The Atheist Druid

[Heddwen]

Hi, as a Pagan believer, I undestand where you're coming from. Having worked in a coven for 10 years or so the spirit of the group did acquire a dynamic of its own. I think egregore is possibly too strong a word for us, definitely we developed a 'sixth sense' but this may be our strong connection and understanding of each other. I know that some groups have names for their group entities. If I'm right Janet Farrar wrote about this in 'The Witches Bible', I'd need to check.
Your Burroughs quote reminds me of Crowleys 'do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law' I'm not sure that this is a license to do as you please because of the karmic rebound factor. (I know that Starhawk has challenged the Rule of Threefold return) I guess that we are discussing 'high magic' and it's compatibility with OBOD druidry.One is a Magical system, the other a philosophical/spiritual/religious path.
Far be it for me to define druidry, I see it as a path that dovetails easily with religion, spirituality and atheism. Nature reverence is the common denominator and OBOD is unique in its inclusivity. However, for myself, I am happy to combine honouring the deities and stewarding the planet using my past experience and knowledge and learning further as I walk along the neverending Wheel.

[day_2k]

"Nothing is true, all is permited"

hmm, I think this phrase can be taken in a number of ways, the way that I always chose to understand this is that as nothing is true,(the void) all 'posibilites' are permitted (ie anything can be manifested from the 'quantum soup') this is the way that the books of Pete Carroll would lead me to understand it anyway! it seems a lot less negative this way, sometimes Chaos Magic gets a bad rep, probably due to its lack of inherent moral code.

Crowley's "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" might fall more in line with your interpretation but again with this its not a case of 'if you can get away with it' but I believe/hope that the people who live by this see it more as a "know thyself" staement rather than a "raise hell "comment. didnt this influence the Wiccan rede "An it harm none, do what thou wilt"? (I guess they needed to clarify the morality ?? )

Not meaing to be contradictory, just didnt want first impressions of me in the to be that im the sort of person that runs around doing anything that doesnt get me pasta based meal on my head

Thank you for your input on the "balance" aspect of life and beliefs, it is not somethign that is always emphasised in spiritual paths but definitely important to keep in mind

D

[Heddwen]

No prob, thanks for injecting a bit of life into the board!It seems so quiet. Anyway, I like your interpretation of Burroughs/Crowley. The latter did live a fairly hedonistic lifestyle, maybe this was the justification It could have been his excuse to let rip!
I know very little about Chaos Magic but would like to learn more, could you recommend anything? Shame about the negative connotations, this is the same with other Paths. There is no concept of sin as such, the moralistic and ethical side is self regulating so why(oh why!) do we insist in applying and adapting the moral standards from mainstream religion to our lifestyles?...just a few thoughts...

[DJ Droood]

There is no concept of sin as such, the moralistic and ethical side is self regulating so why(oh why!) do we insist in applying and adapting the moral standards from mainstream religion to our lifestyles?...just a few thoughts...

I was reading a little about Roman sects last night, (with a cts, not x), and there are many similarities between sects like the Stoics and Epicureans, and modern Druidry. They were intellectual and philosophical systems, rather than religious. Words like `dogma`and `doctrine` were words these sects used, and not in a negative way...an educated person was expected to know the doctrine and dogma of the main sects, and to eventually adopt one...assume the dogma from their sect. Dogma included ideas, theories, rules of behaviour, moral precepts, etc. that took hundreds of years to develop and were often literally engraved in stone.

Druidry is a relatively new sect that hasn`t had enought time to develop solid `doctrine`and `dogma`, or at least not enough time for the good ideas to really take root...and this is seen as some sort of point of strength, instead of simply a sign of an immature system.

Because of the lack of `dogma`, druidry is a vacuum that has lots of room for the hyphentated druids to store the dogma from their others sects in, and nobody has a bases to object.

Freedom!

[Arth Frown]

Thank you for your comments and honesty DJ and Wolf, there is a lot to consider! it is a fascinating subject for me and would I would love to hear a non-atheists take on this (would they look here or should I post the relevant question elsewhere?) as well any other thoughts that anyone might have it is one of my favorite things to hear people tell me about their particular take on established ideas and how they manifest.

Please keep them coming I have a lot to learn

Being a polytheist I don't see gods as thought form, but very much real entities. Thought form is very much a Terry Prachett Small Gods stuff. Logically that could only be Gods of the mind.
For me magic is asking for Gods to change something and making an offering. That said I don't ask for much as the saying goes " don't ask the gods for what you can do yourself". I suppose we don't ask the Gods for much any more because we are unlikely to suffer from droughts, famine or as many illness these days.

