God did not create Universe: Hawking

[DJ Droood]

In simpler terms the Big Bang happened because it had to and not because a Deity willed it to happen. But don't fret ... there still is the question of what put all the mass there in the first place.... 'Deity' still has a place in this consciousness of ours..!!!

I am willing to compromise in my stance and allow "god" and "deity" into my lexicon as euphemisms for my ignorance of almost everything. (I simply can't worship my ignorance, however..although I am in awe of it)

[wolf560]

[Dendrias]

'Deity' still has a place in this consciousness of ours..!!!

What's still puzzling to me is the question, why anyone should possibly ask for "a deity" in physics. Hawkings saying something about "God" is like a German tennis ex-star talking about condoms to the pope. (And he wanted to!)

I am willing to compromise in my stance and allow "god" and "deity" into my lexicon as euphemisms for my ignorance of almost everything.

I would, DJ Droood, surely support You in that, and Augustine would as well. At least I think it was him who would. But I've got the impression, that talking about deity and talking about physical laws is like comparing apples and pears in matters of how green they are - it doesn't matter. Well, in my pov. A creationist would think different. A creationist - that's a fine question for him, not for ... scientists or the like.

Or should it?

[wolf560]

'Deity' still has a place in this consciousness of ours..!!!

What's still puzzling to me is the question, why anyone should possibly ask for "a deity" in physics.?

I am a firm believer in Physics as well as Meta-Physics, I can sit down in my couch and read about the Universe as easily as about the Celts or a good novel.

I think that anything can be shown to have a relationship in the physical laws and at the same time I can just as easily feel the pull from beyond the Veil.

Modern Physics can explain everything to me except one thing; where did all this matter come from to begin with? Yes to the Big Bang, Yes to Evolution, Yes to Law of Gravity, etc. But what (or who) caused it all to come into being in the first place. My Christian friends don't mind my take on things since I leave the possibility for "Deity". I just don't believe that any Deity has charted the course of my life. I think it watches (sometimes with amusement) as I plod along with my life.

I guess another question would be.... If "Deity" is a factor, is "Deity" something that existed prior to the "Big Bang" or because of it?

[Dendrias]

Sorry, I missed half of my thought, last night.

Why I cited You, wolf560, was because if big bang, evolution and christmas presents might not have their cause in god's will or are happening by prescription in his book, then still a person can have feelings/impressions/experience/conversation with a god. Physical laws might be untouched, but still "in our consciousness" there might be gods. Big banging might be fine without a god, but still someone can hear to your prayers or be present during rituals - and it does not have to be the banger.

That's what I forgot, last night.

[wolf560]

No worries..!!!

I have long had to discuss this with many of my non-Pagan friends who are a bit more "wrapped up in the Deity thing". They insist that God (as in Genesis) must come before all others and so precedes everything.

They are usually quite stumped when I simply say "You may be right, but who are you to say that God did not actually create everything INCLUDING the plan of the Big Bang and the resultant physical laws of the universe."

At that point they shut up, possibly because I have acquiesced to their notion of their Deity. Also possibly because they cannot come out and say they will not allow for their Deity to change its mind either perhaps (LOL).

In either case, my only goal has been reached; I have gotten them to consider that there may be a "grey middle truth" between a Pagan belief and a Christian one. This same conversation (sub. argument) has been overheard between all kinds of groups of various "believers" including Pagan Heathen or otherwise. Everyone wants to be "right" and sometimes cannot allow other opinions to flourish I suppose.

[echoe]

Brand new here, starting off with a big bang. LOL I'm loving this topic. I'd like to add some food for thought here. Hawking speaks of God with a capital letter as if he does indeed believe in God. He talks about invoking God into the scheme of things.

