Discipline and children

[Merlyn]

Violence and spanking are two different things.
But it is a fine line.

[Frog]

This has been an interesting thread... unfortunately I think there are a number of ideas presented that (IMO) are a distraction to the original point.
So, my experience: I have no children of my own, however I have been involved with young people (through Scouting as a volunteer) for over 20 years.

If I have a problem with any of my Scouts we have a 3 strike rule - when you misbehave, we tell you (1) This is a 1 month warning. If you misbehave again, we write to the parents. This warning lasts 6 months, and may also carry a short ban from Troop meetings for a number of weeks. the third warning is a written warning, also with a conversation with the parents and a full term ban. If we are at camp and we have a misbehaving child, we will instigate step 1 - step 2 is also with immediate removal from the camp as well.

Ultimately though, our fall back on discipline is to hand them back to the parents.

But the issue (and discussion) here is where the fall back is for the parents. As Teachers, Youth Organisation workers and volunteers, and health care people, we can provide support to parents, but the bottom line pretty much stops with the parent.


IMO over the years a number of very qualified people have put together very rational documents about the subject of parenting. Whilst very illuminating and interesting, their studies reflect the general thought that people are very different and that one solution is not a panacea for every problem with child rearing. The other factor - which I believe is equally important to consider - is that people don't need to have a qualification, or be of a certain mental accuity, or even sober when they make the decision to become a parent. Some become parents and it's unexpected, others become parents because of family pressure... whatever the reason, very few think "I'm a market leader in being a great parent so this is my career goal" (most it seems, seem to think "I'm about to be a parent... I'd better get prepared for what might happen).

Although the OP made some very personal thoughts about what they think - and that's valid - I don't believe it's fair, or right, to say it's a valid choice in all cases.

Frog.




So I thought it through as a scenario:

The first point to consider is that to become a parent, I don't have to have passed any qualifications and tests apart from putting my bit successfully in another bit. Then, if I'm lucky - I get a child that is mine to look after. With that, I then get a whole host of experts - theoritical professors, recognised teachers, "well-meaning" neighbours and family members and everybody else that sees my kid in the high street and wants to express their opinion on how I should bring up my kid based (typically) on the set of circumstances that they grew up with.

And then my kid starts to push the boundaries and learn what is acceptable - and what isn't. I can try and reason with them - very grown up and I'm sure that my 3-year old has the emotional and rational intelligence to understand that the big bag of sweets is a high-GI food and that his motabilism hasn't quite stabilised from that really big cup of SUGAR -GULP that partly went in and mostly went down the front of that T-shirt. Or (and in front of everyone watching as my child makes more noise than the Space Shuttle taking off) I can start my process of Warn, Warn again more clearly, then a smack. (after all, I don't carry a naughty step round with me as a general rule).


I suppose my point in all this is that any action has to be swift and relate to the situation at the time. Continued smacking or beatings saved "until your father gets home" are (IMO) worse as they are not corrective actions to assist with a child learning boundaries. As noted, it also depends on the mental accuity of the child - a 7-year old child generally is a lot more rational in thought than a 2 y-old, so the treatment should be different.

[Merlyn]

Hi Frog,
Good points, and it bears to mind that no parent is prepared to deal with raising kids no matter what they think or learn.
It is important to know that raising kids is in essence a two part process. It is indeed what matures the parent, as well as the kid.

I also have worked with the scouting program, and many others. One day while at a scouting camp I was sitting with one patrol who was in charge of dinner that day. So I was conversing with them as to what they were going to cook and offering some helpful ideas. Another parent, also an ASM walked up and barked commands like he was used to in the military, "Scouts it is time for you to get dinner going", and what followed was something I would never forget.
One of the scouts was very offended and grabbed a kitchen knife and shouted, "Scouting is a boy run organization and it is up to us, not you!". He waived and motioned with the knife and continued doing so for almost a half an hour before we could calm him down. His parents had to come, and in this one "strike" he was out of the troop.

What most in scouting do not know, and should, is that many of the scouts are there because their parents feel they need help, and more than half have ADD and other disorders, on Ritalin and other kinds of behavior modification drugs. Truly the scouting program does not prepare scout masters for this, and they should. Teachers in school should also be educated as the problem is much the same.

So my point here, is it any better to drug your kid than to spank him/her?
Especially since these drugs will often lead to suicidal attempts by the child?

