Discipline and children

[Tanglewood]

I have been concerned with the belief that adults should have absolute iron tight control over their reactions to horribly misbehaving children.  When your 5 yr old pinches you to get attention do you jump and slap their hand off? When you are on the phone and your kid is yelling at you, do you cover the receiver and shout "HUSH UP!"? or do you calmly take a deep breath, do a little yoga and softly say, "My darling, child please do not disrespect your elders in such a manner"?  I worry about the kids who do not experience natural reactions to their bad behavior. They go out into the world, harm some one or damage some one's property and  get socked in the nose. Then the lovely passive parents sue the real victim for reacting defensively to their obnoxious child's actions. (don't anyone post back that I am saying to sock our kids in the nose, you know what I'm getting at here )
  I have raised various kinds of animals and live in the forest and witness them in their natual environment as well. If a cub or kit bites it's Mum's tail a little too hard she'll react. And it isn't with a purr. This is how the young ones are taught to use their brains and survive. So while I don't believe in walloping children I do believe that our children must understand that other people do react to their behavior and its not always with pets and purrs. They need to learn that they are not always the victim but they sometimes victimize others and its not nice.

[leaf]

My parents had routinely used a belt for discipline.  The final time it happened I was instructed to feed our dogs and to make sure that I did not feed one and then the other but to feed them together, for the bigger one would eat all the food.  The bowls required some prep and when I went to put the bowls down I found I needed both hands to put a single bowl down.  So, I put one down and then the other.  My parents went ballistic!  They only saw me put the second one down and assumed I had not listened to them.  They wanted to whip me.  I actually pushed myself against the wall and finally ran to my room.  My room had an outside door--I was gone.  Off to a friend's house.  My parents had to come over and spend time with my friend's parents before I would agree to go back home with them.  My friend's parents warned them that they would be checking up on me.  When we got home my parents, though angry, did appologize and decided that they would never use a belt again.  It was then and there that I decided I would NEVER use a weapon in discipline.  Even using my hand must be done without anger.
I do not condone hitting to hurt a child.  I do believe that it is perfectly fine to administer a smack, when the situation is appropriate.  If someone has never experienced an appropriate moment, then I hope that person has never smacked a kid.
I would never tell a person that must use any form of corporal punishment, but I also wouldn't condemn a person for it.

[Lizzy]

I think you posted at the same time as me Donata, I was asking Phyto, if she is okay with answering that question that is, it was just a question and it is up to her to answer it yes or no, no harm done.

I'm sorry if I brought up bad memories for you, I don't know if your mother hit you often. Like I mentioned, my parents didn't and when they did (usually after a shoutingmatch with my mother in my teens) my father gave me a kick in the butt to go up to my room.

I was a sign for me it was NOT okay to hurt my mother like that and it didn't even hurt that much to tell you the truth. It was more the whole appearance of my father being angry that I really knew I had gone too far you know, I never associated it as a bad, abusive thing. Lucky me of course, I know it can be much worse.

I guess it also depends on how it is done? When I had gone too far, later on my parents always explained why I was being 'punished'. And I never felt worthless or unloved by my parents, they always made it very clear they loved me very much, I guess I felt so save, that sometimes I took advantage of their trust in me, those were the times I crossed the line, you know?

Hope this explaines it a bit from my point of view.  :shake:

[Crow]

I have been concerned with the belief that adults should have absolute iron tight control over their reactions to horribly misbehaving children.  When your 5 yr old pinches you to get attention do you jump and slap their hand off? When you are on the phone and your kid is yelling at you, do you cover the receiver and shout "HUSH UP!"? or do you calmly take a deep breath, do a little yoga and softly say, "My darling, child please do not disrespect your elders in such a manner"?  I worry about the kids who do not experience natural reactions to their bad behavior. They go out into the world, harm some one or damage some one's property and  get socked in the nose. Then the lovely passive parents sue the real victim for reacting defensively to their obnoxious child's actions. (don't anyone post back that I am saying to sock our kids in the nose, you know what I'm getting at here )
  I have raised various kinds of animals and live in the forest and witness them in their natual environment as well. If a cub or kit bites it's Mum's tail a little too hard she'll react. And it isn't with a purr. This is how the young ones are taught to use their brains and survive. So while I don't believe in walloping children I do believe that our children must understand that other people do react to their behavior and its not always with pets and purrs. They need to learn that they are not always the victim but they sometimes victimize others and its not nice.

Excellent post, Tanglewood, and I'm glad to see that you have included an  example from nature, which as druids we might consider to be our best teacher.

