Our Celtic Ancestors

[wolf560]

A great many things can be attributed to our great Celtic Ancestors; iron working and the spread of blacksmithing techniques, peaceful interaction between vastly different tribes, just to name a few.

The original Celtic Tribes are now long gone; caught between Roman expansionism, migrating Huns and Goths, and their very isolationist natures we still seek to learn about them. Some tribes such as the Helvetti and the Iceni live on in stories and books and the very names of the land around them.

Of all the background civilization that "grew up in Europe" how is it that the Celtic beliefs have become the backbone of Modern Paganry? Any bookstore will show evidence of Pagan studies and the amount of Celtic-based books outweighs nearly all other series combined.

I study all things Celtic; Druidry specifically and so I am glad that this is easy to find.
I am wondering however WHY it is so much easier to find than say Egyptian or Persian or Greco-Roman spirituality?

[Dendrias]

One try and one question:

I'm no savant on these themes, but it might be a question of zeitgeist or fashion. Isn't hermetic magic at least influenced or let's say cloaked in Egyptian/Ptolemaean symbols? Astrid here of the board wants to "work" with Egyptian pantheon or things, as far as I understood. And she's from up north. Freemasonry, as far as I can remember some books, traces it's origins to Egypt. That's a lot of Egypt for Europe. It might have been the fashion of old times. And in the end let's not forget, that mainstream culture is mainly influenced by near-eastern religion, while I haven't seen many books on Celtic influenced spirituality 20 years before. (But that's for Germany only, and for a 14 year old - of course I did have a close look into the spirituality book shelf, but "witches" has been a hot topic, then. Not "wicca", but "witches"!)

Can I ask You, as I'm no savant in this matter, either, how Celtic modern Celtic spirituality is? What is "Celtic belief", if not that there is an Otherworld people get caught in when going round mounts? Is that part of "Celtic spirituality"? What is Celtic in modern Celtic spirituality that hasn't been part of ... I dunno ... ceremonial magic, common herbal medicine, new age spirituality or things? Did "our great ancestors" meditate over ogham or rune sticks? Did they connect to the spirit of the land?

I'm not critically asking, I just want to get deeper into it.
But first thing that popped into my head when reading Your post was: "How Celtic is modern Celtic spirituality?"

[wolf560]

Certain parts of 'Modern Celtic Spirituality" have been influenced by everything from Thelemic and Alchemistic arts to siple mistranslations (or worse) that were prevalent in the 18th and 19th century.

One such issue that some scholars have is the "Celtic Tree Months" as written down by Robert Graves in the White Goddess. They are mere invention and do not actually correspond to anything Celtic. For a better "Celtic Month Name" the Coligny Calendar should probably be used, something that not only was actually used during the 1st century AD but was also written in the dominant language of the time (Gaulish).

The Barddas is another "invention" which crept in during these times and although completely the work of one man's inventive mind inspired the Gorsedd to come back into being. Iolo Mannwyg (Edsard Williams is his real name) was a stonecutter that bleached white hundreds of papers from the 6th-12th century in order to get enough of the right paper to write upon himself. We have no idea what was originally written on those papers but the Barddas is written there now.

Enough negativity;

On the positive side we see a burst of Deities male and female that have been remembered by all of the Pagans worldwide and their remembrance is what Paganry was all about. The open number of people that are expressing feelings towards the "Olde Gods" seems to be increasing exponentially over the past century. Stories of people singing songs about Taranis, Epona, Ogmios, etc while dancing around a large fire seem to be more and more accepted. Rituals and gatherings that many people have helped to build and feed is just about the best of times imaginable. The basic spirituality was to gather together for several celebrations a year and all give thanks or spend a moment in silent remembrance or contribute your portion so the greater whole could all have a good time.

In that fashion "Celtic Spirituality" remains unchanged....

But is it all that different from the nearby "Germanic Spirituality" or "Nordic Spirituality"?
Germanic and Nordic customs are very very similar, some of the practices and perhaps even the Deities themselves are similar enough to at least be called 'cousins'.

The line can perhaps be drawn between Celtic (or European) Spirituality and African/ Egyptian/ Persian spirituality...

...or can it..????

[Dendrias]

The basic spirituality was to gather together for several celebrations a year and all give thanks or spend a moment in silent remembrance or contribute your portion so the greater whole could all have a good time.
In that fashion "Celtic Spirituality" remains unchanged...

