Numerology?

[Karl]

I've braved starting a thread in the Skeptical Druid, please go easy on me!

My thoughts on Numerology;

Numbers are slightly more than just quantities, i.e. '2' is one plus another one, but it is also a duality, a mirror, a multiple, etc. '3' is not only 2+1 but also a basis for all triangular patterns and well, I need not preach to druids about the number three! Four has a bit more symmetry than three, and is more closely related to 2, there are rational numbers, irrational ones, sequences that infer connections, etc, the list goes on...

So, I can accept that meanings can be infered by numbers, and also that combinations of numbers can give more advanced meanings. But what these meanings might be is not what I'm getting at.

In almost all Numerology I can find there is the use of what is known as the 'Fadic' method to 'boil down' big numbers into smaller numbers. For example your 'Birth Number' can be obtained by adding your date of birth digits... 04-07-1980 > 0+4+0+7+1+9+8+0 = 29 > 2+9 = 11 > 1+1 = 2 Therefore the birth number is '2'

This takes two assumptions which I can't get my head around; firstly that Numerology is entirely dependent on the Gregorian Calendar, and secondly that it is also reliant on a base ten numeric system. I don't have a problem with base ten, but there is nothing particularly special about it, and its rather ungainly and ugly to my mind. Base twelve might have been better (being divisible equally into quarters, thirds, sixths, etc.) but again, there are no reasons I can see that going from a date measured in days, months and years can be added together in such a way. Days are days, and months are months, I rather see it like adding together apples and bags of apples.

If anyone here uses Numerology I would be interested in your thoughts. I am not seeking to dismiss it, I just don't understand...

Cheers,
K~

[DaRC]

Ah well there's two things I know about Numerology:

1) When Douglas Adams put the answer to the Meaning of Life the Universe and Everything (in the Hitchhikers Guide to the Universe) at 42 (I think) he was having a Numerological joke. Most people think that the number 42 was meaningless and laugh because of that but I think he'd read Graves' "The White Goddess" and knew that Graves posited the tertragrammaton for God, or YHWH for yahweh, at 42. My copy of it is somewhere in my loft at the moment and I can't remember how he calculated it.

2) I think of it as Abrahamic religious bunkum'

[Merlyn]

Hi Karl,
My wife uses numerology, and from what I see and take note of it works well for her. It is like any oracle, it will work well for those who find it does.
Like anything, numbers are expressions for the math, just as letters of the alphabet are expressions. They are "boiled down" from the origins as we know them today, and if one wants to seek and understand numerology, I would figure it will require the deeper understandings. Just like using Runes, (one will need to resonate with each and every rune for a year or so before the full expression of that oracle can be realized) we would then do the same with numbers.

Tarot, Ogham, tea leaves, zodiac and all are much the same in method to success. It all depends on how each of us is "internally harmonized" or "wired" so to speak. What works well for one person may seem like total bunk to another, however as Drui we know better, and simply respect what works for others is because we are all unique.

That's my take on it.

Merlyn

[Lily]

this being the skeptical druid I must agree with all three of you....

the system cannot "work" for the obvious reasons... based on the decimal system.... everyone would be the same as 10% of the rest of the population at face value and so on....

but then again from Merlyn's post - any oracular system seen as a method of tapping into the un/subconscious, "works" for those who use it as a tool.
even I dabble in cards (I can't for my life get my head around memorizing the meanings, so it is always an awkward, book-in-hand exercise) - but they are usually helpful in telling us what we know anway

[Merlyn]

Hi Lily and all,
I find it important to look at what an oracle points to as "what road I am on" rather than "what is to come".
The tangents, possible outcomes and eventual reality is always based on direction, Past-(behind us) present-(the here and now point I am at) and future (where the tangent leads)
We always have a choice if we can see clearly.

Numerology boils things down, like the three drops from the cauldron. It is an oracle which as Karl mentions, simplifies. In some ways this may seem "over-simple".
However in the ways of an oracle to clear the view, make things easy to see, then that is the goal.

The numbers which surround us then come into view, like our birth date, however much more.
Our numbers are many. Our address, our phone number, our Social Security number, The important dates, weddings, funerals, things we plan, Random numbers like the odometer reading, and on I can go.

