What if peole stopped eating meat?

[Rynn]

Hello, I know that there has been a topic about being on a Druid path and whether its cool not to be vegetarian ect... I read through it all with great interest as I have often thought deeply about becoming a vegetarian,my question is this though. In our modern world and especially this country, we do not have many areas where animals can be wild, free to just roam, land is not free as such any more and its been that way for some time. If the farmers were not keeping them for meat, why would they? They are a fair expense so I can't imagine that they would keep them on for kindness sake. I know we have petting farms, but they only have a few animals in, not herds. So say a large number of the population became vegetarian, the sale of meat would decline, prehaps we could still sell abroad thats true, but what about those air miles? What would become of our fields with lambs and cows? If nobody was interesed in them for food, what if they dwindled so much that we hardly got to see them anymore. And if we were not here compainging for better living conditions for them before they were killed, simply because nobody wanted to eat them, how would they be treated to be sold off as meat abroad, cuts would have to be made to compensate for the cost of that maybe? I don't know that I am stating anything big here, I am certainly not saying this is fact, just some thoughts I had on the subject. What do you think, I guess there is probably never going to be a time when people don't eat meat so there is always going to be farms, and of course we have milk from cows so we need farms for that, maybe im thinking unrealistically here? Anyhow, just thought I would put the thought out there!

[CedarMist]

Well, if you consider how much food goes into just 1 cow, and how inefficient of a food it is, I think the wild animals would have plenty more natural space to roam in if everyone switched to being vegetarians. The extra land could be 're-wilded'.
I hope I understand your question??

[Rynn]

Yes thats true hadn't considered that, of course farm land could be redeveloped into places for grazing.

BB

[Badger Bob]

Certainly in the UK the rural economy would suffer badly. Meat is a pretty stable business and can be run on a small scale as well as a large one. Cereals and market gardening are very subject to the weather (a friend of mine has lost her potato crop three years running to wet weather and blight) and only really profitable on industrial scales.

[Arcanum]

Until mind control is perfected - that darn free will always gets in the way and some people will still like meat.



So it is interesting to fantasize about, but unlikely to be implemented without force...

[Lily]

Also, no milk or eggs without also eating meat. And I am sorry, but I just think if I can't occasionally add cheese, milk or eggs, ever - on the long term, there is no way for me to actually cook satisfying meals even if they are meat- and fish free. Sure I can use tofu, almond milk etc but I like the taste and I don't give that up.

A cow only gives milk if she has a calf a year or so.

Pigs can be used to recycle food waste.

Unfortunatelyl with chickens, large-scale operation isn't ethical anyway - the hens don't actually end up eaten.
They end up in the biogas tank. I was quite shocked to learn this a while ago. People just don't want to eat old laying-hens anymore. But maybe that could change.

[DJ Droood]

Meat eaters today are like 1950's smokers puffing away in the office...they think their lifestyle is perfectly natural and doesn't harm any
one...give it a couple more generations. (not the meat eaters here, though...everyone here only eats meat grown on micro- farms...not the factory stuff)

[Mountainheart]

Meat eaters today are like 1950's smokers puffing away in the office...they think their lifestyle is perfectly natural and doesn't harm any
one...give it a couple more generations. (not the meat eaters here, though...everyone here only eats meat grown on micro- farms...not the factory stuff)

Personally I think you've hit the nail on the head with the comment in brackets. We're designed to be omnivores: and as someone who wants to fit in with natural cycles as much as is possible, I don't see any reason to go against this. However, there is a huge difference between eating meat grown in a natural way on caring farms and eating growth-forced, hormone, chemical and antibiotic stuffed factory farmed animals.

Thx
David

[DJ Droood]

However, there is a huge difference between eating meat grown in a natural way on caring farms and eating growth-forced, hormone, chemical and antibiotic stuffed factory farmed animals.

When we talk about meat eating, I think it is almost a given that we are discussing the Mordor Factory Farm system...it is hard to get statistics on this from google, and it varies a bit from country to country, but I don`t think it`would be inaccurate to suggest that 98% of the meat consumed in most of our countries comes from factory beef, chicken and pigs and drift-net tuna. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_food

It isn't our natural diet to consume bacon for breakfast, chicken salad for lunch and roast beef for dinner 7 days a week....I think that is just modern (and temporary) First-World gormandizing....an oddity of the oil age.

