Honouring the Ancestors and the Descendants.

[cursuswalker]

(cross-post to Caer Abred and Druidry.org)

The issue of reburial of ancient human remains brings into sharp focus an issue particular to Druidic Naturalism: how to strike a balance between honouring the Ancestors and the Descendants.

From this perspective both do not now exist. They are both encoded within our genes, as remnants in the case of the former, and as potential in the case of the latter, but they have no consciousness and cannot actually contribute to the debate.

It is therefore for the living, as those in the neck of the genetic hourglass, to decide on what should be done. I would argue that the Ancestors have no rights beyond their will, written or unwritten and explicit or implicit, as enacted by those who knew them. Once they pass from living memory we should not feel the need to follow their wishes any more. This is why:
Both we and the Descendants can learn from what they leave behind. What is more the Descendants can potentially learn more than we will from their remains, whether biological or in the form of artifacts. Therefore what right have we to allow those to be destroyed when they can be preserved?

Does this mean we no longer honour the Ancestors? No. We honour them precisely by learning from them as silent witnesses. But their wishes as regards their actual remains cannot be respected if we are to learn about them, and to ensure that the Descendants can learn even more about them.

[Corwen]

We can infer some of their wishes. Also we should think long and hard about how we treat their remains as they are sacred objects, the remnants of a life, and so how we treat them symbolically reflects and impacts upon our view of all human and other than human life, past present or future.

[DJ Droood]

I think there can be a balance struck...when I saw Lindow Man at the Britsh Museum a number of years ago, he was in a glass cabinet in a room, iirc, displayed like the other artifacts and swords and things. It seemed to me that the museum had lost sight of the fact that it was a real human corpse they were dealing with. Perhaps a special area, subdued and respectful, where people could go to study or even just pay their respects, would be more appropriate.

[cursuswalker]

(cross-post to Caer Abred and Druidry.org)

I think there can be a balance struck...when I saw Lindow Man at the Britsh Museum a number of years ago, he was in a glass cabinet in a room, iirc, displayed like the other artifacts and swords and things. It seemed to me that the museum had lost sight of the fact that it was a real human corpse they were dealing with. Perhaps a special area, subdued and respectful, where people could go to study or even just pay their respects, would be more appropriate.

Now THAT is a good idea.

It is notable that in Egypt this is exactly how mummies are displayed.

[Corwen]

I think that should be best practise. Near me is a Roman museum which has remains of two Saxons who died later and were buried on the land (one of whom was buried there on purpose and another who unluckily seems to have been killed when part of the building collapsed). One of these bodies is complete and in a case with their grave goods. It isn't in a special area, which IMO it should be, but the other remains, of the accident victim, are treated really badly. Just the skull is displayed, I guess the rest of him is in a box somewhere, and the display is dehumanising. With no central register or requirement to register bones of Pagans (different rules apply for Christian remains ), or legal requirement to display human remains respectfully this type of situation seems likely to continue all across the country for the forseeable future, despite the best efforts of groups like Honouring the Ancient Dead.

[wolf560]

We can infer some of their wishes.

...when I saw Lindow Man at the Britsh Museum... Perhaps a special area, subdued and respectful...

...this type of situation seems likely to continue all across the country for the forseeable future, despite the best efforts of groups like Honouring the Ancient Dead.

Hello All....

From what I can tell, the "Ancients" believed in honoring their dead by presenting them in places where they could be publicly seen and venerated.

Perhaps we should do what they wanted in the way in which they intended.
Rather than applying our standards and beliefs to those from before...
Perhaps only then can we say that his sacrifice lives on in posterity.

Something to consider; what DID the Ancients actually believe a "Proper Burial"?

Newgrange (Brugh na'Boyne); "The Cult of the Dead"



Lindow Man
http://cillpiorra.homestead.com/Boudicca.html

Lindow man was almost certainly a ritual sacrifice; he was strangled, hit on the head, and had his throat cut, in quick order, then surrendered to the bog. This pattern fits the "three-fold" death referred to in medieval Irish tales.

The theory offered by Ross and Robins is that Suetonius chose his battle site carefully that it was one of the great sacred sites possibly Vernemeton somewhere around the place where Watling Street and the Fosse Way cross.Their theory revolves around the idea that Lindow man was an Irish prince.They find evidence that not only was he a sacrifice but a willing sacrifice

For Newgrange, the remains were separated and often times the skulls were on display in the burial mound supposedly. Burying them in the manner of discovery may be an option, or perhaps once again something respectful (and not in a box on a shelf of a museum).

[DJ Droood]

From what I can tell, the "Ancients" believed in honoring their dead by presenting them in places where they could be publicly seen and venerated..

One of my earliest memories, when I was maybe 5, is standing in the living room of my recently deceased grandfather in the middle of the night, holding a glass of milk and looking at his moonlit corpse in his open casket..he had just been waked in his house, and we had slept over..the old days, eh? (now that I think about it, I'm not sure why they didn't close the lid at bedtime)
I'm not sure that he would have wanted the casket touring the museums of the world, though.

[Donata]

As I see it, when we no longer respect the dead,and fail to see them as human beings like ourselves, it makes it easier for us to also objectify living human beings of other races, religions, nationalities.

When we honor the Ancestors, we honor ourselves as well. We carry forward their blood and all that they were as we share their DNA from ancient times. Study of DNA now shows that there really was an 'original couple' from Africa whose DNA is present in all humans today. We truly are all related.

BB
Donata

[wolf560]

From what I can tell, the "Ancients" believed in honoring their dead by presenting them in places where they could be publicly seen and venerated..

I'm not sure that he would have wanted the casket touring the museums of the world, though.

LOL..!!!
I'm sure either....

[Huathe]

Cursuswalker,

I agree with your thoughts on Lindow Man. His remains should be treated with respect and given some dignity. I am not saying his remains cannot be displayed or studied. In my opinion that in itself is a great honor. I would be greatly pleased if my remains got dug up a couple of thousand years from now and was studied to show that future culture how I lived, etc. But a body should never be degraded to just a mere inanimate object. It once was alive and the person should be respected. Even in death.

Donata,

I have read of the " Mitochondrial Eve " you speak of. Pretty cool stuff.