[stvltvs]

I doubt if there are many "pure" athiests who have rejected any and all forms of superstitious thought...we have all grown up in a culture that is steeped in it, after all. Perhaps the "atheist" simply recognizes it as superstitious thought and admits that his/her superstitious ideations are groundless..but maybe fun, like Santa...(instead of a manifestation of God's wrath against homosexuals, or whatever it is that religious people seem to focus on).

FWIW, as far as I know, I hold no superstitious beliefs. No lucky charms, no pre-game rituals, nothing. If anyone can suggest one that I may have overlooked, that would be appreciated.

Regarding magic, the operating principle seems to be belief. Just believing a future event will happen can cause it to happen, if the event depends on human behavior. I think there's a lot of power in shaping and channeling the unconscious parts of our minds.

Or sometimes magic is just coincidence combined with pareidolia.

[day_2k]

Morality and freedom.. a whole forum thread on its own I think! it is great that there are no/less objections to Druids being able to "add on" other belief systems, although this idea of adding on, feels a bit uncomfortable to me, as it sounds like it implies that Druidry needs to be an addition rather than just happily standing on its own.

The idea that a lot of people seem to see it is a path rather than a religion may be an explanation as to why it is so able to merge with other faiths etc

Of course I am new to this path so I’m not entirely sure I have my facts correct here.. please feel free to inform me if I have misunderstood

Sure, I am happy to recommend books on Chaos Magic, my favourites are

Liber Null and Psychonaut & Liber kaos- Peter Carroll
Prime Chaos - Phile Hine
Chaotopia by my name sake Dave Lee

The Pete Carroll books can be a bit hard going with the maths and physics sections at the beginning that seem to act as a kind of initiation, but he is the man if you really wanna get deep in to it.

But I always suggest this site: http://www.grant-morrison.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=195&Itemid=83 as a starting place, as Grant Morrison is very erm.. maybe salient is the best word about the sigil magic he discuss and is a nice lead in to the idea of chaos magic without any pretention.

On the Crowley theme , the way I see it is he was a bit like a scientist in a way, he did all this crazy stuff and then wrote about it (a lot!) so I don’t need to do these potentially damaging and potentially illegal things to know the results!

Heddwen as a believer do you mind me asking if you think/feel/know that the deities you work with are "real"?
feel free to ignore this if that is too personal to post on such a public board or you just don’t want to talk about it

I'm so glad to have found my way here and to finally have some intelligent people to discuss matters of spirituality and the occult with thank (the)
god(s)/nothing/thought forms/santa

D

[DJ Droood]

Morality and freedom.. a whole forum thread on its own I think! it is great that there are no/less objections to Druids being able to "add on" other belief systems, although this idea of adding on, feels a bit uncomfortable to me, as it sounds like it implies that Druidry needs to be an addition rather than just happily standing on its own.

I wouldn't say there are no or few objections...it is just that within OBOD in particular there is a laissez-faire
attitude, and if someone wants to say they are combining druidry with other philosophies/religions, they are being perfectly OBODian.

My personal feeling is that the hyphen indicates a lack of understanding of (or commitment to) what is on either side of it, and general ideological confussion, but who the hell am I??

The idea that a lot of people seem to see it is a path rather than a religion may be an explanation as to why it is so able to merge with other faiths etc

but of course, it is *not* able to merge with other faiths, or more accurately, other faiths are not able to merge with druidry, and if you talk to people who actually understand these faiths and take them seriously (perhaps a priest) I bet they would agree. Just because you say you are a Muslim-Druid doesn't make it so, unless your own imagination is where the buck stops, and if so, rock on! (and join the OBOD)

[day_2k]

Just because you say you are a Muslim-Druid doesn't make it so, unless your own imagination is where the buck stops, and if so, rock on! (and join the OBOD)

\m/ rocking on as we speak! (just one of the reasons why I found myself here! ) At the end of the day, everything has to pass through our perception (read mind/memory) in order for us to process it as understanding. So nothing 'out there' is any more "real" than anything 'in here' *points to head* . Memory is falible, eyes can be decieved, so who are we to say that our imagination is not precisely where that buck should stop

[DJ Droood]