But the gen pop is nowhere near changing their attitude...bacon is marketed as an essential condiment for every meal that every patriotic male should consume (bacon does seem to be marketed primarily to men, it seems..usually to be eaten while watching a sporting event with buddies)...if something feels/tastes good and is easy, people simply won't stop until they have to.

[Mountainheart]

However, there is a huge difference between eating meat grown in a natural way on caring farms and eating growth-forced, hormone, chemical and antibiotic stuffed factory farmed animals.

When we talk about meat eating, I think it is almost a given that we are discussing the Mordor Factory Farm system...it is hard to get statistics on this from google, and it varies a bit from country to country, but I don`t think it`would be inaccurate to suggest that 98% of the meat consumed in most of our countries comes from factory beef, chicken and pigs and drift-net tuna. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_food

It isn't our natural diet to consume bacon for breakfast, chicken salad for lunch and roast beef for dinner 7 days a week....I think that is just modern (and temporary) First-World gormandizing....an oddity of the oil age.

But the gen pop is nowhere near changing their attitude...bacon is marketed as an essential condiment for every meal that every patriotic male should consume (bacon does seem to be marketed primarily to men, it seems..usually to be eaten while watching a sporting event with buddies)...if something feels/tastes good and is easy, people simply won't stop until they have to.

Thanks: thought provoking. Made me wonder what a natural eating pattern would be. I suspect that if you go back far enough humans were probably veg and fruit grazers who interspersed this with large fresh meat feasts when they managed a decent kill and eked things out with sun-dried meat in between. So maybe in today's times it isn't so much snacking that is bad for us but the meals we have in between snacks!

[DJ Droood]

I suspect that if you go back far enough humans were probably veg and fruit grazers who interspersed this with large fresh meat feasts when they managed a decent kill and eked things out with sun-dried meat in between. So maybe in today's times it isn't so much snacking that is bad for us but the meals we have in between snacks!

Actually, I just went down an interesting google worm-hole looking up "cave man diet" and came to this critique of the Paleo-Diet from the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition:

In conclusion, it is likely that no hunter-gatherer society, regardless of the proportion of macronutrients consumed, suffered from diseases of civilization. Most wild foods lack high amounts of energy and this feature, in combination with the slow transit of food particles through the human digestive tract, would have served as a natural check to obesity and certain other diseases of civilization. Yet today, all non-Western populations appear to develop diseases of civilization if they consume Western foods and have sedentary lifestyles (24). Given these facts, in combination with the strongly plant-based diet of human ancestors, it seems prudent for modern-day humans to remember their long evolutionary heritage as anthropoid primates and heed current recommendations to increase the number and variety of fresh fruit and vegetables in their diets rather than to increase their intakes of domesticated animal fat and protein.

http://www.ajcn.org/content/71/3/665.full

I think that is the key...modern production meat is pretty high in fat...even the "lean" stuff, and loaded with, as you pointed out, hormones and antibiotics...and even the animals small "artisan" meat producers raise are pretty fatty compared to an aurach. Perhaps if they released all the cows and pigs and made us hunt them down and dress them if we wanted them, that might be an improvement?? Of course, the same fat argument could be made for our over-consumption of dairy and processed vegetable oils.

[truthseeker]

I think if people started having to dress their own meat there would be a lot less meat consumption in the world. I eat meat but personally I find it a little disgusting having to manhandle a piece of meat and then I start thinking about how that meat was once a warm, living, breathing creature. I love animals. Anyway if we're facing facts people eat more out of habit than need. We don't burn the calories our ancient ancestors did when they had to hunt and forage for their own food and eating like they did would probably make us feel like we were on rations. Generally I think their lives were more of a cycle of feast and famine and rationing.

I think the chemicals we face on a daily basis especially the ones in our food have to take a lot of the responsibility for a lot of the cancers we face. And white sugar and refined flour......? It takes a really disciplined effort to make the changes but I think one worth trying.

[Lily]

the paleo diet... although that is too meat heavy for sustaining 7 billion people, back in the stone age that is what we ate, there was plenty of space to hunt - and what our metabolisms are still tuned to - genetics hasn't caught up with culture yet....

so it would be nice if we could find a middle ground there... responsible consumption of animal products...

manhandling meat eh? I don't mind still seeing what part of the animal it is.
I'd love to have the courage to learn to hunt or slaugther so I can at least say I am not too squirmy about the meat I eat.

