties with the Seneca are under attack in NY state today because of greed. The negative effects of colonialism are still around. The Seneca, BTW, were never defeated. They chose to make peace treaties with the US. George Washington is a signer of treaties that are under attack today.

On the other hand, there are Elders who approve of sharing their knowledge as a way of preserving the teachings.

I am an apprenticed shaman in the shamanic lineage of Don Jose Matusuwa, a Huichol Elder. In older days I would have served him as a companion, etc. Today money is the practical medium of exchange for the privilege of receiving the teachings and training. Don Jose said:

"The teachings are for all, not just for Indians... The white people never wanted to learn before. They thought we were savages. Now they have a different understanding, and they do want to learn. We are all children of God. The tradition is open to anyone who wants to learn."

Oh Shinnah Fastwolf is a woman of mixed ancestry; the Tineh (Apache), the  Mohawk, and the Scottish. In "Legends of the Rainbow Warriors" by Steven McFadden she says:

 “There is a prophecy that states a time would come when Indians would reincarnate on this planet as part of the dominant society, which is white society. The Indians’ spirits would incarnate in the dominant society to change the attitude of that society. So learning native ways is very natural to them. This will also be a time when all the esoteric teachings of the world’s traditions will be revealed, so that there will be no secrets, no reason to fear each other or to be in conflict. This is clearly happening now.  If a person has a sincere heart and wants to walk the path of the sacred, it should be accessible to them. As far as I am concerned it doesn’t have anything to do with the color of your skin. It is the way you live your life. The only thing we have to give is the way we live our lives. If you live on this land, and you have ancestors sleeping in this land, I believe that makes you native to this land. I was raised not to look at people racially. What I was taught is that we’re flowers in Great Spirit’s garden.  We share a common root, and the root is Mother Earth.  The garden is beautiful because it has different colors in it, and those colors represent different traditions and cultural backgrounds.”


I'm a member of the Seneca Wolf Clan Teaching Lodge. Twyla Nitsch is our Grandmother (Elder) and she has taught sincere white people the Seneca ways, as well as many younger Native people who wish to know more of the ways of their ancestors. Twyla has published several books.

I'm also honored to be a member of the Native American Council of the Monarch Bear Institute. Council members are Native, mixed, and white, all sharing a deep respect for Native American teachings.

I paid happily for the OBOD Course, and for several of Philip's books. The course and the books added to my depth of spiritual understanding.

There is some truth in your quote, but no humor. Why continue the bigotry? Why not a serious discussion?

So what exactly do you want to discuss Dreamworld? Don't bother to tell me why your quote is funny - I'm not amused.

BB
Donata

[Dreamworld]

Hi,
well the quote is of course meant to be humorous , however that is is not to demean its serious message.
If you cant find any humour in it well ..... thats a little odd because the First nations Native message board certainly found humour in it.
however the humour is a side issue, the main issue is cultural exploitation.
well Donata i couldn't comment on your situation as I am not Huichol.
as for discussing the article - well Ive already said what I thought was interesting and pertinanet about it.
however you might find this site interesting :

New Age Frauds & Plastic Shamans

Do you think you are "Indian at heart" or were an Indian in a past life? Do you admire native ways and want to incorporate them into your life and do your own version of a sweat lodge or a vision quest? Have you seen ads, books, and websites that offer to train you to be come a shaman in an easy number of steps, a few days on the weekend, or for a fee?

Have you really thought this all the way through? Have you thought about how native people feel about what you might want to do?

Please think about these important points before you take that fateful step and expend time, money, and emotional investment:

Native people DO NOT believe it is ethical to charge money for any ceremony or teaching. Any who charge you even a penny are NOT authentic.

http://www.newagefraud.org/


Yes the christian also were corrupted by money making - and if I remmeber rightly jesus did not take to kindly to that.

Now Im not being deliberately contraversal for fun- nor am I trying to cause anger - but I sincerly believe we need to at least examine these opinions.

[Lorraine]

well Donata i couldn't comment on your situation as I am not Huichol.

You're not Lakota either, right?  I thought you were British, like me, with a bit of Romany/Scottish/Czech heritage.  Not that it especially matters, but the way you phrased that last answer that might imply that you might be Native American but not Huichol, and even might imply that you are Lakota, given the rest of the thread.  I'm sure you wouldn't want to confuse people here.  After all, it's perfectly OK if you want to take an interest in other cultures and their particular political/social issues, but it's helpful to know where the person is coming from, sometimes.  

Lorraine

[Dreamworld]

well Donata i couldn't comment on your situation as I am not Huichol.

You're not Lakota either, right?  I thought you were British, like me, with a bit of Romany/Scottish/Czech heritage.  Not that it especially matters, but the way you phrased that last answer that might imply that you might be Native American but not Huichol, and even might imply that you are Lakota, given the rest of the thread.  I'm sure you wouldn't want to confuse people here.  After all, it's perfectly OK if you want to take an interest in other cultures and their particular political/social issues, but it's helpful to know where the person is coming from, sometimes.  

Lorraine

thats right not a drop of Native Blood in me. Not sure about the Romany though and the Scots are British !   Just passing on information is all m'aam.