Here is a story to relate to in numerology that I link to how a computer may actually be a predictor or possibly from another view, synchronistic.
I had a customer come in and his name was Daemon, and he wanted a custom paint job done on his motorcycle. In this paint job he wanted inverted crosses, a she-devil in a martini glass and three dice, all showing the number six. Being a Druid I didn't mind or ask questions, however I began to laugh as I typed the ticket in the computer. He asked what was so funny and I told him his invoice number as 666. "Suits me fine" he said and found it kind of interesting. I shook it off as possibly coincidence, kind of thought my computer was in sync with me so much that possibly it "just happened".....
However, later in the year another customer came in and had lost a friend at the race track. They raced dirt bikes and his buddy crashed and died, so he wanted his buddies race number on his helmet, the number was 724. I wasn't laughing this time as I typed the invoice and the number of that invoice was 724...

How is this numerology? some might ask. What I have learned is that many numbers affect us, surrounding us all the time. A computer is of course all numbers, binary.
I then began to realize the connections. Silicon, the very "sands of time" are indeed the very thing which a computer uses to compute. So with this more connections come. Those of Crystal and just about every stone.

From there I began to realize how almost every if not every oracle is interconnected. We are the unique part of the equation. All other things are moving in an interconnected universe of time. The tangents are open ended, 0-1 all numbers between are points in this progression. (Thus base 10) or 1-0. Each road (Tangent) is 1 at one end and 0 at the other. The progressions are also expressed in planets, much like the Mayan calendar, an interconnected set of cycles. How we see them and our choice is what matters.
Language is expressed by sound, analogue vibrations, so again even it, as complex like a computer, is based on a very simple reality.

Such is my story for numerology.

[Karl]

Hmm, interesting, thanks guys.

So what you're saying is that the system may make assuptions and have flaws, but its more a case that;

a) It is a method of breaking complex realities down into more understandable blocks so we can analyse the interactions, like cards, triads, etc

b) On the assumption that there is a spiritual Otherworld which can communicate with our reality it is a language through which this communication can be attempted. As with cards, ouiji boards, divination, etc.

Similar to spoken languages which allow understanding, yet are far from perfect, we use anyway because its what we've got.

K

[Merlyn]

Yes, that's about it.
I find that our use of numbers, in so many ways, brings us all closer to numerology than we might be aware of (as I gave example in my story). We have gained certain control over numbers, to a great extent, in a scientific way.... however... they can speak to us just as well. Perhaps the gods are checking to see if we are listening..

[DaRC]

Ah this is where my more flippant answer comes back to bite me
When you first said numerology my gut reaction was chaos theory - which is where Merlyn Has headed into - rather than the historical Abrahamic view.

Many mathematicians believe the universe can be broken down into numbers. I remember John Michael Greer discussing the use of Ogham as musical notes and a discussion around the mathematics of music. Just as Einstein said that he knew an equation was right, such as E=mc2, because it would have a simple beauty so the beauty in the world is often based around beautiful mathematics. In this respect it's why Mandelbrot's breakthrough in chaos theory was so important; it finally meant that we could model nature in a mathematical sense. So in this greater respect numerology is a way of predicting nature; thus an oracular system.

[Karl]

I wonder what the response would be if I posted the same question on a Numerology Forum?!

Ah, fractals, that's more like it! There are few things that can't be allegorised into a spiral.

[Merlyn]

AAhhh,... just how closely are we intimate with numbers?
If a birth date can predict our character, know our traits, then like the mathematics and formulas, how closely are our bodies affected by time?
A recent discovery:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-17059498

Health is in many ways tied to rhythm. "Music sooths the savage beast" and in a lot of ways we have been learning how the universe within is alive.

[Lily]

a) It is a method of breaking complex realities down into more understandable blocks so we can analyse the interactions, like cards, triads, etc

b) On the assumption that there is a spiritual Otherworld which can communicate with our reality it is a language through which this communication can be attempted. As with cards, ouiji boards, divination, etc.
K

oh, I'd have to object to b). If you understood MY post that way I did not mean it. I meant purely any sub-un-or barely conscious associations our brains would make.

[DJ Droood]

I think numerology, and cards and runes and astrology,ogham, etc. can be powerful tools of introspection that can unlock doors in your psyche or shake loose memories, and help form new associations....using them is a form of focused meditation, and something you can share with others in a folk psychology session.

[Karl]

Lily, I hadn't infered b) from your post, merely from my own conjecture.

And thanks for the link Merlyn, very interesting - until someone points it out you don't realise how obvious it is! Our bodies run in completely different ways depending on the time of day, compare your energy levels at morning and bedtime, let alone anything else!

[Merlyn]

I figure we also have numbers in many other things, like money.
We consider that something is worth so much and it equates to a number value.

It would seem that numbers are a factor of just about every measurement also.
Distance, time, labor, temperature, number of rings in a tree trunk; to name a few..

The list of things not affected by or able to be seen in numerology is a shorter list, if anything at all.

