Is this Druidry?

[Sencha]

I often get strange looks when I describe myself as an Agnostic Druid, so I thought I'd present a statement of my beliefs in order to ascertain the consensus on whether or not my beliefs would fall under the definition of 'Druid' that others hold.

I have a science background, so I make a distinction between what I choose to believe and what I can demonstrate to be true. When others ask me if I believe in god(s), I usually tell them, 'Define what you mean by god(s), and I'll tell you whether or not I believe in them.'
From a rational, scientific perspective, I see no evidence or indication of any supernatural force responsible for anything in the Universe. At least, not any that could not be better described as my own misinterpretation of a perfectly natural phenomenon. As Sherlock Holmes said, 'Once you eliminate the impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, is the solution.'

That having been said, there are things that I choose to believe out of my own personal experience. Some of these include:

1. Matter and spirit are not separate. Spirit emanates from matter. Spirit is an emergent property of matter.
2. My own personal experiences lead me to believe in reincarnation because the alternative scientific explanations for those experiences are somehow less satisfying than the reincarnation explanation. I am self-aware enough to realize that this opinion could be a product of my own confirmation bias.
3. I believe that if reincarnation is real, then there is only ONE soul in the entire universe/multiverse. This soul is independent of time and can exist in the same time period in multiple places.
4. If #3 is true, then this means that I am you and you are me. We are simply at different points on the reincarnation journey.
5. I believe that all life (including rocks, inanimate matter, etc.) is in the process of reincarnation into other forms.
6. I believe that if there is a god or gods, then this entity is the one soul at the end of this reincarnation journey. If the purpose of reincarnation is to learn ALL possibilities by experiencing them all, good and bad, then a being or soul that has experienced everything there is to experience would be omniscient. Omniscience is one of the definitions commonly given to divine entities.
7. If all the above assumptions are true, we are all in the process of evolving into godhood.
8. I believe that if we could all learn that we are all manifestations of the same individual, such a knowledge would vastly transform the ways we interact with each other.
9. I believe we create our own reality with the thoughts, actions, and words we choose.
10. I believe that the ultimate goal of Druidry (at least in the way that I practice it) is to lead us all to this knowledge.

[DJ Droood]

sure, why not?

[Sencha]

I would add to this, that for me, the Awen most often comes in moments of meditation...preferably meditation in outdoor settings, where I can feel the spirit of nature embracing me.

[oaklight]

I often get strange looks when I describe myself as an Agnostic Druid, so I thought I'd present a statement of my beliefs in order to ascertain the consensus on whether or not my beliefs would fall under the definition of 'Druid' that others hold.

I have a science background, so I make a distinction between what I choose to believe and what I can demonstrate to be true. When others ask me if I believe in god(s), I usually tell them, 'Define what you mean by god(s), and I'll tell you whether or not I believe in them.'
From a rational, scientific perspective, I see no evidence or indication of any supernatural force responsible for anything in the Universe. At least, not any that could not be better described as my own misinterpretation of a perfectly natural phenomenon. As Sherlock Holmes said, 'Once you eliminate the impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, is the solution.'

That having been said, there are things that I choose to believe out of my own personal experience. Some of these include:

1. Matter and spirit are not separate. Spirit emanates from matter. Spirit is an emergent property of matter.
2. My own personal experiences lead me to believe in reincarnation because the alternative scientific explanations for those experiences are somehow less satisfying than the reincarnation explanation. I am self-aware enough to realize that this opinion could be a product of my own confirmation bias.
3. I believe that if reincarnation is real, then there is only ONE soul in the entire universe/multiverse. This soul is independent of time and can exist in the same time period in multiple places.
4. If #3 is true, then this means that I am you and you are me. We are simply at different points on the reincarnation journey.
5. I believe that all life (including rocks, inanimate matter, etc.) is in the process of reincarnation into other forms.
6. I believe that if there is a god or gods, then this entity is the one soul at the end of this reincarnation journey. If the purpose of reincarnation is to learn ALL possibilities by experiencing them all, good and bad, then a being or soul that has experienced everything there is to experience would be omniscient. Omniscience is one of the definitions commonly given to divine entities.
7. If all the above assumptions are true, we are all in the process of evolving into godhood.
8. I believe that if we could all learn that we are all manifestations of the same individual, such a knowledge would vastly transform the ways we interact with each other.
9. I believe we create our own reality with the thoughts, actions, and words we choose.
10. I believe that the ultimate goal of Druidry (at least in the way that I practice it) is to lead us all to this knowledge.