Memory is falible, eyes can be decieved, so who are we to say that our imagination is not precisely where that buck should stop

\m/

[Heddwen]

Heddwen as a believer do you mind me asking if you think/feel/know that the deities you work with are "real"?
feel free to ignore this if that is too personal to post on such a public board or you just don’t want to talk about it

Thanks for the refs, I'll get my teeth into that lot when I have time. No I don't mind at all. My beliefs encompass experiencing deities as real individual forms mainly polytheistic Goddesses that are aspects of the one Goddess form and Her consort, the horned God. I trained and worked in an Eclectic Dianic/Reclaiming/Faerie Tradition type coven and later with a large Goddess based group which used the teachings of Alice Bailey, Starhawk and other Wiccans of the modern Reclaiming Feminist Tradition. This was all very female orientated (I won't go into the politics) and I felt that I needed to touch base and honour the Deities of this Land (UK) where I live, also something was missing...the male aspect...there needed to be balance and doing the OBOD course facilitated this for me, along with meeting others at Gatherings and camps, where the gender mix is 50:50. It adds the 'missing' dynamic and feels more complete. I still use techniques and exercises from other traditions, such as embodiement to experience deity directly within myself and also experience Her as the living Land, Mother Earth and all that is contained within Her. The shapes and signs of the countryside. Hope this makes sense

[day_2k]

Thank you for this Heddwen, it is very interesting to understand how people approach their partiular path(s), I agree that a balance seems important to me, it seems often to be the case (maybe as a Christianity over reaction) that the female deities are more comonly the centre of attention for a lot of "newer" pagan paths. Maybe it is the case that the Male deities arejust harded to connect with by their nature. As I can say that any connections I have experienced through various workings have always been female (if any 'sex' at all)

I have always thought it interesting how there seems to so many different names for deities that seem to, at the core of it, share very similar qualities. it makes sense that different races/times have different names and the interesting thing for me would be to see a giant table of correspondences of deities of the different pantheons (And maybe saints of Christianity too) does anyone know if this has been done, or where I can find a good one?

(Oh wouldn’t it be lovely to see this listed in some kind of historical and geographical order in graphical form... maybe an interactive map that changes over time showing religious/spiritual influence as it moves around the world.. hehe and the moon on a stick please! )

[DJ Droood]

I have always thought it interesting how there seems to so many different names for deities that seem to, at the core of it, share very similar qualities.

non existence?

btw, for you folks who believe "reality" is all in your head, and whatever you imagine is true, why do you bother comparing and contrasting what you think is real with other people? Is it because you are not really sure everything you imagine is true and you are testing yourself? Or are other people/animals/things like characters & props in your play...sort of like being on the holodeck of the Enterprise...and you have to interact with them to make your inner reality more interesting...?

Not a confrontational question, I'm just always been curious as to why subjectivists are so interested in what *others* believe or think, when their own ideas and perceptions are the only reality that matter to them, or the Ultimate Truth....even more curious that subjectivists would even bother expressing what they think is real, since everything past the eyebrows is all their own creation anyway. Why not just "imagine" that everyone already knows what you are going to say and agrees with you (or beats you with a stick, or whatever your inner reality dictates)?

If I was a subjectivist, I would just sit in the gardens of my tropical estate and drink beer and not answer the phone.

[Heddwen]

Good point but I guess that throws up the wider question i.e. why are we debating/discussing anything on a public internet site when we already have preconceived ideas regarding (non)spirituality/religion. Can we change someone elses views? nope, doubtful and wouldn't want to. Could we learn from each other? well I have, being here has opened my eyes to my druid colleagues philosophies, stance and ways of working. I merely expressed my views as a response, there is always something new to learn and as a student of 'life' The Truth is part of my druidic quest and part of knowing myself. This is not to say that I'm not able to sift the gems from the mud. I do try to remain objective and practise a fair bit of skeptical soul searching.

[day_2k]

Wow that made me really get my thoughts in order!

hmm, Maybe I do not have all the ideas I need yet to be able to exist entirely in my mind! and besides just because "You know, I know this steak doesn't exist" ( - name the movie ) doesn’t mean I want to exist in isolation, in fact maybe, if i did subscribe to the idea that there are no other separate intelligences "out there", (and I’m really not that arrogant) this is all a way of me questioning myself to find out my own ultimate truth.. a bit like R.A.W's idea of the omniscient computer in the "Magic Room" - see Prometheus Rising http://www.rawilsonfans.com/downloads/prometheus.pdf around page 220-221.