[Lily]

Merlyn, it's YOU ascribing meanings to the things you count. Like money or receipts. Just because we count stuff doesn't imbue them with meaning.

[Merlyn]

Well... not just me..
I didn't invent the system
Would a birth date (as it is) exist if we didn't have a calendar?

So... likewise, numerology would not "be" if we didn't have a number system...

Numerologists assign meanings to things like our address, birth date, just about everything with a number. An address is something that is a "counting system"(goes up as we drive along the road), just like a calendar is a counting of days. So....

[wyeuro]

begad, i do agree about base twelve and also the gregorian calendar. i've been wrestling with base twelve, for numerological reasons for some time, dealing with the psychology, the metaphysics and practicalities of a timetable based on a solar year of 12 months, but accommodating a lunar month. the numerological impact of a gregorian calendar day can then be acknowledged and the calendar date of one's own choosing foregrounded. i feel numerologically violated by the gregorian calendar (can't imagine how a buddhist, hindu, shintoist, yoruba priest, voudun practitioner or tjupurka person might feel about it - can't be comfy imo), and also by base ten, which binds numeracy to my greedy graspy fingers instead of to the embedded politics of divide and share suggested by a base 12 numeracy. we'd be a more civilised world imo.

[DaRC]

But the world actually runs on base 16 hexadecimal;
the language of computers and even then there's no agreement on their 8 bit character encodings.

I don't think number bases violate any civilisation of the world, apart from creating a common mathematical language for communication. Similarly to the way Bach and the Equal Temperament created a common scale for musicians what they do is allow people an agreed method for communcating ideas - which can only be a good thing.

[Merlyn]

Well... we can be skeptical...

A look at numerology:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numerology
This IMO is a good over-all look at the roots of numerology and a brief summation of how it evolved. As an oracle and divination system it of course ends up being part of the pagan sphere even though numerology has scientific roots and even claimed to be valid from several cultures.
http://www.numerology.com/
Then....... this is what kind of fluffy bunny thing it has become in some ways, like anything, subject to exploitation and abuse. "What does my name mean? etc, all feeding into the natural insecurity of human nature.
http://www.facade.com/store/numerology/
The list of web sites on numerology fills pages when searched for, and as one might expect the books on numerology are many.

Unlike many "pagan" ways, numerology seems to be an "open to all" kind of thing. Anyone can pick it up and with a few quick chapters be an "expert"

I however suggest that like any oracle, one needs to seek the roots and our own interconnections and be a good study, be inclined and have this particular talent before numerology will bear fruit. (Those who think a web site will accurately tell us who we are by our name or number will no doubt be fooled) Of these things that we see, the base we find (base 10-12-18 etc.) will be one of the individual things we discover to be true to our own internal universe when we seek to become able in numerology.

Numbers and Druidry:
In our own OBOD way, we touch on numbers, and their meanings to Druidry. And we of course have the most Irish of numbers..3 we see in the Awen, the clover, and well... just about everything.

What I am suggesting is that numbers can be objective and they can also be subjective. (This might be more where Lily is going in suggesting that we assign numbers to things)

Merlyn, it's YOU ascribing meanings to the things you count. Like money or receipts. Just because we count stuff doesn't imbue them with meaning.

If anyone here uses Numerology I would be interested in your thoughts. I am not seeking to dismiss it, I just don't understand...

And I think the way Drui look at numbers, and what they mean is in some ways opposite of how numerology looks at numbers. (Being from the inside out, rather than from the outside in) Thus why one might seek to understand..

Merlyn

[wyeuro]

I don't think number bases violate any civilisation of the world, apart from creating a common mathematical language for communication. Similarly to the way Bach and the Equal Temperament created a common scale for musicians what they do is allow people an agreed method for communcating ideas - which can only be a good thing.

no, not the number bases - the gregorian calendar. imo, that somebody elses' religious figure was born on the noughteenth of nought, noughteen noughty nought and all things spring from there is heavy-handed propaganda to any heavily oppressed other country religion or culture being perforce westernised, as so much of the world currently is. i daresay it'll go out of fashion soon, and become an option - like choosing a font. that's how i'm using it now- for when i have to commune with the earthlings.

and arguably, there being twelve notes in the scale, not eight, the eight-note scale with flats and sharps is a bit of a musical strait jacket, like an apple-pied bed. can't have a good stretch out, as it were. it doesn't suit every culture's folk music. just imagine the paradigm shift in music if all twelve notes were treated as equals instead of there being seven white and five less important black keys on a piano. imagine the difference in the psychological effect.