My Daughter the Christian

[wolfsbane]

My daughter ha just announced that she wants join the Christian Club at school where they meet up on a Monday and pray and talk etc. I am really struggling to accept that my daughter has chosen this path. As some may be aware i have had a crap 18mnths where i have become disabled due to spinal problems. This has had a huge impact on my spiritual belief & now my middle daughter has decided she is going to become a curch going Christian. WTF

[Oneonine]

I wonder how long her interest in christianity will last if they tell her all non-believers are going to hell...

Are you part of the process, is she of an age where she has to get a permission slip from you to attend? If so, I imagine there is pressure not to be the bad guy in refusing her what she wants. But a discussion of why she wants to join, if it hasn't already taken place, might be helpful. You don't mention her reasons...

Perhaps she is looking for somewhere to fit in and meet people, and the religious side isn't paramount? Have you asked her about whether this is her choice of faith, curiousity, or just a choice of activity to fill a social void?

For me her age would be important in any decision. I believe a child shouldn't be an inside part of any one religion, only study it from the outside as part of comparative religious, or metaphysical studies, till they reach puberty. That would include my own religion as well as any others. I just feel any religion has the ability to imprint itself on the subconscious, negatively or positively, especially in the formative years. I've tried to be a good aunt to my nephews and neices by helping with fees for non-religious clubs to fill the social void they might experience. And I'm careful about not mentioning my own beliefs, except in brief, until they are passed puberty, and then, only if they ask, and their parents say it's okay.

Perhaps you could ask her if there are any other religions she would like to explore at the same time, for comparisons? I don't know if her christian friends would be cool with that, but the fact they might expect someone to be exclusive could help form her opinions too?

I'm not a mum though, and can't really know what you are going through. Perhaps someone with more direct experience of this can add something more intelligent. Are you the same faith as your parents were?

[DJ Droood]

My daughter ha just announced that she wants join the Christian Club at school where they meet up on a Monday and pray and talk etc. I am really struggling to accept that my daughter has chosen this path. As some may be aware i have had a crap 18mnths where i have become disabled due to spinal problems. This has had a huge impact on my spiritual belief & now my middle daughter has decided she is going to become a curch going Christian. WTF

Sorry to hear that...they allow these sorts of pernicious recruiting groups inside the walls of my kid's high school as well...not sure what can be done about that...should have joined the parent council maybe, but it would probably take legaL challenges to ban them. (although they did get rid of candy and pop machines, so there is hope)....hopefully she will out-grow it, like Justin Beiber music. Probably there is a friend she wants to spend time with, and the friend goes....but you have to let her make her own choices...worst thing you could do is make a fuss about it.

[celticmodes]

I would just surround her with a shield that lets only the good stuff in. There are some Christian groups that actually spend their time focusing on the positive aspects of the religion. I have mostly fond memories of my own Christian past. I did have to ditch that separatists crap though.

[Huathe]

Wolfsbane,

You should let your daughters choose their own path. A good Christian is not judgemental. After all, Jesus himself ate, drank and slept with sinners. He rescued the woman at the well from her accusers who was about to stone her to death for her sins exclaiming " He who has not sinned cast the first stone ". Of course all people sin and none could rightfully stone her. The point I am trying to make is that if a Christian is doing what he or she is taught in the Bible than he or she should not be condemning others simply because we all sin. That only shows unchristlike behavior and turns people off of the religion. Christians should be trying to promote the teachings of Christ without finger-pointing and critisizing others. That never works. I have heard it said " That Christians are the most arrogant of all religions ". That along with Islam may well be true.

I will quit my rambling but all I am saying is that one can be a Christian and be considerate to others not of their faith.

James

[Michael C. Page]

Dear Wolfsbane,

You can always let her go and then discuss with her what she has learned or experienced during the meeting. Let her talk to you about her spiritual experiences and then you share yours with her. …. Kind of a non-judgmental Comparison/Contrast session, if you will.

You may, not only, learn different aspects of two contemporary belief systems, but more importantly you will learn more about each other. Sharing one’s own spiritual exploration with another is very intimate and requires much trust. Look at this as an opportunity.

Yours, Michael

PS. I almost forgot. This link may help in the future: http://www.druidry.org/modules.php?op=m ... age_id=103

[wolfsbane]

Thanks guys, I have let her join this Club at school. She is 11 and is going through Puberty. She is quite grown up for her age and has a pretty good head on her shoulders. She has shown interest in My Wife's and my Spritual beliefs with the occasional comment to my wife that she woould have been burned at the stake in olden times for practicing Aromatherapy. She seems to worry a lot about death & dying also part of the reason i gave up smoking last christmas. I think i will take your advice and maybe do some sort of debrief when she gets home. Her Mother & Step-father are CoE & i still remeber her older sister turning round to me shortly after her mother and I seperated telling me she now had 3 fathers, Me, Stepdad & God aaargh.