Something I've been long frustrated with is the necessity of people in general to believe in this awe, impossible feats, that only gods could commit. Jesus walking on water for instance is a HUGE hit in the United States, yet when I lived in France, and the Catholic bible was read (still) in Latin, there was no walking on water scene. (I can picture editors in the cutting room: "Cut that from the movie.") Jesus walked BY the water. The translator chose a word (an accurate one, however not a well-chosen one as the latin word carries several different meanings: by, from, of, on) and instead of walking on the edge of the water, he suddenly walked on the water. That changed the whole meaning and gave us a "miracle" that only Jesus Christ could perform. I've questioned many people and asked them why this belief was so needed? I firmly believe that Jesus (a man, and not a god) did exist, but his whole message was that we are all human, we all have paths to improve our lives and to connect with God (I've always hated the concept of a sole God as well, so many conundrums in the bible) and to better ourselves all while helping humans. To put Jesus or any worshipped deity in the category of miraculous, kind of puts we mere humans in the category of never-gonna-achieve-what-they-achieved, and thus leads many down the path of "why try?"

Okay, I do have a point, so please bear with me. After reading and re-reading Hawking's works, and listening to his interviews, I think the guy is merely trying to debunk the 'miracle" crap. The stuff where we're all supposed to bow down in awe to the guy with the biggest stick and thus we-must-obey-him-because-he-must-have-the-cell-phone-number-of-God. I think (if I'm understanding Hawking correctly, and lord knows I've certainly not talked to him in person in order to know for sure) the guy is just trying to unravel some of the myths that people get stuck in. Albert Einstein is his idol, and Einstein sure believed in God. Newton on the other hand, took the easy way out and decided that if he couldn't explain it, he'd give some crappy story about how God must have done it. Not that God/s didn't, just that Newton wasn't man enough to say, hey, this is something I just don't completely understand yet.

Does that make sense? I kinda like the fact that Jesus was first and foremost a guy. Anything that he accomplished is certainly something I can accomplish, and I think that Jesus was trying to tell people just that. He kept talking about how no one was better than the other, you don't have to pay to get in the afterlife, and you don't have to hide in caves if you're sick. You don't get to cast a stone because no one is without error somewhere in their lives. I think Hawking is trying to say that same thing. He's saying, stop mystifying the whole God thing, and let's get down to understanding things better. Hawking doesn't want things to be overwhelming to people. He's just trying to help them see that it's not something to hide from in fear or to give up on by saying, "oh well, only God can know the answer, humans will never know."

I say (not Hawking) that the Gods are involved in all of it, but that they delight in we mere humans understanding their creations and ourselves to the extent that true and deep appreciation of all of it can ensue.

Hawking just gets tired of the crap where things are conveniently hidden in a "god" wrapper: Do not unwrap until the end of all creation. He's taking the power away from (mostly the Catholic church, which deserves it to the full extent) organized religion to do that shock and awe crap.

[Huathe]

Echo,

Even though I do believe in the miracles of Jesus and his divinity as the Son of God, I do also believe he was also very much of a man. He was humble and forgiving of others and made salvation much more attainable. Under the older Jewish system, salvation and atonement was a labourous process requiring animal sacrifice, etc, and the temple authorities had a pronounced " I am better than you " attitude. They would have killed sinners for their transgressions, according to Mosaic Law, even though they had sinned themselves. Jesus realized we all are human and not divine and opened the door of understanding for all of us. To make God and Heaven more attainable for all of us.

Also, proof that Jesus was also a man is that he shed blood and showed many of the same physical weaknesses that men show. He was divinity in human form!

[echoe]

ah... you know... I hadn't thought of that in druidic terms. A divinity appearing in human or animal form. Funny! (ironic funny, but not in a bad way) I just always thought about Jesus in the Catholic terms where they declared he wasn't human, but that he was Son of God therefore God. You've made me think again! Thank you! I'd been raised Catholic, but was agnostic throughout most of my Catholic school learnings. Indeed most of that group of students is no longer Catholic and I find that very funny indeed.

So tell me, in that sense (exploring, not challenging. ) do each of us represent a part of divinity within us? Or is that only for certain beings?