Druidry & Military Service?

[Ade Sundog]

Just wondering...
(This may be for a different thread by the way)

Did the people that are in the Forces become Druids while they were already serving?
Or were they Druids before they joined ?

This is just out of interesty .

Cheerz

[odinsson]

Just wondering...
Did the people that are in the Forces become Druids while they were already serving?
Or were they Druids before they joined ?

This is just out of interesty .

Cheerz

Hi, I became a Pagan after I had left the service. Reason being I knew nothing of it whilst I was still in - I only discovered Drudry once I was out.

Odinsson
/|\

[Fianait]

Just wondering...
(This may be for a different thread by the way)

Did the people that are in the Forces become Druids while they were already serving?
Or were they Druids before they joined ?

This is just out of interesty .

Cheerz

I found Paganism and was Wiccan well before I joined the service; I started studying Druidry while on active duty.

[Zeb]

I myself found Paganism and druidry well before I ever considered joining the military. Though i don't agree with what all the military is doing or stands for it was one of the few options open for me at that point in time.

[Fiach MacMara]

I discovered Druidry after I was already in the military.

[Jarvisfamily4]

Several thoughts, as a 'military wife' -

1) What If: the early Druids were peacemakers because they were educated, culturally aware from their multi-cultural gatherings and university, and thus were more likely to be the ones to clear up misunderstandings and be able to negotiate. If they weren't able to negotiate, is it really recorded that they didn't pick up their sword and fight alongside their clansmen? Or is it only that their peacemaking efforts were recorded as noteworthy.

2) Absurd as it seems, sometimes you have to fight for peace. If you let the attackers succeed, they will continue to attack, continue to oppress, until the people are so impovrished they revolt, and the bloodshed goes on for generations. OR, you can fight them outright, hopefully win, and establish peace here and now.

3) Off topic, but needs to be addressed: to the person who said:

I believe our secret service(s) do(es) better jobs in preventing terrorists actions (in fact they did do that a couple of times that the citizens know of) than our soldiers messing up the lives of mostly innocent Afghans.

I will agree that the Secret service is doing an amazing job of thwarting attacks that civilians are completely unaware of. However I have to vheamently disagree with your condescending remark about our soldiers. Unless you or your loved one has been over there, you really do not know any more about what they are doing than the average American knows what the SS is doing or facing. The media does not advertize the good that is being done by amazing military men and women. The media does not advertize the horrors, atrocities and fears that these native people have lived in - - a life we can not even imagine, a life too horrible for our minds to fathom. The media does not personify the enemy these soldiers are facing, but once you have seen the suicide bomber trying to get into the gates of your compound, it becomes personal.
My husband was over there for only six weeks. In fear for his life 24 hours a day. He was fixing the planes that went in and saved the ground soliders who were under fire. The soldiers called his planes their 'guradian angels' because when there was no hope at all, the planes would come in and they knew they might live. My husband, the airplane piolets, and the ground soldiers were not over there 'messing up' anyone's lives. They were over there protecting the innocent lives from the insurgents who would kill man, woman, and child without a second thought (suicide bombers in the shopping markets!). Lets keep it in perspective.


Sorry, I know it was off topic, but it had to be said. I will not have the sacrifices my husband, my family, and all military families made, be discredited. Thanks for understanding.

[Corvin]

As far as I know swords as a ritual tool were only invented later and are mainly used by Wiccans.

When you say "later", you'll have to specify much later. Wicca took the use of the sword from renaissance or even later ritual magic, probably originating with the key of solomon, which probably is around the 14th century. (...!)

For those interested... Knights Templar also used their swords as crosses from what i understand.

[Celi]

To study of Warfare yields study of the Science of Warfare, and the Art of Leadership.

If those two are not in your Path then, I would say not seeking them is wise.

For some of us, however, where the river takes us - to avoid the call would be like trying to reverse the flow of a great river.

I have served in the Military for 18 years in the Militia, 2 of those in a war, and will leave again soon for the 3rd time, (lets hope this completes my circle!)

I will say this - for every ugly thing I have seen man do, I have seen twice as much beauty so, at least it is balanced.

One thing I will say: war will end when Man does.

I'll leave with this little piece of Military Lore:
The name "Headquarters" comes from the acts of the groups that followed the Warriors. These Men and Women did various specialties for the Leader of the Army. They typically carried blunt maces. These maces, when used carefully, could quarter a man's skull with one blow, ensuring they were dead. This evolved as a matter of practicality - the Warriors could concentrate their energy on defeating the enemy to the ground, (conserving energy), and served as a fair act of mercy to the dying to end their suffering. Today this term is used to define the group of people that typically travel with the Commander of a Military Unit.


~

[Alan C]

Morning
I am a serving member of the British Army with 15 years service. In all my years I have never met another druid, are there any out there?