I might have worded it in an ever so slightly different way, but that sounds exactly what I believe. I would further state that those beings that some will experience as the Gods, plural, are the manifestation of Deity in forms that we can best understand, and contain a greater portion of Divine energy than we, as humans, do.

[treegod]

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing.

One thing that comes to my mind, and this is something I tend to think of when I think of Druidry, is social responsibility. The Druid class, though a great deal involved with spiritual and religious matters, were also very involved in the workings of their society. And, even if not in exactly the same way, social responsibility underpins what I think of Druidry. How about yourself? Where does it fit in?

[Sencha]

I would further state that those beings that some will experience as the Gods, plural, are the manifestation of Deity in forms that we can best understand, and contain a greater portion of Divine energy than we, as humans, do.

I have a similar belief, but with different words. If you replace 'divine' with the word 'conscience' or 'consciousness,' I"d totally agree with the sentence above.
I believe in archetypal energies, and those energies can manifest in individuals that some might call gods.

The Druid class, though a great deal involved with spiritual and religious matters, were also very involved in the workings of their society. And, even if not in exactly the same way, social responsibility underpins what I think of Druidry. How about yourself? Where does it fit in?

I totally agree. Social activism is one of the four pillars of my Order. A lifelong dream of mine is to develop a sustainable community based on Druidic principles.

[John T. Folden]

I don't see why that couldn't fit within the realm of Druidry as it is considered to be by the OBODiverse. I may not agree with it very much in theory but how we approach something internally or if the gods are real is often beside the point when it comes to the overall scheme of things.

[Frog]

1. Matter and spirit are not separate. Spirit emanates from matter. Spirit is an emergent property of matter.
2. My own personal experiences lead me to believe in reincarnation because the alternative scientific explanations for those experiences are somehow less satisfying than the reincarnation explanation. I am self-aware enough to realize that this opinion could be a product of my own confirmation bias.
3. I believe that if reincarnation is real, then there is only ONE soul in the entire universe/multiverse. This soul is independent of time and can exist in the same time period in multiple places.
4. If #3 is true, then this means that I am you and you are me. We are simply at different points on the reincarnation journey.
5. I believe that all life (including rocks, inanimate matter, etc.) is in the process of reincarnation into other forms.
6. I believe that if there is a god or gods, then this entity is the one soul at the end of this reincarnation journey. If the purpose of reincarnation is to learn ALL possibilities by experiencing them all, good and bad, then a being or soul that has experienced everything there is to experience would be omniscient. Omniscience is one of the definitions commonly given to divine entities.
7. If all the above assumptions are true, we are all in the process of evolving into godhood.
8. I believe that if we could all learn that we are all manifestations of the same individual, such a knowledge would vastly transform the ways we interact with each other.
9. I believe we create our own reality with the thoughts, actions, and words we choose.
10. I believe that the ultimate goal of Druidry (at least in the way that I practice it) is to lead us all to this knowledge.

Interesting thoughts.
If I extrapolate thoughts #1, #3, #4 then in theory it could be argued that we are not evolving into Godhood, but that we are already connected to Godhood. Whether that means we are in effect Gods, or that the Gods exist within us is an interesting consideration.

A lot of this tallies quite strongly with my understanding of Taosim.

Blessings
Frog

[Sencha]

If I extrapolate thoughts #1, #3, #4 then in theory it could be argued that we are not evolving into Godhood, but that we are already connected to Godhood. Whether that means we are in effect Gods, or that the Gods exist within us is an interesting consideration.