[Huathe]

Wolfbane,

Good luck to you and your family. I am sure you are not the first to have strife over differing religious beliefs. But people of different faiths can get along. It simply requires them to respect one another and above all not condemn. Understanding and open-mindedness helps too.

James

[wolfsbane]

Quick update on this. Had a chat with Cez this morning before she left for school and i am now about to write a letter of complaint to the local council. She was in class and was told by her teacher that everyone in the class was invited to attend a little get together in one of the classrooms for hot chocolate & Cake. What on earth are they doing bribing children to attend these gatherings????? she will be going and after further chats with the wife who dealt with the thing much better than me she is attending so she can make her mind up. We are fairly open about all religions in this house where we have a wiccan, a trainee Druid and 3 CoE girls. I was brought up by Mormon Parents and a Witness uncle. Thanks to you all. I knew coming here would help.

Love & Light Wolfsbane

[Frog]

Quick update on this. Had a chat with Cez this morning before she left for school and i am now about to write a letter of complaint to the local council. She was in class and was told by her teacher that everyone in the class was invited to attend a little get together in one of the classrooms for hot chocolate & Cake. What on earth are they doing bribing children to attend these gatherings????? she will be going and after further chats with the wife who dealt with the thing much better than me she is attending so she can make her mind up. We are fairly open about all religions in this house where we have a wiccan, a trainee Druid and 3 CoE girls. I was brought up by Mormon Parents and a Witness uncle. Thanks to you all. I knew coming here would help.

Love & Light Wolfsbane

Hello Wolfsbane.
In reading this thread, I may have picked up on the wrong end of the stick; but I can't actually see what the problem is.

If they are starting up a new group, why not include some chocolate and cake? It isn't bribing anyone and from what you've told me no-one has forced anyone to take up the faith by attending - in the same way that if I attend a group at work there may be tea & biscuits and I certainly don't feel bribed to attend because of it. Schools are changing in their way that they interact with pupils - one of my Scouts has told me that they have just rebuilt his school and the dining room now has plasma screens playing stuff during the breaks!

I acknowledge that your child is 11, but at that age is now starting to make sense of the world that surrounds her. She's looking at her friends, their families, the brick building that people go to on Sunday and possibly asking herself what's it all about, and why are my parents not doing that? Perhaps it's about discussing with her what she found out by attending and having a discussion about it; reflecting that you support her and are prepared to allow her to take responsibility for her life.


As I said at the start, it could be that I don't have all the facts, but this is my opinion based on the information presented on the thread.
Blessings
Frog

[DJ Droood]

She was in class and was told by her teacher that everyone in the class was invited to attend a little get together in one of the classrooms for hot chocolate & Cake.

Maybe she's introducing them to transubstantiation.

[Oneonine]

They have chocolate and cake??? No one told me that when I was skiving off those RE classes....

[Michael C. Page]

Quick update on this. Had a chat with Cez this morning before she left for school and i am now about to write a letter of complaint to the local council. She was in class and was told by her teacher that everyone in the class was invited to attend a little get together in one of the classrooms for hot chocolate & Cake. What on earth are they doing bribing children to attend these gatherings????? she will be going and after further chats with the wife who dealt with the thing much better than me she is attending so she can make her mind up. We are fairly open about all religions in this house where we have a wiccan, a trainee Druid and 3 CoE girls. I was brought up by Mormon Parents and a Witness uncle. Thanks to you all. I knew coming here would help.

Love & Light Wolfsbane

Hello Wolfsbane.
In reading this thread, I may have picked up on the wrong end of the stick; but I can't actually see what the problem is.

If they are starting up a new group, why not include some chocolate and cake? It isn't bribing anyone and from what you've told me no-one has forced anyone to take up the faith by attending - in the same way that if I attend a group at work there may be tea & biscuits and I certainly don't feel bribed to attend because of it. Schools are changing in their way that they interact with pupils - one of my Scouts has told me that they have just rebuilt his school and the dining room now has plasma screens playing stuff during the breaks!

I acknowledge that your child is 11, but at that age is now starting to make sense of the world that surrounds her. She's looking at her friends, their families, the brick building that people go to on Sunday and possibly asking herself what's it all about, and why are my parents not doing that? Perhaps it's about discussing with her what she found out by attending and having a discussion about it; reflecting that you support her and are prepared to allow her to take responsibility for her life.


As I said at the start, it could be that I don't have all the facts, but this is my opinion based on the information presented on the thread.
Blessings
Frog

I have to agree with frog. The snack/food aspect is not bribery, but just one of the main ways to help people feel at ease and welcome. Every gathering I have ever been to, no matter what religion or function it is, has food of some sort. I would not put to much into it.