[Merlyn]

Greetings Dreamworld,
 Is it any different then you, a non-native are speaking about issue you truly know nothing more about than what you read?
I say this because I live here, in the Americas, have traveled across all of it, and know natives from Canada to the tip of South America. I have been on the reservations.
 For the sake of this debate, I find it a bit awkward listening to you, who live in the UK who pretended to be a Native American on line, speaking at all about this subject. It is kind of like a Christian telling me all about the plight of the Jew during the world wars in Europe. After all it was the Europeans who colonized America, plundered it and sent your people here under a king’s rule. Are you SERIOUS? I can't see how. Yet you seem to imply it is something we must know little about? Please remember we live here and know all about it.
 My experience with true Natives, Celtic and Native American, is that even this subject is considered something only a native should speak about. And just as a point of clarity of my own knowledge in this debate, I am married to a woman who was taught by Native American elders. I myself have also been very privileged in many ways by this land.

Please explain how you feel you are such an expert as to qualify any of what you say, aside from what you read on the web? So far it is the only way you have been able to converse, and I did clearly ask for examples which are not on the internet. This all seems like a repeat of this same old situation.

Just passing on information is all m'aam.

Perhaps if that is what you wish to do, this debate forum is the wrong place is all, and you could be more productive in this idea in the correct forum.

I also take note; that those who cannot answer my questions tend to just not even try.
Last time we met you were using the internet to pretend you were a Native American and as I clearly recall you caused a great deal of harm to some very good and knowledgeable Natives here.

I seriously question your agenda in this. This is simply not information you know first hand. And it shows to us who do.

First nations Native message board certainly found humor in it.

If this is the case I would have to question it. No native would find humor in it except as bigotry. The true native healer no matter what the culture, sees bigotry as something in-excusable.

Merlyn

[Dreamworld]

?????

[Dreamworld]

Greetings Dreamworld,
 Is it any different then you, a non-native are speaking about issue you truly know nothing more about than what you read?
I say this because I live here, in the Americas, have traveled across all of it, and know natives from Canada to the tip of South America. I have been on the reservations.
 For the sake of this debate, I find it a bit awkward listening to you, who live in the UK who pretended to be a Native American on line, speaking at all about this subject. It is kind of like a Christian telling me all about the plight of the Jew during the world wars in Europe. After all it was the Europeans who colonized America, plundered it and sent your people here under a king’s rule. Are you SERIOUS? I can't see how.

Just passing on information is all m'aam.

Perhaps if that is what you wish to do, this debate forum is the wrong place is all, and you could be more productive in this idea in the correct forum.


Last time we met you were using the internet to pretend you were a Native American and as I clearly recall you caused a great deal of harm to some very good and knowledgeable Natives here.

I seriously question your agenda in this. This is simply not information you know first hand. And it shows to us who do.

First nations Native message board certainly found humor in it.

If this is the case I would have to question it. No native would find humor in it except as bigotry. The true native healer no matter what the culture, sees bigotry as something in-excusable.

Merlyn

Merlyn - you are a liar. Please show me where I claimed to be a Native American Indian . You cant because you are lying. There are actually laws against lying about people you know. So your next grindingly predictable course of action is no doubt is to try and make out that I "implied" I was native American by not anouncing I was British at the beginning of every post I make - even though I have been quite straight about who I was with everyone including the natives I invited here. By making this thread about ME you can distract the discussion from the actual content of the articles I have posted.
I am merely passing on information I have seen on the web so we can discuss it I am not even saying I agree with all of it - its something I would also like to work out. are you saying things from the web shouldn't be discussed here ?  Bear in mind that some sources online are legitimate tribal governments and as such are valid sources of information.
   The information is written by Native groups and is meant to be destributed online by anyone . If you dont like what it says then we can discuss that too - but don't shoot the messenger .
Merlin if id wanted to start a flame war i would have posted this in the Shamanic druid, instead I posted it here which is I believe an appropriate forum.
_________________

[Merlyn]

No Dreamworld I did not lie,
 And you know it, so thus it is you in the implication of the shamanic Druid forum. How else would you know?
We here also remember your invitation to others to heckle a man who wished to post here, who was frankly harmless. He was a nice old guy who just liked to post about his heritage. I remember very well.

 And I take note you have yet to answer any of my questions. Again.

What I am asking is if you have ANY evidence of what you claim that I can find ANYWHERE that is not on the web.

making this thread about ME you can distract the discussion from the actual content of the articles I have posted.

My point being, what is often on the web is exactly what you posted in the first place.

Anything? Anything at all?

Perhaps posting a sensitive subject such as this one, and trying to find humor in it is just all wrong. I scanned the posts in the Shaman forum and note may of yours, you deleted. So what ever evidence is just my word, and I can accept that, however others seem to remember all of this very well too. I also note many threads were locked over this issue.

That is proof enough to me I might be a bit off, but far from a liar.
So I will only respond if you have any real proof of what you claim,
web sites will not be acceptable to me, remember, I live here.

Merlyn

[Crow]

If I may for a moment turn this debate from the "she said/he said," I'd like to question this statement:

Native people DO NOT believe it is ethical to charge money for any ceremony or teaching. Any who charge you even a penny are NOT authentic.

Now teaching takes many forms, does it not? Two very fine books that I have on my shelf are Black Elk Speaks as told by John G. Neihardt, and God is Red by Vine Deloria. I paid money for both and have learned from them.

Similarly, I pay for what I view as teachings from OBOD. I have learned from them also.

Payment can take many forms, and unless I am greatly mistaken, practitioners of Native American/First Nations religions do indeed receive "payment" for their expertise. This payment may take form of gifts, food, or simply thanks from the recipient. Maybe some of them take money, as even holy men have to eat.

I wouldn't be so quick to say that anyone who receives payment for "spiritual services rendered" is a charlatan. And I wouldn't be so quick to assume that payment always means cold, hard cash.