Plus not only that maybe we just want to find like-minded people so that we can belong, after all, Maslow will tell us this is maybe more important than the knowledge itself!

If I was a subjectivist, I would just sit in the gardens of my tropical estate and drink beer and not answer the phone.

yeah, I know.. I must be a very rubbish (or masochistic) one

And Heddwen, I am hoping to learn here by asking questions, and by sharing experiences I am trying to give something back.. if I can?!

D

[DJ Droood]

Good point but I guess that throws up the wider question i.e. why are we debating/discussing anything on a public internet site when we already have preconceived ideas regarding (non)spirituality/religion. Can we change someone elses views? nope, doubtful and wouldn't want to. Could we learn from each other? well I have, being here has opened my eyes to my druid colleagues philosophies, stance and ways of working. I merely expressed my views as a response, there is always something new to learn and as a student of 'life' The Truth is part of my druidic quest and part of knowing myself. This is not to say that I'm not able to sift the gems from the mud. I do try to remain objective and practise a fair bit of skeptical soul searching.

Well, I'm not a subjectivist..I think there is a reality and truth outside of myself and beyond what I can conjure up with my limited resources...I am always willing and eager to hear other ideas, have new experiences, compare my experiences and ideas with others and see where we have common ground...and I am always willing to abandon ideas that turn out to be fantasies, or untruths, or perhaps classify them as "poetic reality".

In the context of the subject of this thread, I will gladly be willing to abandon my atheism when I receive some sort of evidence or experience, or even a convincing argument, that reveals the Truth of the gods to me...it just hasn't happened yet, but maybe if I keep reading enought threads on the DHP, eh?

So for the athiest, it is not really a matter of having a preconceived idea of the gods, but simply rejecting the theist's pre-conceived ideas....in exactly the same way the Christian rejects the idea of Ganesha being able to clear away all of life's obstacles...we just go a little further in our rejection of untruths...or at least untruths in our shared reality...there need not be the same rules in our private imaginations. The only time I *really* care is when the "my God hates homosexuals"-type subjectivists want to impose their fantasies on the rest of us....which seems to be a constant threat (they always seem to be running for public office in my country)....otherwise it wouldn't really matter.

[wolf560]

I would like to think that we are talking/discussing/debating about all of these things in an effort to come to a better understanding of what it is that we spend so much time and effort with in our lives.

Specifically it is the notion that (perhaps) we are not 100% sure of what it is that we are doing and that (maybe) there is some room for 'tweaking'.

The 'Great Dialectic' proposes that when two disparate beliefs come in contact with each other and a dialogue ensues that a third belief may eventually result that both sides find reasonable.

I am on this board in an effort to 'tweak' my beliefs and seek refinement in my life

[DJ Droood]

I would like to think that we are talking/discussing/debating about all of these things in an effort to come to a better understanding of what it is that we spend so much time and effort with in our lives.

I am all for that...I've learned lots of things about druidry and spirituality on this board, and have changed my opinions (sometimes back and forth!) numerous times.

I just find the "we all create our own reality" argument a show-stopper. If there is no shared reality, or common ground, and "all opinions are equal" relativism is the ground rule, I think it is like spinning your tires in mud instead of a discussion.

And in a discussion like this, it is somewhat absurd...if you are a relativist that believes in god (s), and you accept my position that there is no god as equally valid, doesn't that instantly lead to an unresolvable paradox? ( perhaps resolved in the mind of the theist as "everyhing is possible in god".)

[day_2k]

I agree it is a bit of a mute point and does take things a bit far, how did this all start ? I think it might have been me suggestiong that things existing in the imagination can feel just as real as any "non-sensus reality" (as Genesis P-Orridge would call it) and might well cause the same effects magically.

I agree we stop this potentally cyclic discussions on "subjectivist" thinking and get back to the main subject of the thread

Thank you for indulging me though!

[DJ Droood]

I agree it is a bit of a mute point and does take things a bit far, how did this all start ? I think it might have been me suggestiong that things existing in the imagination can feel just as real as any "non-sensus reality" (as Genesis P-Orridge would call it) and might well cause the same effects magically.

fair enough...I know next to nothing about magic, high or otherwise, so you may be correct.

I agree we stop this potentally cyclic discussions on "subjectivist" thinking and get back to the main subject of the thread

There is no god(s).