And to spanking...
If this is such a sin, every doctor who gently prods a baby to take it's first breath is then guilty of abuse.

If we observe nature and watch the mother wolf we will indeed see discipline, as she snaps at the one who refuses to leave after she is tired of feeding them.
She causes no harm and is immediate to ensure the lesson is learned.

Of the learning that children do, I learned that schools, and all programs like scouting, parenting and such is as much a learning experience for the parent as it is for the child.

I had a problem with a pre-school where they listed what my boy did, and handed him off to me to "discipline". They of course would not discipline for fear of being sued.
They would not even put a kid in time out. And of course anything I would do did nothing because it was after the act and the child would never get the message.

The child learns he/she can get away with anything and only face angered parents much later. This sets up a very bad behavior problem one which extends into adult life if not stopped. I allude to this with my example above where my ex wife insisted I beat my son.

Spanking is much like the mother wolf, who grabs the young by the scruff of the neck. It gets the message across, but does no harm.
It is natural. It however is not parenting. It is a very short term solution in the very early time when the kid is developing and has a natural tendency to object to anything short of full time attention.

[Jalking]

I strongly disagree with you Merlyn, There is NEVER any reason to use violence against a child, pain won't accomplish anything positive.

I have been a scout most of my life, and was a leader of children 12-16 years of age for about 25 years. I am also a father to a teen-age girl.
I have never found any urge to spank or otherwise abuse any child - physically or psychologically. I hardly ever have had need to raise my voice at all unless the situation was dangerous.

The children know me and react promptly if I shout. I believe they do it because they know that I mean business and that if they don't someone will get hurt. If I was more harsh with the children and raised my voice more often they wouldn't react so promptly simply because they got used to the shouting.

I don't like the term "disciplining children" at all as I believe it only covers punishment from an adult for something the child have done. There is no guidance in that at all as the children never get a chance to experience the true consequences of their actions. When "disciplining" you take responsibility for the consequences and the lesson the child could have learned is swopped with an act of violence.

It is much better to take the role as a guide - telling how things are to be done and why - they when the children doesn't listen you let them experience the consequences of not listening to advise.
An example: I tell my group of scouts that its time to make diner if they are to get something to eat before we sit at the campfire. I tell them what to do and how to do it.
When start loosing concentration and start being sloppy I could react by shouting and forcing them to do it at my pace - or I can lean back and observe what happens.
What happen in that situation - and you stand firm on the original deal that we have to eat before going to the campfire - is that diner will be ready well into the darkness of night and we will miss the campfire.
This will only happen once!! they will have learned their lesson and will be more organized and willing to do the work next time.

They learned from the true consequences of the action that if they slack they will miss the fun. If I have started shouting and "disciplining" they would have learned that they have to be speedy to avoid my wrath... What lesson is the best learned??

Hitting children is ALLWAYS a matter of an adult being frustrated about what to do in the situation and they resort to violence to let the steam off. There will allways be a non violent alternative - the challenge is to find it!

I will stop rambling now - please excuse any faulty language

[Merlyn]

violence against a child

Gently spanking a child so he/she will gain the first breath is not "violence against a child".

I see the argument, and agree we as parents must progress and never be "violent". However mistaking spanking as violent is untrue. It can be, and if so is wrong.
But we do have a responsibility, one which requires more than over reaction or enabling.

The balance is how we mature as parents.

I hardly ever have had need to raise my voice at all unless the situation was dangerous.

And so you have. And so you must.

There is no absolute. To think so is false.

[Aitrus]

I have two daughters, ages 7 and 3. It's been my experience that every child is different, and with different motivations and different reactions to the various forms of discipline.

My oldest is always rational, and will often punish herself mentally. We ask her what should be taken away for misdeeds, and she tells us what needs to be taken away. She chooses her own punishments. Before that became effective, the punishment that worked best with her was to make her stand and stare at her toes without moving under penalty of having the newest toy, favorite book or whatever being taken away. I would watch her like a hawk, and snap a "Don't Move!" at her if she so much as budged. It forced her to stay still and think about her actions instead of acting out just because she was frustrated. She is very bright and understands that actions have consequences, and she understood the concept even at 1 or 2 years of age.

