Discipline and children

[Merlyn]

I-ron-eeeeeee
Definition,
:The act of spitting beer
I-ron,e

[Frog]

Umm,
I'm starting to think that this thread has run its course. I hereby invoke Godwin's Law and suggest that all we need to do is create a master race of blue eyed, blond children with perfect manners and all will be well and this discussion moot. As a certain "Father figure" had suggested.

And with that in mind, could we assign this thread to the naughty step, or have it sent to it's room please?

[Sencha]

I'm starting to think that this thread has run its course. I hereby invoke Godwin's Law and suggest that all we need to do is create a master race of blue eyed, blond children with perfect manners and all will be well and this discussion moot. As a certain "Father figure" had suggested.

The Slippery Slope is a fallacy in which a person asserts that some event must inevitably follow from another without any argument for the inevitability of the event in question. In most cases, there are a series of steps or gradations between one event and the one in question and no reason is given as to why the intervening steps or gradations will simply be bypassed. This "argument" has the following form:


Event X has occurred (or will or might occur).
Therefore event Y will inevitably happen.
This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because there is no reason to believe that one event must inevitably follow from another without an argument for such a claim. This is especially clear in cases in which there is a significant number of steps or gradations between one event and another.

Examples of Slippery Slope

"We have to stop the tuition increase! The next thing you know, they'll be charging $40,000 a semester!"

"The US shouldn't get involved militarily in other countries. Once the government sends in a few troops, it will then send in thousands to die."

"You can never give anyone a break. If you do, they'll walk all over you."

"We've got to stop them from banning pornography. Once they start banning one form of literature, they will never stop. Next thing you know, they will be burning all the books!"


From: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacie ... slope.html

[Merlyn]

if Y is the question then X must be the answer!

Yes, I see it all now,
a significant number of steps or gradations between one event and another all is gray as there is no black & white really,

IMO the spamming of this thread should end, not really the thread itself.
Also hand in hand with this is the "I am the teacher" attitude you are perpetuating Sencha, as you have not yet earned the respect from the "students".

Only if a person earns this respect will others learn from them.
And we all are both students and teachers, as any true Drui would know.

A little prod now & then to show we are not obsessively taking anything too seriously is one thing, but you have to take a little prodding as well.
A teacher is only as good as his/her ability to earn respect.

This may take a little time, patience and effort since your long diatribe caused just about all to question your sincerity.
Back on topic, now

[Merlyn]

So after all,
We do have this value in druidry to teach,
and our children are perhaps the most important of our teaching "lessons" to ourself.
It is a two way street, a relationship as important as our spouse, and our child needs to know this.
They need to know that despite all things that happen, our children will always be our top priority. This is vital to them.
So it is simple; really.
If we are aggressive, let it be aggressively positive.
If we feel negative, let us learn from it and not blame for it.

Drui hold some things as sacred.
And our children need to feel this, not a spanking!

That's my view and I am sticking to it!

I take this away, with me from this thread to show it is a good thread, and expresses much like any family, that there will be disagreement, even arguments, but above all of this will be the positive if we seek it. The Druid knows the wheat from the chaff, knows how to make it so. To think there will always be a fair wind is foolish, and no druid would think as much. This important lesson comes to our children in the strength of love we show.

Some parents split up, sad but often the case now, but an aggressive positive care for the children will rise above this if even one of the parents makes it a priority.

[Sencha]

There is a right way to be in the world. The Native Americans know it. The ancient Celts know it. Aboriginal people from all around the world know it. If there is a right way to be in the world, how did we ever stray so far from it? I think it is because we needed to know what the wrong way was like, so once we'd experienced it we'd never be tempted to stray from the path again.

[cursuswalker]

There is a right way to be in the world. The Native Americans know it. The ancient Celts know it. Aboriginal people from all around the world know it. If there is a right way to be in the world, how did we ever stray so far from it? I think it is because we needed to know what the wrong way was like, so once we'd experienced it we'd never be tempted to stray from the path again.

Again, too vague. specifics please.

[Frog]

Do you have specific examples that reflect that the cultures that you presented did not smack their children as part of their learning/growing process?

For me, I'll read this thread that no matter how many very clever people write some very clever things about how to do things in very clever ways that may have worked on a subset of the population; there is not a single answer to how to raise children. Most parents would hope that their children turn out more clever, or intelligent than they did - and will do whatever they have in their experience and education to deliver that. For some, it is the use of language; but there are those whose language is not as comprehensive and will use other methods.

For some of us, we will decry that - especially if the method is severe and overstated - but there is a need to recognise that we can't all be college professors and that the small being in front of us won't always behave as dictated by Dr Spock in his last book.

[Sencha]

Again, too vague. specifics please.

Black-and-white thinking.

[Merlyn]

SENCHA!

You are on ignore forever

[Sencha]

The topic is 'discipline and children.' Stay on topic.

[Merlyn]

Kids just need help all the time, and they do not always know it.
We as parents have a lot to learn in order to make right choices.

[Ghostrider]

There is a right way to be in the world. The Native Americans know it. The ancient Celts know it. Aboriginal people from all around the world know it. If there is a right way to be in the world, how did we ever stray so far from it? I think it is because we needed to know what the wrong way was like, so once we'd experienced it we'd never be tempted to stray from the path again.

In other words: if you cannot recognise the 'wrong', you will never know what is RIGHT.
Problem with that is.. who decides what is right and what is wrong?

How did we stray from the 'right' path? Perhaps because we allienated ourselves from the 'World' and thought of ourselves as omnipotent. As some religions advocate.. the Earth is her to serve US, not the other way aroind (which is ludicrous, imo).