Does it? How certain is the "gather for several celebrations ... give thanks or spend a moment in silent remembrance"-thing?
As far as I know, Roman or Greek religion, e.g., used gatherings, but not according to the quarters of the year. They didn't contribute their portion to the greater whole, their spirituality was quite different from what paganry seems to aim at, nowadays. Their gathering had offerings of some kind in it, sheep, pigs, cattle, sometimes hundreds of cattles (hecatombe), sometimes more than one animal (suovetaurilia), sometimes just wine - but the offering was the central part, and most of the time, it was to console a god or a goddess, to honour it or just to get something in reward. It was done by priests mostly, with a very fixed set rituals and prayers.
This kind of "spirituality" is quite unthinkable, in some circles.

I don't know about Celtic rituals, but I am keen to learn more about it (and the sources, of course). But I suspect a change in "Celtic spirituality" from 100 c.e. until now, a quite natural one.

What was Your original question, again? Oh yes: Why Celtic spirituality? What do You think about zeitgeist/fashion?

[wolf560]

Zeitgeist/ Fashion - "The Spirit of the Times"...

I am reluctant usually to embrace huge leaps away from what (seemingly) is a Celtic perspective to the way things worked.

Example; The Celts (the Irish specifically) seemed to be enamoured of the number Three and used it a great many things they found important. Using that idea as a base to work from; how can there be any series or set of deciding metaphysical factors (elements for example) that does not lend itself to this same number? Land-Sea-Sky therefore feel "right" to me.... Air-Earth-Fire-Water-Spirit seem to either be two too many or one short since it is not a series of Three's...

In a similar fashion however I want to be able to see what and why they did what they do so it can be translated into modern terms.

Example; The Celts often threw a great many valuable objects into rivers, lakes, and other bodies of water. It appears that they are giving away their largesse without the possibility of it coming back to them in any way possible. I do this to this day by offering valuables to bodies of water on every one of the eight wheels of the year. I typically use silver objects since I cannot afford to be throwing gold into the rivers all the time... (LOL)


I do believe that the Celts would have continued to change as the seasons, years, decades, and millenia unfolded. Therefore the idea of a "ZeitGeist improvement to Celtic Spirituality" was not only inevitable but should definitely be taken into account.

[Dendrias]

I see. I can follow Your thoughts.

Celts, or "Celts" have changed, indeed. When I look at "Celtic" countries or regions, like Ireland, Brittany or France in general, I see a whole lot of catholicism. Brittany is renowned for catholic festivals, calvaires and saints - and for the deep, inherent catholic faith. And for the loss of Celtic language.

Before coming back to Your original question, could I ask You, not to throw huge amounts of unorganic things into bodies of water? That's pollution on a small and spiritual scale. (Just kidding! I'm giving away thought, thanks, candy or poems on sticks!)

With zeitgeist/fashion I meant Your original question: "Why are things Celtic easier to find than Persian, Egyptian, classic spirituality?" Perhaps, it's just a fashion. Like Irish stepdancing musicals - which has luckily ebbed away. A few years from now, wicca has been in the fashion-focus, angels are always, but have high-times, from time to time. "The secret" has been beginning to flood German book shops, for a year or so. That's fashion. As well? What do You think?

[wolf560]

... throw huge amounts of unorganic things into bodies of water?

With zeitgeist/fashion I meant Your original question: "Why are things Celtic easier to find than Persian, Egyptian, classic spirituality?"?

Hello Dendrias..!!

My "offerings" are usually silver rings that I have worn for at least a year. It is my offering to the place of ritual for the spirit of the land. I want them to know that I am willing to sacrifice of myself something valuable and that I promise to protect it if the need arises. I hope that silver does not do much to pollute the land (as opposed to burying copper for example) but I will research this further. If I must use gold then so be it....

You are probably right about the "Zeitgeist" in reference to my question.

Writers tend to flock together, building on the enthusiasm of other successful writers and books. It could simply be a wave of metaphysical books and authors all riding the same crest of success. For the early 1900's, it was Egyptian magic and mysticism at the forefront with a great many books (both reputable and not). They all seemed to spring out of nowhere as well flooding the shelves of bookstands everywhere. Their presence still helps (and hinders) modern practitioners of Egyptian Sacred Magic to this day.

[DJ Droood]

For the early 1900's, it was Egyptian magic and mysticism at the forefront with a great many books (both reputable and not). They all seemed to spring out of nowhere as well flooding the shelves of bookstands everywhere.

They were probably inspired by the great archeological finds of that era that sparked the public's imagination....give the people what they want....I think "Celtic" has been a very romantic and comforting notion for many westerners, and it probably ebbs and flows in popularity....Celtic graphics are very distinctive...great for tattoos and book covers and jewelry...the music is pretty...the stories are trippy..."Celtic" taps into our cultural nostalgia and melancholy...(pehaps not all that different from the Christian yearning for the "family values" of the 1950's...a better, less complicated time.)