Yes, that's the ultimate point of all of this...that we can connect with our own godhood once we learn to lose the illusion of spacetime as separate from ourselves.
I oversimplified a bit for the sake of brevity.

[MistyNightWind]

Sounds like Druidry to me, afterall there is no dogma or rules in druidry. Although I've been lead to believe that a reverence for nature as well as social responsibility are fundamental in Druidry.

[Lily]

1. Matter and spirit are not separate. Spirit emanates from matter. Spirit is an emergent property of matter.

In scientific terms, energy is... but spirit... scientifically does not exist

2. My own personal experiences lead me to believe in reincarnation because the alternative scientific explanations for those experiences are somehow less satisfying than the reincarnation explanation. I am self-aware enough to realize that this opinion could be a product of my own confirmation bias.

Same as above

3. I believe that if reincarnation is real, then there is only ONE soul in the entire universe/multiverse. This soul is independent of time and can exist in the same time period in multiple places.

I'm starting to repeat myself...

4. If #3 is true, then this means that I am you and you are me. We are simply at different points on the reincarnation journey.

Goddess help

5. I believe that all life (including rocks, inanimate matter, etc.) is in the process of reincarnation into other forms.
6. I believe that if there is a god or gods, then this entity is the one soul at the end of this reincarnation journey. If the purpose of reincarnation is to learn ALL possibilities by experiencing them all, good and bad, then a being or soul that has experienced everything there is to experience would be omniscient. Omniscience is one of the definitions commonly given to divine entities.
7. If all the above assumptions are true, we are all in the process of evolving into godhood.
8. I believe that if we could all learn that we are all manifestations of the same individual, such a knowledge would vastly transform the ways we interact with each other.

You know... for an agnostic you believe a lot of stuff.

9. I believe we create our own reality with the thoughts, actions, and words we choose.

this is a very popular notion but there is a lot of evidence that we don't. It's also unfair towards those who are in a worse predicament than we are. But all this has already been discussed in the context of "The Secret".

10. I believe that the ultimate goal of Druidry (at least in the way that I practice it) is to lead us all to this knowledge.

Your knowledge? I do not remember a part where I signed up to arrive at your belief system. But that's the freedom of druidry I guess. It all souns much more deist than agnostic to me, to be honest. Good luck on your path.

[Argenta]

As much as I agree with you Lily on some points --

You know... for an agnostic you believe a lot of stuff.

-- there does not really exist a connection between agnosticism and belief. Agnosticism is an issue concerned with knowledge, or, better still, with our in/ability to gain any definite knowledge and thus choosing to remain skeptical even towards our own set of beliefs. It does not stop one from creating an elaborate belief system, but only from putting definite faith in it, or proclaiming it the ultimate or only one.

That's why point 10, as you noticed, does seem too universally worded.

For me, the biggest leap of faith is between points #2 & #3... But that just might be due to my personal religious background.

Whether all of this is or isn't druidry, I don't feel competent enough to answer.

[Coreylee]

1. Matter and spirit are not separate. Spirit emanates from matter. Spirit is an emergent property of matter.
2. My own personal experiences lead me to believe in reincarnation because the alternative scientific explanations for those experiences are somehow less satisfying than the reincarnation explanation. I am self-aware enough to realize that this opinion could be a product of my own confirmation bias.
3. I believe that if reincarnation is real, then there is only ONE soul in the entire universe/multiverse. This soul is independent of time and can exist in the same time period in multiple places.
4. If #3 is true, then this means that I am you and you are me. We are simply at different points on the reincarnation journey.
5. I believe that all life (including rocks, inanimate matter, etc.) is in the process of reincarnation into other forms.
6. I believe that if there is a god or gods, then this entity is the one soul at the end of this reincarnation journey. If the purpose of reincarnation is to learn ALL possibilities by experiencing them all, good and bad, then a being or soul that has experienced everything there is to experience would be omniscient. Omniscience is one of the definitions commonly given to divine entities.
7. If all the above assumptions are true, we are all in the process of evolving into godhood.
8. I believe that if we could all learn that we are all manifestations of the same individual, such a knowledge would vastly transform the ways we interact with each other.
9. I believe we create our own reality with the thoughts, actions, and words we choose.
10. I believe that the ultimate goal of Druidry (at least in the way that I practice it) is to lead us all to this knowledge.