[Art]

Back in the day  :old:  spanking was an accepted form of corporal punishment administered by parents, teachers, and coaches or, to some degree, the clergy.  I must confess that I received quite a few growing up. In retrospect I can say that I deserved each and every one and, with the exception of a couple administered by a coach in junior high, I never felt I received a spanking from anyone bent on abuse.  Nor do I think I was particularly traumatized by the experience. I do however believe that spanking was used entirely too frequently to the exclusion of alternate disciplinary methods.

With that said, theories relating to child rearing come and go and I do think a discussion of alternative disciplinary methods and the long-term efficacy is entirely appropriate.  

Acceptance of spanking has declined dramatically over the last forty years as alternate methods of disciplining children were developed.  To a large extent, people raised under the “no spank” zone guidelines are just reaching majority.  Is there any quantifiable data to support or deny that these folks are any more or less capable of constructing a full, meaningful and satisfying life than those who did receive the occasional corrective tap?

[Merlyn]

An interesting question, especially for a druid, do we spank??
 Kids can be very aggressive, and hit, harm and even seriously harm adults.
On the other hand, words can be just as bad, they only leave a scar on the inside, often far worse. It is a tough call. IMO it can depend on the kid, as I have a grandson who is two, and if you say "no please" he will look at what ever it is and say "no no" and walk away knowing his boundary and it just blows me away! Other kids, like my son did at that age will continue to prod at it even after several prompts until he is physically engaged and faces consequence. I was raised by a man who took physical and verbal methods much too far, into late teen age, thinking the only way was to bully kinds out of doing things wrong, as his experience was this.
 Where do we draw a line?
I find if we rise to anger, it is because we fail to outsmart the kid. The result in anger is as much from frustration as it is from the thing the kid does wrong. So if I used a spanking, it had to be "by my own hand" and not a paddle as my elementary principal used. Why? So I would feel the pain equally. This choice proved out to correct my parenting as much as the kid. How this might work obviously depends on the parent. It also brings up comprehension, and if the kid comprehends this.

  I learned from my kid "how to parent" by forcing myself to be in his shoes. Once I did, I could see at least why, and then learn to outsmart him. This then led to a very strong relationship with him. He sensed my effort, and responds to it, still at 14. Kids do not fully understand anger IMO. Parents might think they are raising "little adults" but we really are not. The anger hurts, words harm even more. Abuse begins when we fail to see their side.


Merlyn

[Claer]

Firstly, I'll just say that I'm not a parent - so some may wish to disregard my post.
As a child I grew up in a household where the odd smack was given out. It was rare. It wasn't a beating. Before I had always received a warning that if I continued to behave as I was I would get smacked. Each time I reckon I deserved it - I knowingly over stepped the mark. I don't remember being smacked without the reasoning of what I'd done wrong not being explained to me. Although, it is only now that I think I understand my Dad's comment of "this hurts me more than you".
Today, I see with friends children many threats to smack given out that don't get carried out; and this goes for threats of other non-smacking punishments to like no sweets etc. When my parents calmly said they would smack or a priviledge would be removed - it was never half-meant. I learnt were that line was and was. Later resorting to smacking didn't happen often - we got to learn "the look" - the one that said "try that once more and you know what will come".
My Nan was a widow at 33 with 5 kids - and two jobs - she didn't have time to debate. If the guilty one didn't own up in five minutes all five got a smack - then she knew she had the guilty one. She didn't want it to be like that but circumstances play a part - as do the differences in kids.
It all comes down to so many factors that I don't think there is a clear cut right and wrong here.

[Donata]

Definitely the occasional smack is OK!

A couple of years ago, when my grandson was 2 (and very bright so the terrible twos were a ghastly reality!) I was visiting my daughter, son in law, and Ronan. Ronan is raised with discussion and reasoning. As a bright 2 yr old he had already learned how to manipulate the situation. I saw him ignoring his parents, doing what he chose, and the frustration on their part as their reasoning fell flat.

He liked to pull the cat's tail. No one ever slapped his hand etc!!!  One day the parents were busy, and Ronan gave me a sly smile (as I said, he's smart) and pulled the cat's tail. I quickly pulled his hand away with a stern 'NO'. Howling commenced, both parents grabbed their darling and consoled him, and gave me dirty looks, demanding what had I done to him! Did I even slap the child? no. (tho  I wanted to). Did anyone else give a darn about the cat???? no. Do I think this was an effective way to handle the situation? NO!