I think "Celtic spirituality" is a relatively new invention..the cosmic convergence of the outgrowth of 60's neo-paganism and the internet and some well placed publishers like Llewellyn Worldwide.

[Dendrias]

Oh, no, wolf560! Please don't stop doing what You're doing! I really was just kidding. To be honest, I offered a ring bought from a museum-shop (must've been pewter or something) to a city, once: The Spirit of the Place was of suburbian kind to me, so I just left the ring on a wall next to a bus station - and never looked again! So, anything will be fine! I didn't want to change Your attitude.

The difference between the Egyptian fashion in magic and the Celtic fashion in spirituality is imho that between high/priestly culture and the noble savage. While ceremonial magic needed something with costumes, pantheon, history and complex symbols uniting to written novels to be learnt by heart, today's focus seems to be different. Sometimes, it doesn't seem to be important whether a "spiritual tradition" is voiced by "a sitting bull" or "a fionn of the leather-whip", as long as it has some "you're one with nature" in it. Celts seem, sometimes, to be the American Indians of Europe - the noble savage with a far more deeper insight into the whole cosmos than Pythagoras could ever have got. Zeitgeist need a sacrifice of connection to nature, these days. I'm not criticising, just wondering, whether the Celtic in "Celtic" is Celtic, or just ... a kind of fashion to be served by "another silver-ravenwolf". A Celtic disguise for ideas that have been lurking about for about some time. A language of form for ideas to be put in, so that they can be understood by zeitgeists kinder, so to say.

[wolf560]

Oh, no, wolf560! Please don't stop doing what You're doing! I really was just kidding. To be honest, I offered a ring bought from a museum-shop (must've been pewter or something) to a city, once: The Spirit of the Place was of suburbian kind to me, so I just left the ring on a wall next to a bus station - and never looked again! So, anything will be fine! I didn't want to change Your attitude.

I had such a feeling of peace when I was at a ski resort last month that I adorned a Christmas Tree on one of the landings with two silver rings and a bronze and silver necklace. Although I am sure that someone else found the adornments, it was really meant as a show of respect and gratitude for what the place had brought me; Laughter, Love, and a little bit of Luxury..!!! Hopefully one of the resort staff found them and liked them.

[Dendrias]

Wow! You have been adorned like a christmas tree, before!
To me, it was freedom, concentration on myself and autonomy to some kind the suburb of Leed had given to me. Well, these and druidry.
Do You think, our ancestors gave donations out of the same thankfulness? Out of the same motives? With the same aims?
For Roman religion the "do ut des" seems to have been the main motif, which doesn't point to thankfulness, but to fulfilling a contract. And I'm not sure, whether there could have been an emotional connection to a god, which is necessary for being thankful.

[wolf560]

From what I can tell about everything I've read; the Celtic tribes, Gaulic tribes, and Germanic tribes all gave freely to land and the spirits of the land around them.

I'd like to think that was what they were doing but who really knows?

[DJ Droood]

I'd like to think that was what they were doing but who really knows?

That is an interesting point...how much of our Druidry, or Celtic spirituality is a "recontexting" of history and historical texts to conform with our current "zeitgeist"?(German certainly has a lot of good words that can sum up complex ideas in a couple of syllables.)

My grandmother was born in NA, but in such a culturally isolated pocket that she didn't have to learn English until she was a teen, so she could get work...and she was third generation...if you asked her what "Celtic spirituality" was, I'm not sure she would know what "Celtic" was, but she would probably talk about Presbyterianism, which was what her Scottish ancestors had been for a few hundred years. From what I can tell, the spirit of that spirituality was dour, humourless, guilt-ridden, superstitious and fearful (like modern reconstructionism..haha...j/k), which is probably why my fun-loving granny (cards on Sunday!!) jumped ship to the cutting-edge and radical "United Protestant Church". I doubt if she or any of her ancestors going back quite a stretch would have known or thought anything about "giving back to the land spirits".

[Delian]

I think the reason Celtic has become so fashionable is because people want to connect to their roots. I live in Canada, have celtic ancestry (french and scottish) but I'm not Native American (well, I do have some native americans ancestors but they're so far away I don't count them much), my roots lie in Europe not here. I think the Native Americans would rightfully be insulted if I were to get involved into their stuff when I'm not one of them, which is already happening. To me this was definitively the reason I got into celtic stuff.

[Huathe]

I think the reason Celtic has become so fashionable is because people want to connect to their roots. I live in Canada, have celtic ancestry (french and scottish) but I'm not Native American (well, I do have some native americans ancestors but they're so far away I don't count them much), my roots lie in Europe not here. I think the Native Americans would rightfully be insulted if I were to get involved into their stuff when I'm not one of them, which is already happening. To me this was definitively the reason I got into celtic stuff.