Another question might be... if we do not stray from the 'right', how do evolve?
What was right for Celts, Native Americans, or even our parents, may not be the 'right' thing for US.
In another thread you claim that theists (if I remember and spell that correctly...) have an idea of Deities as all-knowing and omnipotent.
Personally, I believe my Deities to be 'only human' (for a lack of a better description). If they do not learn, adapt or change their ways / plans, then how can they (or we) be linked to an evolving World and to each-other. So.. for them as well as for as... how can we know what is RIGHT, if we do not know what is WRONG?

I hope to think that, what I conceive as, my Gods and Godesses learn from our mistakes as much as we may learn from theirs.
Much the same applies to parents and children. For all the same reasons mentioned above. They will never learn to be right, without knowing wrong. It is up to us, however, to stop them from going too far. Which may be where our Gods are failing, since might be going too far in exploiting our World.
On the other hand.. if we keep up the pace, we might 'solve' our own errors in a drastic manor.

As for disciplining our children.... In the past millenia, we've been doing a pretty darn good job at violently abusing our environment and our world. Someone must have taught our forebears that violence is a way of getting things DONE.
I'd rather teach my kids that violence is a last minute resort, but can be a very effective way of stopping abuse.

I guess, as with much in Druidry / Paganism, the most important thing to teach them is that there is a balance to be sought. And if we cannot find that balance ourselves, we will make poor parents. A correctional slap may be within the balance, just keep in mind when that balance starts tipping to abuse.

My daughters have never had a physical reprimand from me. They do know, however, when they've gone too far and that punishment is due. It's a start, I guess.

[Frog]

I guess, as with much in Druidry / Paganism, the most important thing to teach them is that there is a balance to be sought. And if we cannot find that balance ourselves, we will make poor parents. A correctional slap may be within the balance, just keep in mind when that balance starts tipping to abuse.

My daughters have never had a physical reprimand from me. They do know, however, when they've gone too far and that punishment is due. It's a start, I guess.

Ghostrider - I agree. Balance is everything.

[Merlyn]

Balance in the home is everything, and that means giving the kids a responsibility to be part of it.
This means a lot to kids, to be a participating part of the family, not just a video game player, or sitting out on all that goes on.
We take this seriously on the Stone Feather Farm.
Everyone has a job, and kids are no exception.
This kind of relationship is good for building character and skills that kids need. It promotes constructive family time, great values in work ethic and is very Druid IMO.

[Merlyn]

I'd rather teach my kids that violence is a last minute resort, but can be a very effective way of stopping abuse.

Hi Ghost rider,
Unfortunately, violence in schools is a reality.
Teaching self defense does need to be balanced with self discipline.
They need to know both or the ability to see a fool for what s/he is will lead to trouble. At the same time, I am not going to raise a wimp.
Mind-body balance is essential.

[Sencha]

As for disciplining our children.... In the past millenia, we've been doing a pretty darn good job at violently abusing our environment and our world. Someone must have taught our forebears that violence is a way of getting things DONE.
I'd rather teach my kids that violence is a last minute resort, but can be a very effective way of stopping abuse.

Violence is A way of getting things done...much in the same way that you can start a campfire with a flamethrower. But what is expedient is not always what is best.

I think that equating 'violence' with 'strength' leads us down too many wrong paths. I think it takes far more strength to maintain active pacifism in the face of violence. For example, look what Gandhi and Martin Luther King achieved.

Using violence as a first resort to solve a problem is to me the highest form of 'wimpery.'

[Merlyn]

I think ignoring kids can be too often simpler than doing what we would rather do.
Too much work, too many broken cars, work on the house and such takes us away from our kids.

So I take care to teach them how to fix things. My son loves it.
He got his first dirt bike, and even learned how to completely disassemble the carburetor and put it together again and other things on a two stroke engine.
Now I am teaching him how to get his first car to pass emissions and run as clean as possible.

Everything from knowing if the emissions system is active to testing the O2 sensor and replacing it. After taking the cell phone and computer gaming away I have noticed a much happier kid. All covered with mud, or grease his smile tells all.

[Snægl]

I think ignoring kids can be too often simpler than doing what we would rather do.
Too much work, too many broken cars, work on the house and such takes us away from our kids.

So I take care to teach them how to fix things. My son loves it.
He got his first dirt bike, and even learned how to completely disassemble the carburetor and put it together again and other things on a two stroke engine.
Now I am teaching him how to get his first car to pass emissions and run as clean as possible.

I most heartily endorse this approach. Some of my fondest memories are of learning all manner of things while helping my uncle fix up my grandmother's house: rewiring wall switches, hanging door, pouring cement, and the old adage "rust never sleeps." Or playing at my mother's feet in the kitchen each night as she cooked dinner, helping when my attention allowed it, but free to play as needed.

Indigenous groups keep the children with the mothers (or family unit) all day long, so they are learning the skills they will need to become a productive member of their society. And, incidences of "discipline" are (coincidentally?) reduced.

Teach a child the way their world works and you're already ahead of the game, IMNSHO.

--Snægl

[Ghostrider]

I think that equating 'violence' with 'strength' leads us down too many wrong paths. I think it takes far more strength to maintain active pacifism in the face of violence. For example, look what Gandhi and Martin Luther King achieved.

Depends on the situation again, I think
Where children are concerned, there is NO excuse for violence. In some cases, however, active pacifism isn't an option either, if that means they get out of hand.
In those cases, taking a strong position is prudent. They need to know who's BOSS. But I prefer talking to my kids over scaring the living sh*t out of them. Abuse can come in many guises.
Teaching them to TALK and REASON will get them farther than throwing a tantrum. Even if that means they get THEIR way (if they have a better 'story' than me, then that's not THEIR fault )