That's the other extreme IMO. They are teaching him that he's the center of the world, that feelings of others don't matter, etc. In raising children balance is needed. Look at the results of your discipline! I don't want either an 'obedient' fearful child or a selfish manipulative child. I want a self confident child, with empathy for others.

BB
Donata

PS. Ronan is much better now. He's nearly 6.

[Merlyn]

I want a self confident child, with empathy for others.

Yes,
 absolutely.
There is no "set" way for discipline. And I can tell why. Ever raise an Autistic child? ADD or any of the other disorders? I have. It is critically important to work with a doctor as "sensory integration" (A form of autism) cannot be diagnosed until a pattern is established. To treat an autistic child with ADD methods as example, will destroy the child's confidence.
 Early on an autistic child with sensory integration will be totally unable to understand anger. Why? The child cannot feel it. Instead the child is completely disoriented though has a comprehension level far ahead of his/her class.
 To even think there is any "set way" to address discipline with children just does not work. The "old school" way to deal was smacking the child, the new school way is to coddle the child. Neither works absolutely for all children. There is no black & white answer. In fact it's all gray.

Merlyn

[Akeela]

I'm no parent, not yet at least.
I honestly think a good swat on the arse is effective, a cuff upside the head or a smack on the hand. There's a difference between disciplining your child and beating them; and I'm for the disciplining.
We moved around a few times growing up so I had loads of different friends, now in the small towns it was pretty unanimous that if you crossed that line you were going to get a swat. Then we moved to the city, some of the things kids were getting away with floored me, as a child at 10. If I ever back talked to my parents it was a cuff upside the head, I usually only did it a couple times a year cause it hurts getting smacked on the ear. I sure don't do it now, they still smack me upside the head and I'm almost 20. When I was little if I did something I wasn't supposed to do, like misbehaved in a restaurant, mum would take me out to the car give my arse a good swat, tell me to sit there until I could behave like a proper little girl then I could come back in. She did that once - never had to do it again after that. Misbehaved in the mall or a store, she took you to the closest bathroom and gave you a good swat on the arse after she locked the door. She only ever did that once when I threw a tantrum.
So... in three times, three sessions of discipline I behaved out in public, didn't back-talk, didn't throw tantrums and didn't complain... too much Now these kids from the city... none of them ever had any form of discipline like that... I'd go over to their houses and these kids were swearing at their parents, throwing fits in the middle of the stores and running around the restaurant. Discipline to these parents was 'nownow johnny, sit down and behave.' To me.. that's bad parenting... But I was raised like that.
Yeah it hurt and I learned from it, just like you learn not to play with matches after you don't listen and burn yourself, or if you don't listen to you mother when she says 'don't play on the rocks' and you fall and get hurt, you learn. Do not do that. Like others have said, I never felt unloved, or hated or unwanted. IT was their method and it seemed to work a lot better than the methods people are using now. Mum had no empty threats, if she said stop that/ ave THE look or you're going to get a licken you either stopped or you got one. Though she never yelled at us when we were younger... I don't think she agreed with that.  She did however shake me, when I was 15. Curfew was at 9 an I didn't get home till 11 ... so when I walked in the door she was all tear splattered, she grabbed me by the arms and gave me a good shake and yelled at me about how worried she was because she thought I was kidnapped becuse I didn't call or get a hold of her. Yep...uhhh I wasn't late for curfew. That shake scared the living hell out of me

I think it really boils down to the parents and their own will. Personally I don't think you should ever have to out-wit you child. Shouldn't you be the boss? Your kids shouldn't be doing things where you have to find ways to outsmart them. That there says to me there wasn't really much discipline in the earlier years, but that's just my opinion. As soon as I understood yes and no, I was disciplined, because I knew what those words meant; authority was asserted before anything could happen. IMO parents need to be more assertive now than they are, they shouldn't be so afraid that their kids will hate them or call the police. It is the parents right and job to discipline their child, be threw a well intended swat, or soap in the mouth for lieing (cough only did that a couple times too). Like I said, I'm almost 20 and my parents still discipline me, I'm an adult, however I'm still their child; always will be. And I'd have to say they raised me right. I live in their house, they are still the boss until I move out, they still feed me and give me a roof over my head for free- heck I've still got curfew. They're still the boss, and that's how I think it should be. I've respected, loved and revered both my parents my whole life, I never once felt unloved, unwanted or hated when I got my discipline.

But that's just the opinion of a young girl without kids.