We are lucky to be living in a place where we are given the choice of spiritual freedom. I would like to think that this freedom has come with no cost but it has not. I firmly do not believe that the druid path is incompatible with my service. Corwen’s points about the fact that warfare has no place in (reading between the lines) a civilised, modern, spiritual existence is quite correct. However until all weapons are laid to rest there will always be someone try to exploit and abuse others for a profit of sorts. Granted the militaries work in the Middle East and Asia is difficult to justify and I would hate to be given the job of doing so.

I believe that the western world is currently somewhat paranoid, and we may have lost sight of where the threat to our shores end and our profit holdings start. Just the cynic in me, but that said I have and will continue to do my job to the best of my ability. I have seen real improvement in Iraq the people on the ground now have a hope for their future and that of their children. I would like to think that I have helped in that forward movement.

In my work the situations I am placed in are most often rock hard! place. I would like to believe that my faith has given me the chance to input what little help and compassion I can. I am not alone in this we are not a bunch of killers; we have an unfortunately, necessary job to do.
At the end of my days in the old folk’s home I shall have little left but memories and photographs I want them to be worthwhile. I want to be able to say that I did my bit to help. We are all very good at broad brush statements about how everything in the world is wrong but until you inject work to change what is broken you have done nothing.
War is wrong! A statement of fact what can I do about that? Well I can shout all day long nothing will change, but stepping up to the plate placing myself in harms way to maybe help save one or two in the process then I have achieved something of worth. Shant stop my shouting or my campaigning, nor hoping that we shall as a race see the folly of our own endeavours.

[jjdecay]

I am in full agreement with the above comment.
For me,it hits the nail on the head.

Nice one Alan.

(Where in Paderborn are you,I was in in Athlone).

/|\

[Marmaduke]

I am a member of the United States Marine Corps. And for those druid types out there... we exists. I have even personally met more than a handful. I see no problem with the two.

[wilde]

Hello Alan!

I am a new member of the British Royal Navy, and I discovered Druidry after I made the decision to join, but before actually joining. It did not make me change my mind about serving, but it does make me see my job in a different perspective. The Royal Navy participates in many humanitarian excersises, and providing protection against piracy and terrorism.

I see no incompatibility there.

Daniel /|\

[White Star]

I think the people who object to the existance of the armed forces and the policies of the governments that deploy them ( whether rightly or wrongly ) would maybe object even more to the policies and government of the evil that would rule by force if left unchecked.
In the West we have more freedom than we know, what if druidry, paganism in all its forms, and any religion that did not comply with the views of the state were to be become illegal ?and failure to comply brought swift harsh punishment ?
It is good to question, put forward your point of view, and be able to disagree with your government.
But what if those rights were taken away ? Someone once said " I may not agree with what you say, but I would defend to the death your right to say it."

Terry

[Corwen]

I think the people who object to the existance of the armed forces and the policies of the governments that deploy them ( whether rightly or wrongly ) would maybe object even more to the policies and government of the evil that would rule by force if left unchecked.
In the West we have more freedom than we know, what if druidry, paganism in all its forms, and any religion that did not comply with the views of the state were to be become illegal ?and failure to comply brought swift harsh punishment ?
It is good to question, put forward your point of view, and be able to disagree with your government.
But what if those rights were taken away ? Someone once said " I may not agree with what you say, but I would defend to the death your right to say it."

Terry

The biggest threat to our civil liberties in both the UK and USA is from our own governments, not from any outside agency. In the event of Paganism being made illegal our armed forces would doubtless help to enforce that law, rather than protect us from it.

I'm not completely against the existence of armed forces, just that they should be under UN command when operating outside their own countries. They certainly shouldn't be used aggressively in breach of UN mandates as we have seen recently. While an army is likely to be used aggressively, I wouldn't personally choose to be in it.

[SilverStorm]

Corwen,

I am curious where you got the information that if paganism was made illegal that the US military would be part of enforcing that. As an American citizen I cannot speak to what would happen in the UK but I can tell you that IF such a law were passed (which it wouldn't as it violates the Constitution) the US military would not enforce it because it is a civil matter. Unless martial law is declared the police force handles civil matters.

To the thread in general both my husband (who serves in the USAF) and I are pagans. We see no contradiction in the two. In fact I would say we probably pray for peace harder than most people do. Thank you to the others on this thread who also serve (spouses included).

[Dathi]

Greetings,

This may be if interest:
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD ... tTRDoc.pdf

Big pdf document:

CAPT Olson, Linda R. Serving the Stranger in Our Midst: Accommodating Wiccan Religious Needs Within the US Air Force. Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, OH, Air Force Institute of Technology, 2001. 66 p.