My youngest hasn't yet learned the cause-and-effect principle. She doesn't understand yet that her actions cause punishments, but she's learning. Often, when told "No", or for any number of other reasons, she will drop to the ground and cry until she throws up. A quick smack on the bottom of a thump on the crown of the head with a finger will bring shock, bringing her out of it and lets us communicate with her. A quick smack or thump also stopps her in her tracks when she bites or hurts her Big Sister, but only Mom and Dad do the smacking or thumping - never Big Sister. It's an application of authority and a way to make her stop and think about what she is doing.

My oldest went through a phase where she bit people she was mad at. We tried telling her that it hurt, tried taking away toys, tried using time-outs. Nothing worked. She finally stopped when we began to immediately spank her, a single swat or two on the arm, crown of the head or butt. No hesitation, just Mom 'n Dad's reaction, and that was the end of it. We didn't talk about it, didn't argue or fight about it. We just administered the needed reprimand, then went on our way, and kept the whole thing impersonal. She learned that the reaction to her biting would be impersonal pain, so she quit biting.

I'm not saying that beating a child for your own anger is right - it's not. But beating a child black and blue is a far cry from using pain in a constructive manner to teach a child the consequences of their actions when words don't solve the problem. No child will ever learn that the stove is hot from his parents telling him so. He learns by burning himself a little, and that memory of pain as a result of his actions will remain with him always. If a parent imposes impersonal pain, meaning that the punishment is administered without emotional yelling or crying on the part of the parent, then the child learns that pain is the consequence of whatever action he was doing that earned him the punishment. The pain must be impersonal to be effective because then it's not the parent punishing out of anger, but like the stove, it's the natural reaction to a certain wrong action on the part of the child.

I believe, from experience, that there is a time for physical punishment, but it should be limited in it's application and it's use. The difference is that sometimes it's the stove, or other inanimate objects, that deliver the pain, other times it's the parent. The issue is that the parent must learn the right amount of discipline - any discipline, for each child individually. No punishment will work equally for all children, whether that punishment be time-outs, taking away toys or priveledges, or spanking. Spanking is a tool to be used judiciously, not vengefully. Too much time-out or constant berating is just as hurtful and damaging as spanking.

[Merlyn]

Well yes,
In the very first year, the child has no clue what words mean, and it is always interesting to see a parent speak to a toddler like he/she is a young adult.
But we do, and the words eventually take on meaning. No means no and so on. I have seen toddlers take great strides to be sure, some very quick to learn and others acting like the parents are their slaves and should bow to them. I have even watched my own daughter dare me to stop her, from doing any number of things, including harming her brother, by biting and such.

One parent's experience is no where near enough to make any kind of over-all judgement on how kids react, or should be raised.

The delayed discipline issue is one I have taken interest in. If this is a set system for a young kid in pre-school, the result in later years is a disorder of sorts.
The child does what he/she wants, knowing full well eventually the punishment will come, often in total denial right to the Principal's door.
The parent will wonder "what the heck is going on"? The learned behavior from the past, becomes a pattern of denial. Cop ability for the bad things is even a very hard step for the child, lying about it even if it is very obvious. I work to get the child to understand that the lie is worse than the behavior he/she is lying about. The discipline for lying is then much more than for the original bad thing he/she did. This breaks the behavior of lies and gets admission to the behavior but then the initial behavior problem still exists.
So we have to work on that, and the 123 strike rule will work on some kids, but not all.
The "lose the privilege" thing fails if the child is one which will find comfort in failure, and believe it they often do.
They know they will eventually get the privilege back, and are little gems for a while. But then they do it again.
So after a few tries, I sit my boy down and explain the consequence will be much more severe. He imagines this must be that I will become angry, but that never happens, in fact quite the opposite. In one example he used a cell phone, knew the boundaries, saw that I have record of each and every call from the phone company, but refused to be responsible with the privilege and spoke for hours at a time driving the phone bill very high. So... now he gets to buy his own.
This really sent him into a stupor. He thought that the back & forth of grounding would go on forever. HA! It can't I explained, as this requires an on going diatribe of all manners and all I need to verify is that he knew full well the boundaries and the result. But more importantly, he now needs to succeed on his own.
He needs to let go of mommy's skirt and get a job, do odd jobs and interact with that great big world out there

He wandered around lost and asking all kinds of questions, even telling me he can't ride his bicycle to work because they don't allow them in town.
I never laughed so hard. "Good try son" I said. "Now get a job and stop making lies up" I told him. "The bicycles are all over town, there is NO such law".