Interesting thoughts.
If I extrapolate thoughts #1, #3, #4 then in theory it could be argued that we are not evolving into Godhood, but that we are already connected to Godhood. Whether that means we are in effect Gods, or that the Gods exist within us is an interesting consideration.

A lot of this tallies quite strongly with my understanding of Taosim.

Blessings
Frog

This is also what Crowley stated in Thelema. That we are already gods, or at the very least contain gods within us.

[Aemilius]

Hello, Sencha, and all!

You, and even Lily, may be interested to look into the work of one Dr. Ian Stevenson, who made deep study of reincarnation for forty years and, though cautious about making any definitive claims, his work is both thought provoking and compelling. You can easily see videos of some of his work, just Google "The Research Channel" and enter "reincarnation" in the search window, or Google "Dr. Ian Stevenson" for more information.

“Stevenson traveled extensively to conduct field research into reincarnation and investigated cases in Africa, Alaska, Europe, India and both North and South America, logging around 55,000 miles a year between 1966 and 1971. He reported that the children he studied usually started to speak of their supposed past lives between the ages of two and four, then ceased to do so by seven or eight, with frequent mentions of having died a violent death, and what seemed to be clear memories of the manner of death. After interviewing the children, their families, and others, Stevenson would attempt to identify if there had been a living person who satisfied the various claims and descriptions collected, and who had died prior to the child's birth.Stevenson's research is associated with a 'minimalist' model of reincarnation that makes no religious claims. According to Robert Almeder, the central feature of this model is that "There is something essential to some human personalities, however we ultimately characterize it, which we cannot plausibly construe solely in terms of either brain states, or properties of brain states, or biological properties caused by the brain and, further, after biological death this non-reducible essential trait sometimes persists for some time, in some way, in some place, and for some reason or other, existing independently of the person's former brain and body. Moreover, after some time, some of these irreducible essential traits of human personality, for some reason or other, and by some mechanism or other, come to reside in other human bodies either some time during the gestation period, at birth, or shortly after birth. Stevenson believed the strongest cases he had collected in support of this model involved both testimony and physical evidence. In over 40 of these cases Stevenson gathered physical evidence relating to the often rare and unusual birthmarks and birth defects of children which he claimed matched wounds recorded in the medical or post-mortem records for the individual Stevenson identified as the past-life personality. The children in Stevenson's studies often behaved in ways he felt suggestive of a link to the previous life. These children would display emotions toward members of the previous family consistent with their claimed past life, e.g., deferring to a husband or bossing around a former younger brother or sister who by that time was actually much older than the child in question. Many of these children also displayed phillias and phobias associated to the manner of their death, with over half who described a violent death being fearful of associated devices. Many of the children also incorporated elements of their claimed previous occupation into their play, while others would act out their claimed death repeatedly.”

Strength to you all, Emile

[MiriamSPia]

Sencha,

I don't entirely agree, but most of what you present is consistent. However, there is one point of inconsistency I will point out to you.

You claim that spirit is a side effect of matter, not the other way around. I don't see how this ties into reincarnation. I might be confused as my own mind works the other way: I tried to not believe in the divine and could not do it. My belief in matter is logically rooted in the belief that matter is dense, and often nonsentient spirit. That being the case, I'm having a little trouble following how you get from:

Spirit comes from matter.
to
There is reincarnation.

As an aside. To this day I am astonished that the obvious divine order of the natural world does not strike you as evidence of the divine. You are not alone nor am I. Strange, that much of the evidence can be used to argue both sides of the case: the world, therefore God exists.