Focuses on the fact that Chaplains must accommodate the religious needs of Wiccans within the Air Force. Written to educate and assist in the formation of Chaplains' thinking and response to Wicca practitioners in the military. Provides some historical information about witchcraft, facts about current practices in Wicca (witchcraft), then looks at some of the issues faced by military members who are Wiccan, and finally provides some pastoral approaches to meeting their needs and our obligations for religious accommodation within the Air Force. Addresses pastoral issues and concerns for the Chaplains.

CFN,

Dathi

[Corwen]

Corwen,

I am curious where you got the information that if paganism was made illegal that the US military would be part of enforcing that. As an American citizen I cannot speak to what would happen in the UK but I can tell you that IF such a law were passed (which it wouldn't as it violates the Constitution) the US military would not enforce it because it is a civil matter. Unless martial law is declared the police force handles civil matters.

To the thread in general both my husband (who serves in the USAF) and I are pagans. We see no contradiction in the two. In fact I would say we probably pray for peace harder than most people do. Thank you to the others on this thread who also serve (spouses included).

I was just replying to Whitestar. History shows us that when push comes to shove armies will act as a tool of oppression in the hands of an oppressive government, in fact most dictatorships start with the army taking the reins of power. The police is the first line in oppression but where they are too few the army is usually called in. Only in exceptional cases (I can only think of Pakistan) has a standing army come to the defence of democracy when a government hs sought to dismantle it.

Of course I'm not expecting Paganism to be made illegal, that was Whitestar's hypothetical idea, but if it were or similar oppression was visited upon us I wouldn't be holding my breath for the army to come rescue me!

[Michael C. Page]

Hello All I felt I should chime in at this point.

When I was in the US Navy, my Rating/M.O.S. (job-same thing) was a “Religious Program Specialist”. Basically we were a combination of Chaplin’s secretaries, Bodyguards (Chaps are Non-Combatants), Masters of Ceremonies and, above all, Councilors. It was a job of extremes, as you can well imagine, for people seem to examine their faith system when under certain pressures. During my time in the Navy, I was actually given assignments based upon my knowledge (such as it was) of diverse belief systems. I was also called upon at regular intervals to give seminars about the various alternative spiritual paths which were represented by the Marines and Navy personnel with whom I served.

During those years, I had the honor of working with men and women of many different faith backgrounds, including those practicing Druidry and Wicca, and not to mention other indigenous spiritualities such as various Native American traditions. No matter where my duty station, my command Chaplin and the other chaplains always seemed grateful that they had someone who could help them relate to other faiths with which they were not familiar. The Chaplains I worked with also successfully petitioned the Navy to pay for my continued education in comparative religions and counseling so that I could continue to help Navy and Marine personnel of all faiths.

So as you can see, even in a Military organization, there is peacemaking.

Bright blessings - Michael

[Avariel]

Personally I see military service as incompatable with a spiritual way of life, except in the context of a defensive war like WW2. How can being prepared to kill someone you don't know just because someone somewhere else tells you to, possibly be compatable with a loving attitude to all creation?

Having served in Iraq and having killed others, (all who were definitely strangers to me), I don't think it's as simple as "spiritual = non-warrior, non-spiritual = warrior." Taking the life of another is not a simple matter of "Ok I'm going to kill now," nor is it rarely a matter of just mindlessly doing what you're told. ESPECIALLY in combat; battle is such a mash of noise, sound, instinctive action and the training you've received, as well as the emotions and intellect that you try to keep under control throughout in order to keep your friends and those who are depending on you alive. We who are soldiers, and who have served, are not mindless wardogs, to be released on the enemy slavering without thought to what we're doing. We carry the weight of death on our shoulders and the knowledge of what humans can do to one another for those who choose not to fight. Someone has to. And I think that many soldiers end up being MORE spiritual for their experiences and not less so.

Let me ask you; if you truly think that war can't possibly integrate into the life of a spiritual person, then why do we as druids have The Morrigan as a war goddess? Why pay any homage at all to the apparently base and unspiritual practice of battle? Had I not walked the battlefield, I would not be the woman I am today; I would not realize how fragile or precious life truly is, and how easily we can destroy it. But because I do not shrink from killing someone who definitely has their sights set on killing me, does that mean that I am not a spiritual person? I don't think so at all, and I think that such experiences can only lend to the spiritual walk of a person, not detract from it.

Do I like war? Do I like killing? Certaintly not. Does being spiritual and a professed killer as well mean that I may suffer sometimes, and that I've been changed irrevocably, because I'm spiritually aware of my actions and the pain that they have caused other? Do I carry the weight of what I've had to do, and what others have had to do to me?

Yes. That is why they call serving your country a "sacrifice."

[Hennie]

Feels to me like you are repeating "The Ethics of A Soldier" or some lessons given to you by your superiors.
I have never asked for someone to defend me so I can make the choice not to fight; on the contrary I have stated on all occasions where the government of my country commanded "our soldiers" to fight for "us" that they didn't do it in my name or for my sake.