I agree that violence is bad, and it is not at all just from the parents, not at all only the parents who give the kid this idea.
I remember watching my son as a toddler drop to the floor and have a tissy. I was amazed because I had never seen this before. Then I went to the day-care and saw where he learned it from!

To blame ourselves for everything a kid does is complete BS! Though some do because they are told it must be so. I will gladly tell you that is the biggest crock on earth!

We must open our eyes to what our children see OUTSIDE of our home environment. That means taking a few times out and going to see what we are putting our kids into at day care, school, while on TV, all of it. We are for sure role models and have that part to be responsible for, but there is much more.

The internet is one of these things. Ever catch your kid sneaking on a porn site? Learn he was taught how to do this by other kids in school? Knew enough to use a separate browser so you would not know he was on YOUR computer doing it?

Don't blame yourself for everything.

[Sencha]

Violence and spanking are two different things.
But it is a fine line.

No, they are not. If your boss turned you over his knee and spanked you at work for making a mistake, would you consider that assault, or not?

[Aitrus]

No, they are not. If your boss turned you over his knee and spanked you at work for making a mistake, would you consider that assault, or not?

There is a difference: my boss is not my parent.

As a parent I am responsible to my daughters, I have a duty to raise them according to my morals and instincts, to prepare them for their futures and to eventually integrate with society at large. My job is to teach them how to be successful (as in my definition of success), how to use their own minds to make decisions for themselves, and how to be prepared for the unknown. My morals and instincts may differ from yours, and that is ok. My job is not to raise my children according to somebody else's code of parenting, but my own.

My boss has none of those responsibilities. So yes, I would consider it assault from my boss, but from a parent it is a learning experience if handled correctly. If not handled correctly then it is abuse.

Nobody has any business telling me how to raise my children. My responsibility lies with my children, not society. I won't tell you how to raise your kids, and you don't tell me how to raise mine.

[Sencha]

There is a difference: my boss is not my parent.

Your boss is in a position of authority over you. Therefore there is no difference.

If your boss spanked you, would that be considered a violent act?

If so, why is it okay to use violence against children, but not adults? Is it because they're too little to fight back?

[Sencha]

Nobody has any business telling me how to raise my children. My responsibility lies with my children, not society. I won't tell you how to raise your kids, and you don't tell me how to raise mine.

Actually, if you think that nobody else has any business telling you how to raise your children, try beating them or sexually abusing them, and you'll find out rather quickly how wrong that statement is.

As to your comment, " I won't tell you how to raise your kids, and you don't tell me how to raise mine," if you'll note the topic of this thread, 'Discipline and Children,' that is what we're talking about. If you don't want to hear opinions that are different from your own, perhaps you should be on other threads.
The bottom line is that decades of research continue to demonstrate that children who are spanked have lower self esteem, behave more aggressively, have lower grades, and tend not to be as successful as children who aren't spanked.
I'd be glad to post links to the research if you're interested.

[Merlyn]

Sencha,
That is THE most ridiculous line of BS I have seen all week

After such an example I seriously doubt you know anything about raising children.

[SidheAingeal]

Sencha,
That is THE most ridiculous line of BS I have seen all week

After such an example I seriously doubt you know anything about raising children.

Frankly, that was the most disrespectful statement I have ever seen anyone on this forum make in my entire six years here. How about backing up your disagreement with Sencha with some facts of your own, rather than cheap shots, thoughtless dismissal and accusations?

I thought this was a forum in which we could disagree respectfully but apparently I was wrong.

[Sencha]

That is THE most ridiculous line of BS I have seen all week

After such an example I seriously doubt you know anything about raising children.

I ask that the moderators remove the above post as insulting and inflammatory.

[Merlyn]

After all I have read, in this thread, I do seriously doubt I am conversing with a professional child phycologist.
This is my opinion and I have every right to it.

Internet conversation is often plagued by such problems, so my doubt is a matter of serious concern.
If doubting is an inflammatory issue, then I am very suspicious why you cannot dispel my doubt. Frankly I wish you would.

[Sencha]

I am a Family Therapist, not a Child Psychologist.
What are your credentials regarding family therapy?

[Frog]

Hello everyone. I'd like to make a couple of points:

A position of Authority (ie. Manager) is not the same as Parent. Certainly within business, your manager is governed by a number of Human Resource rules, regulations and policies to what is and is not considered reasonable management behaviour. To use this as an example, IMO is a red herring to the thread.