Donata - I'm way too cocky for my own good, I love myself, even my little fat cells that evade my workouts. Yes the smacks had a long-term affect on me, they taught me. I didn't fear my parents, I love them, they're my best friends. Yup I sure did change my behaviour to one that would make them smile and say 'Thank-you for behaving, even though those other kids weren't. You set a good example.' Every time I behaved I got praised and thanked for acting so grown-up. If I didn't well I got a smack. I must admit I was a bit of a rebel for a bit, I refused to go to church and I think I refused to eat egg-plant one night... and I think I may have not done my homework, but I only ended up hurting myself by trying to be witty by not doing my homework. Can't say I was the cleverest of the bunch.

[eas-dannsair]

There seems to be a lot of conflict in this particular topic. I think the way someone is raised ie were they or were they not hit as a child is what really brings out the firm beliefs and morals regarding this topic.

I was hit upside the head as a child, once that was so forceful it pushed me into the wall. I've decided I won't hit my kids (when i have them) unless i've tried every other method, and that will be on the backside. (that's if it's still legal to do so).

My mother only shouted, and yes, this did some damage, i could usually see the reason, so it wasn't as harmful to me.

I believe that you may treat your children as you wish (without abusing them), and if they disagre with your technique, they then have the choice to do the opposite when/if they have kids.

I don't want to start any arguments, but since I was last hit by a parent about a year ago, i guess this is a kids point of view on it (though it's biased due to how i was treated).
IMO, hitting the head is both unnecesary and bordering abuse, but then again, that's just my opinion.
The backside is more common and more socially acceptable (i believe). I'm all for restraint as long as the child is not harmed (ie tying them up to leave red marks on wrists is not acceptable imo.)
I do have a four year old cousin who's never been hit and he behaves well and seems to be growing up to be both healthy and as obedient as any other 4 year old.

I don't mean to offend or upset, these are all just my opinions, and i'm not a parent, so you may disregard my post.

In Love And Light,
Willow Myrina.

[Sencha]

I think it's really sad that so many supposed intelligent adults can only come up with physical violence as a way to deal with children. Spanking is a lazy, immoral way to discipline a child. I can hear the pain and the anger coming through in all these pro-spanking posts. That anger shows their real, deep-down feelings about being abused as children themselves.
Violence never solves anything. It's sad that people feel the need to resort to violence against the most helpless and innocent members of our society.

[Merlyn]

Can we really earn the respect of our kids with discipline?
I found the main obstacle is to earn respect.
But that isn't by threats, religion, or anger. Letting anger be an example in fact can be a learned response we have.

We then must break the chain.

Merlyn

[Nobby]

I was hit twice by my mom in my childhood.

Both times I think now and I thought at the time it was EXACTLY the right thing to do. The first time I was about 8 and I had smacked my sister with a wooden spoon and my parents had seen. My mom said "Elizabeth! How would you like to be hit with a wooden spoon?" I replied with "I don't know I'VE never been hit with a wooden spoon!" said with my most snottiest of voice. As soon as I said that I knew I was going to be hit with a wooden spoon. And I was, but lightly on the bum, it didn't even hurt...it was just the consequence.

The only other time was when I lied to my mom and got my sister in trouble, when I finally admitted lying I got slapped across the face, again it didn't hurt, didn't mark, but shocked the hell out of me. I learned not to lie.

The only regular discipline that involved body contact was if we mouthed off or were being brats in public we got the knuckle on the top of the head, again didn't hurt, and was simply a little tap letting us know we were treading dangerous waters. If we kept being brats we got Mom or Dad looking at us in the eye and in a quiet voice telling us to cut it out...and that was usually enough to make us toe the line.

Saying that my Mom and Sister did get in screaming matches, but I rarely did my dad yelled but I'd have taken my dad yelling anyday over a "Lecture." The yelling was swear and put down free and more "WHAT WERE YOU THINKING? ARGH ARGH ARGH!" the Lectures went on for HOURS and broke us with boredom.

Basically what I'm saying is regular beatings are not right in my opinion in fact beatings and spankings aren't right. But an occasional smack isn't out of order. But occasional needs to be occasional, in fact more rare than occasional. I've known people who were beaten at home regularly, now they tend to spend the holidays and other "family" times with my parents.

Says something doesn't it?

[Sencha]

Basically what I'm saying is regular beatings are not right in my opinion in fact beatings and spankings aren't right. But an occasional smack isn't out of order. But occasional needs to be occasional, in fact more rare than occasional. I've known people who were beaten at home regularly, now they tend to spend the holidays and other "family" times with my parents.