[truthseeker]

the paleo diet... although that is too meat heavy for sustaining 7 billion people, back in the stone age that is what we ate, there was plenty of space to hunt - and what our metabolisms are still tuned to - genetics hasn't caught up with culture yet....

so it would be nice if we could find a middle ground there... responsible consumption of animal products...

manhandling meat eh? I don't mind still seeing what part of the animal it is.
I'd love to have the courage to learn to hunt or slaugther so I can at least say I am not too squirmy about the meat I eat.

I was raised on a farm where we raised our own meat and hunted. Still for me the hardest part is the slaughter and handling of any animal, even fish. I wonder if a lot of people would feel the same way and think a little harder if they had to do it. As you say Lily eating meat is a part of our genetic makeup that's pretty tough for most to deny. Our ancestors were meat eaters and I will always be a meat eater. I too would love to have the courage to hunt my own food. Of course I would need the butcher to do the dirty work after! There are so many areas we need to improve food production of all types, veggies and all. Unfortunately it's more about cheap production to feed an exploding population and less about healthy and responsible. As individuals we need to put more thought into what we stuff into our face and take responsibility for that.

[lavouivre]

As I see it, if we stopped eating meat, then with the population we have to sustain and nourish, we would have to make more space for more crops, which would mean not only taking farms space, but also perhaps also taking some forest space, and reducing even more the habitat for wild animals. Perhaps that means more Monsanto around.
So then, the real problem would become overpopulation and how to "feed" a vegetarian mankind. Either way, I am afraid for the future of the earth, as we have already broken the natural balance for a while now.

[samurai]

If the pastures that sustained the cows and sheep were not needed for meat production,then they would be turned into fields of crops as more ceral crops etc would be needed.Also to a degree friesan cows and various breeds of sheep would become extinct.As for wildlife there would be even bigger emphasis on (in Uk) on pest control on rabbits and pigeons due to the more importance of vegetarian foods.I grew up on a farm,and life for your small farmers is hard and not always full of EU handouts.

[lavouivre]

As for wildlife there would be even bigger emphasis on (in Uk) on pest control on rabbits and pigeons due to the more importance of vegetarian foods.

That too!!

I don't think vegetarianism is going to settle the matter. I don't think we need less meat, I think we need more druids or at least, people respecting nature and its balance, eating seasonal food, making sure meat comes from farms that treat animals with respect etc.

[Erithe]

I can't speak for other countries, but in the U.S. (and speaking as someone from the mid-west corn belt), most of our crops are not meant for consumption, particularly corn and certain versions of rape and mustard seed. We're not growing crops to feed people: most fields are grown with plants to create ethanol, corn syrup/sugar, and cattle feed (which leads to fat, unhealthy cattle who should be eating grass). Corn, also, is one of the most damaging crops you can grow and farm lands lose inches of topsoil a year when that's all they plant. Add to that the insanely cruel, reprehensible methods used for cattle and other popular meat-producing animals ... it's unforgivable. Living in a more urban area near Chicago, it's difficult to find fresh meats and produce that are safe to eat and not ridiculously expensive. Not to mention, a lot of places flat-out lie about their food sources. The area where I live is very depressed and there are what are called "urban deserts" all around us where it's impossible for the very poor to find fresh, unprocessed food.

At this point, even if people just ate fresher, tastier food, that would make an immense difference in their health and well-being, in my opinion. When I was little, I used to get into trouble for stealing my mother's cherry tomatoes off the vine ... they tasted like bursts of pure sunlight. I wish everyone could experience food that directly.

We're moving in a few months - sadly, not to a more rural area - so I'll need to see what's around us in our new town, but if we have land or just outdoor space, I want a Victory Garden / Container Garden. I think its time people grew their own food and ate locally, put pressure on industry to produce healthier vegetables and fruit, and treated animals in their care humanely ... but that's going to take reform on a national level and that happens so slowly.

It's really hard to look at the state of food production in this country (the U.S.) and not feel horribly depressed. I did not grow up in the city and I remember being healthier and so much happier.

((er ... I've rattled on again. ))

[samurai]

I think as said we need more Druids,and more respect for what we consumme.I'm a forager and you can't beat it.

[Erithe]

I think as said we need more Druids,and more respect for what we consumme.I'm a forager and you can't beat it.

What do you mean by forager?