Those who look after children or care for children from a "professional" perspective (youth worker, youth group leader) is similarly under certain rules and regulations for their conduct with young people.

A parent is not. For example, they are not subject to CRB checks, or have to attend certain training courses before they are allowed to look after a child. Indeed, the processes only exist if someone in a professional guise is advised of any misbehaviour by the parent.

I also have worked with the scouting program, and many others. One day while at a scouting camp I was sitting with one patrol who was in charge of dinner that day. So I was conversing with them as to what they were going to cook and offering some helpful ideas. Another parent, also an ASM walked up and barked commands like he was used to in the military, "Scouts it is time for you to get dinner going", and what followed was something I would never forget.
One of the scouts was very offended and grabbed a kitchen knife and shouted, "Scouting is a boy run organization and it is up to us, not you!". He waived and motioned with the knife and continued doing so for almost a half an hour before we could calm him down. His parents had to come, and in this one "strike" he was out of the troop.

What most in scouting do not know, and should, is that many of the scouts are there because their parents feel they need help, and more than half have ADD and other disorders, on Ritalin and other kinds of behavior modification drugs. Truly the scouting program does not prepare scout masters for this, and they should. Teachers in school should also be educated as the problem is much the same.

Interesting point Merlyn; but there are a couple of comments I would like to make. From our Troop alone, very near 30% have some kind of diagnosed behaviour; I would suspect that there's another 10% who just haven't been diagnosed, but their behaviour would indicate milder versions of similar. We know that the parents need help - and often send their kids to Scouts to enable them to get a break.
The UK Adult Scout Training Programme does offer some training and assistance to leaders to help them understand these disorders - But to be honest that's not the problem. The problem is that in order for such a child to really benefit from the Scouting programme they need more close supervision - and that means dedicating leaders to specific children... in most cases we just don't have that leadership size - and because of the age of the young person we don't always get the parent to lend a hand (especially if they are having a break for a couple of hours).

[Sencha]

A position of Authority (ie. Manager) is not the same as Parent. Certainly within business, your manager is governed by a number of Human Resource rules, regulations and policies to what is and is not considered reasonable management behaviour. To use this as an example, IMO is a red herring to the thread.

Yet another person who's avoided the question. If it's okay to hit children, why isn't it okay for one adult to hit another? Is it because the adults are big enough to fight back, or for some other reason?
Your red herring didn't obscure the fact that everyone on this thread is trying to avoid the question.

[Merlyn]

Sencha,
You are defining "spanking a child" by comparison to adult violence.
And in doing so ignoring the obvious difference. Rather than be frustrated by your line of questions and reluctance to answer any, I will leave that obvious difference to speak to and for itself. Why spanking is such an issue to you might be a question you need to ask yourself...
Discipline and children is a vast subject and the consistent obsession about spanking you have is kind of odd.

Hi Frog,
Schools do have options, providing the child works with the school and isn't adversarial. IEP options can work much better than drugs for the development of the child. Scouting has by comparison very little options, and past a background check, no way to tell if the parent leaders are educated in spotting potential problems with the scouts.
The trouble begins with the behavior, but on modification drugs things can get way out of hand. When asked to determine the issue it is then a forced situation in school. Either the parent puts the child on drugs or the school can refuse to educate the child. Fortunately things have progressed. and things like Autism are no longer being grouped as ADD, however often mistaken for it.
Many scout groups rely on a handful of parents, and scarce supply of parent time. Others have plenty of parent participation, and this changes as the group goes on. But the problems faced with respect to ADD and other disorders is not part of the adult program, and should be.

[Aitrus]

Yet another person who's avoided the question. If it's okay to hit children, why isn't it okay for one adult to hit another? Is it because the adults are big enough to fight back, or for some other reason?
Your red herring didn't obscure the fact that everyone on this thread is trying to avoid the question.

It is okay for one adult to hit another in certain circumstances - self-defense for example, or in a boxing match.

Your argument seems to boil down to "You're wrong! Why can't you see that?". You refuse to consider the possibility that somebody else has an opinion that is as equally valid as your own.

You continue to use the tactic of ignoring the answers and accusing us of avoiding the questions. We're not avoiding the questions you're asking, we're just giving you answers you don't like.