Dozens of studies would say otherwise. Spanking is linked with lower self-esteem, more aggessive behavior, lower intelligence, etc.
Think about this...if you screwed up at your job, would it be okay for your boss to spank you?
If your answer is 'no,' then why is it acceptable for a bigger and stronger adult to do so to a child?

[Nobby]

Basically what I'm saying is regular beatings are not right in my opinion in fact beatings and spankings aren't right. But an occasional smack isn't out of order. But occasional needs to be occasional, in fact more rare than occasional. I've known people who were beaten at home regularly, now they tend to spend the holidays and other "family" times with my parents.

Dozens of studies would say otherwise. Spanking is linked with lower self-esteem, more aggessive behavior, lower intelligence, etc.
Think about this...if you screwed up at your job, would it be okay for your boss to spank you?
If your answer is 'no,' then why is it acceptable for a bigger and stronger adult to do so to a child?

Then you didn't read my post properly, my parents didn't spank me (except for birthday spankings which were a silly thing) but I got an occasional swat on the butt that again never hurt me or a tap on the head that again didn't hurt...my parents NEVER hurt me or my sister and we have no issues with them. My friends who were spanked and beaten and such at home and my point was is they spend holidays and other family times with MY parents instead of their own because they have a better relationship with my family. I'd be there too except I live in a different country. My parents didn't beat me and I'm glad they didn't but they gave me an occasional swat which didn't hurt and did me no harm whatsoever.

[Sencha]

I'd be there too except I live in a different country. My parents didn't beat me and I'm glad they didn't but they gave me an occasional swat which didn't hurt and did me no harm whatsoever.

But did you turn out okay BECAUSE of the spankings, or IN SPITE OF them?
I raised two children without ever spanking them at all...without even a 'swat on the behind' (which, by the way, is what spanking is). So I know it is possible to raise children without having to resort to physical violence at all.
Again, I would ask, if your boss gave you a 'swat on the behind,' would you consider that acceptable behavior? If not, why not?

[Nobby]

I'd be there too except I live in a different country. My parents didn't beat me and I'm glad they didn't but they gave me an occasional swat which didn't hurt and did me no harm whatsoever.

But did you turn out okay BECAUSE of the spankings, or IN SPITE OF them?
I raised two children without ever spanking them at all...without even a 'swat on the behind' (which, by the way, is what spanking is). So I know it is possible to raise children without having to resort to physical violence at all.
Again, I would ask, if your boss gave you a 'swat on the behind,' would you consider that acceptable behavior? If not, why not?

I think there is a huge difference between a "spanking" and getting an occasional gentle swat on the behind or a gentle tap on the head. Spankings (or at least the ones my friends got) hurt, my swats and taps didn't. And actually I would say it's like a friend giving you a warning tap in the side with a hand...it was a warning "You're going to get into trouble"

And yes I think my parents swats on the butt and taps on the head did help me turn out okay, and not "in spite" my parents didn't hurt me. When we were in real trouble it was a lecture which was the punishment we dreaded. I don't even remember the swats on the butt just my parents told me they did that occasionally. What I remember were the taps on the heads which were annoying but useful, they let me know when i was pushing it and I knew my parents would explain where I'd pushed it later if I didn't understand. I remember punishments being chores, lectures, and other things that worked fine.

My point is there is a grey area between SPANKINGS=TRAMUATIZING HORRIBLE! and the occasional Swat on the butt that doesn't hurt and is just to get your attention and is actually less painful then say My work collegugue stepping on my foot if I'm running my mouth off to my boss...and I'd very much place my parents taps in THAT catagory.

[Sencha]

You still haven't answered the question...if your boss gave you a 'friendly tap' on the top of the head, or on the butt, would that be okay with you?

[Nobby]

Actually I have, my saying my parents tapping me on the head was COMPLETELY unlike my boss doing it. *sigh*

You know what? Since your world is black and white with no shades of grey have your win. This isn't a debate, there is no point to try to convince you that my parents did me no harm (which the didn't) because you refuse to believe my grey-area position exsists

I don't believe in spankings as a form of discipline, I do however believe that a rare gentle tap or swat doesn't hurt anyone, because it didn't hurt me or my sister because it was rare and gentle and not the main form of discipline.

But since you don't believe that can happen you see only Physical Contact=HORRIBLE TRAMUATIZING SPANKINGS THAT SCAR CHILDREN FOREVER.

If there is no grey area there is no debate.