I have both Celtic and Native American ancestry. Irish is strong in both of my parents families and my great grandmother on my fathers side is Cherokee. There is also a little Cherokee on my mothers side too. So I guess I can genuinely study and reviere both lineages of my ancestral past.

James

[Dendrias]

Well, yes, so it seems.

As a European, I'm always very interested in seeing people from other continents being so interested in their ancestors. Lineage seems to be a massive preoccupation in America. Maybe, there are two or three people in Germany who trace their lineage back to 1/6 Prussian, 2/5 Bavarian and the other half Eastphalian and Nethersaxonian equally, with a slight hint of Danish - and calculate it like this. I guess, there are more families to say, that grandfather came from Kaliningrad, grandmother grew up in the the Hessian mountains ... and that's it. But I can't know for sure.

When thinking about ancestry from the other world, Europe, that is, how important is the time scale? The more orgininal, the better? Are people interested in their British ancestors, in their Färöer ancestors, or do You think that "Celtic" is something to be found best, when lineage gets diluted through the centuries? I don't expect Americans of Italian ancestry to draw their stuff from the Rome of 44 B.C. more than I do, but from ... well, Italy as it is - of course, I don't know for sure. How important is the time scale?

And what about the British, Irish, Scottish or Welsh? They are living in their ancestors' land and are the direct outcome of the change of times. Their lifestyle is, what their ancestors' lifestyle has evolved into. They are where their roots are - where could the interest in the particular culture/spirituality from that particular time come from?
I'm not sure, whether in the whole of France the consciousness of being "Celtic" is so visible. In Burgundy or southern France I haven't seen a lot of things to be traced back to Celtic times (except Roman excavations at Alesia, perhaps). How comes? What do You think?

[Huathe]

Dendrias,

I think the reason people in the US is so interested in their ancestry is so mixed up from all the immigrations here from other parts of the world. Outside of the " pure " Native Americans our lineages are mixed up like a bunch of mutt dogs and it takes some sorting and research to get it straight. A few of us may be lucky enough to have " purebred " lines but I think that is more of an exception than the rule. I have Irish and Cherokee with a trace of Dutch in my bloodline.

James

[Dendrias]

I thought so.
So it's about a loss.
But why does someone want to connect to one part of his lineage, only? Why is the main focus on a "pure heritage" (one ancestry solely), when most of the people could concentrate on being a mixture of the best (... )properties?

If that's too far off-topic, do the DJ and ignore my questions.

[Huathe]

Dendrias,

I have an interest in both my Irish and Cherokee ancestry. Both are wonderful cultures!

[DaRC]

how is it that the Celtic beliefs have become the backbone of Modern Paganry?

I think you'd need to look back to the Romantic movement of the 19th Century and the Celtic Twilight. Part of it was a rebellion against the formal Classical (i.e. Greco-Roman) education that was prevalent at the time that inspired poets and artists to create a new school. This is the time when translations (particularly in French but also in English) of traditional folklore became popular.

Another part would have been reactionary against the supremacy of the English culture disseminated via the British Empire. This would have come at a time when across the modern Celtic cultures their language particularly was under persecution by schools determined to enforce a single language (English in Cornwall, Ireland, Wales and Scotland, French in Brittany) and the people there wanted to retain their historical identity.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_Revival

But is it all that different from the nearby "Germanic Spirituality" or "Nordic Spirituality"?

That is a very tricky question and one that can be quite contentious. Personally I'm a Heathen-Druid and so walking the path between the two. Obviously linguistically they are separate and this indicates nuance differences. At an abstract level we can say we are all human and that human spirituality contains many similarities - but it is the nuance differences that often divide us.

Looking at the various early laws, such as Brehon Law and Ine's laws, of the two cultures there are very definite similarities. The peoples of the Northern tribes (Celtic, Germanic, Finnish and Slavic) certainly had much interaction via trade, warfare and marriage which meant there would have been large amounts of cross-cultural fertilisation. However, in the modern world, for political reasons much of that fertilisation was not recognised but it is now e.g. archaeologists now recognise Insular culture, that produces the Book of Kells, as most likely being a product of both Celtic and Anglo-Saxon monks.

In my spiritual exploration of the two I would suggest that the differences I have noticed is embodied within the Vanir and the Aesir of the Germanic mythology. The Vanir, IMHO, are an echo of the Celtic deities who have a greater focus on the Natural and Otherworld whilst the Aesir are much more focussed on the human world. Within the Germanic worldview there appears to be a greater conflict between the Human and the Natural world. Whilst in the Celtic worldview it seems there is a greater focus on the Natural world and an acceptance that people are a part of Nature.