Opposition: the world. Therefore God does not exist.

Puzzling, yet fascinating.

[MiriamSPia]

Whoa, is this a dark beer or some kind of liqueur?

Agnostic means: I don't know whether or not there is a God and that is my official stand.

Personally, I think the answer to the question: Are gods the inventions of humanity? or Is there one or more God/ess/es which exist objectively.

Objectively real defined: This means that like the Sun, this exists regardless of our personal beliefs. The planet and solar system do not seem to be human inventions. Any true God/gods/Goddess, in my own view has to be objectively real.

The challenge is: how to draw a sensible and accurate conclusion about whether or not the god/s are objectively real or the inventions of human society 'as a group'?

I believe the answer is important. I believe this was what Moses was partly getting at when he attacked a lot of Egyptian stuff, because they just said: gods are us; we invent gods. Moses said, "Funny that's not what my God told me. My God told me that God is objectively real and that you Egyptians are not only wrong but are perpetuating an entire culture based on this crucial mistake."

Is Ceridwen an actual goddess or simply personification of the Moon? I think it makes a difference. I'm sure not everyone agrees.

I always feel that if God/ess/es is/are there objectively then it is a dreadful but possibly understandable mistake to not believe in them. Have you tried not believing in water? Where did your doubt really get you? [we did this in philosophy training]. I also honestly feel that if there are no gods/is no God but I believe in He/She/It/Them - well, then I feel rather embarrassed, like a sort of 'throw back' to the ancient world. Its worse than signing the wrong date on your check by mistake. Even so, I am very puzzled at how easily certainty comes and goes. I do believe in an objectively real supreme sentient divine being. I hope I'm right, and feel embarrassed if I'm not.

[MiriamSPia]

One other thing. Developmentally, children go through a phase of psychological development where the idea of time that precedes their own lives and death are both new ideas which float around in funny ways.

I think that in some cases, what seems to be reincarnation in the mind's way of discovering the power to connect with time related ideas that go beyond one's own lifespan, and how to deny the reality of death while/by controlling how one's own consciousness thinks about events that took place at other times.

I think sometimes kids hit on some information that is very transcendent of self but other times it is developmental - that's why by age 7 people don't find it as much.

Food for thought.

[Aemilius]

Interesting discussion.

I would just like to clarify that I did not write the italicized portion of my post (Dr. Ian Stevenson), which is in quotation marks, it is purely informational (from another web site). It is not being presented as any form of proof, but only as an item of interest, in deciding for oneself whether or not reincarnation makes sense, as this is one of those endlessly debatable areas of spirituality, the outcome of which is predictably, and invariably, inconclusive.

Strength to you all, Emile

[Edwin]

The pursuit of Wisdom.

If I look at Druidic belief from an historical point of view, Druids, Bards and Ovates are the court system. Druids being the lawyers, Ovates being the judges and Bards being the witness or in the modern court, the person that writes everything down, the dictagrapher. (not sure what they are called) Merlin being the most famous but he was 'Someones Druid' or 'Someones Lawyer'. Prince Arthur in the case of Merlin but the element was, all people of influence 'Had a Druid'.

If I look at Druidry from a mythological perspective, they are Earth based mages and healers. Doctors.
Culture sees them as Earth wardens.

I am inclined to support the OP in the pursuit of wisdom but where I separate is, the sharing of it. Not as a measure of greed but as one of neccessity. We all must determine for ourselves what is what, including Druidry. All I can say is, over 20 years ago when I was searching for spiritual answers, the only place I found peace was in the Gods of the Druids. When I spoke to a Druid Goddess ( I dont want to call it prayer but it can be seen as such) I was no longer lost. I never subscribe to a belief system because it was written that I must. Maybe I'm not a Druid as a result. Because of what I saw as the 'learn as you go' and more important, 'learn or burn' concepts in Druidry, it is what I chose. Makes for horrible community but from a spiritual perspective, its freedom.