Blessings - Mike

[Oneonine]

I asked my neice and she said when she was going to a mostly christian school she was happy being a christian and doing christian stuff, as she fit in and had friends and support. With more money coming in, and moving to live with her dad, she was sent to the Rudolf Steiner school and did things to fit in and conform there, even though it's supposed to be a non-conformist setting, being happy to do so for the same reasons. Most kids try to conform. I was one that didn't. It was lonely not having any contemporaries, but pleasant spending R.E lessons with my bare feet in the river in the park. My neice said the trick is conforming on the surface, without letting it indoctrinate you. She's 18 now. Hasn't picked a religion yet. I guess kids are wiser than we give them credit for, even having been kids ourselves.

[Zylah]

A good Christian is not judgemental. After all, Jesus himself ate, drank and slept with sinners. He rescued the woman at the well from her accusers who was about to stone her to death for her sins exclaiming " He who has not sinned cast the first stone ". Of course all people sin and none could rightfully stone her. The point I am trying to make is that if a Christian is doing what he or she is taught in the Bible than he or she should not be condemning others simply because we all sin. That only shows unchristlike behavior and turns people off of the religion. Christians should be trying to promote the teachings of Christ without finger-pointing and critisizing others. That never works. I have heard it said " That Christians are the most arrogant of all religions ". That along with Islam may well be true.

I will quit my rambling but all I am saying is that one can be a Christian and be considerate to others not of their faith.

James

Hi, James - nice to meet you!

Just read this thread, and I do feel for you, Wolfsbane; I see the point Michael and Frog are making as well, but I am in a similar situation with my own children. I totally get why you feel the way you do.

James, part of the dilemma some of us (me, for instance) face with this Christianity issue is that Christianity (like Islam and every other religion/philosophy) is very much what you make of it. The Bible supports just about anything you want it to, depending which parts you favor. You may quote 'Judge not' types of verses, as do all my favorite Christians (and I have many, including my children) but where I come from, they prefer Paul saying in Corinthians that 'he who is spiritual judges all, but himself is judged by no one.', or Jesus himself saying, 'Judge not according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.'; or the fact that Jesus talked about hell 3x more than heaven in the gospel of Matthew, or that according to Revelation he intends to make blood run in rivers that come up to the bridles of horses in a giant war.

This combined with history - personal as well as historical - makes it a serious struggle for me to overcome a deep, abiding mistrust of the Abrahamic religions and their capricious deity. It's all the more difficult because it seems to me to be entirely justified. I do not like them, I cannot like them, and I am deeply concerned about the effect it has on my children.

Wolfsbane - I'm sorry to hear of your physiological difficulties also; be well

[wolfsbane]

Maybe i should have calmed down a bit before putting this into words. I have no problem with them having a little get together with Cake & Hot Chocolate if they had said what this group was ahead of inviting children to it. My Daughter is 11yrs old she has been at secondry school 2 weeks. I think they did this to early in the childrens 1st year at Big School thats my issue with this.

[Oneonine]

Hi Zylah, I saw this somewhere else, and that person was quoting from a book I don't recall now. I know it was a sci-fi book, not a spiritual book, is all. It was given as a reason why as druids its good we don't have sacred texts, but I could also see it as a means not to let the bible be my measure of all christians.

In harsh and cruel times, mankind had harsh and cruel gods. Sacred texts set such beliefs in stone, long past the time when mankind and his understanding of the gods was evolving past such harshness and cruelty.

Some people will always use such texts as a means to cling to harshness and cruelty, whilst others will evolve past literal meanings or outdated beliefs. Those that tend towards harshness and cruelty would seek other excuses if such texts didn't exist, whilst those who seek enlightenment will tend that way despite such texts.

Religions which seek to interpret such texts for you are attempting to affect the trend of this spiritual evolution, but still fall into the same two categories, doing so for good or bad reasons. In any moment of any evolution, you will always get those that are evolving to the next level alongside those that are dying out.

So all you can do is ignore the texts themselves, and judge each individual who uses such things based on their own merits and what they took from their reading.

[Huathe]

Zylah,

Obviously, your knowledge of the Bible is considerable and yes, I agree that most people use the Bible to suit their needs, using only verses that support their individual beliefs. Yes, it's sad. And I do agree that they have been more conflict with the Abrahamic religions than most , if not any other. But still, Christianity has it's good points.

You have a right to choose your own religious path. We all do. I feel though different, all religions can get along. We all seek a spiritual path, we just take different routes doing it.

James

[Zylah]

Hi Zylah, I saw this somewhere else, and that person was quoting from a book I don't recall now. I know it was a sci-fi book, not a spiritual book, is all. It was given as a reason why as druids its good we don't have sacred texts, but I could also see it as a means not to let the bible be my measure of all christians.

In harsh and cruel times, mankind had harsh and cruel gods. Sacred texts set such beliefs in stone, long past the time when mankind and his understanding of the gods was evolving past such harshness and cruelty.

Some people will always use such texts as a means to cling to harshness and cruelty, whilst others will evolve past literal meanings or outdated beliefs. Those that tend towards harshness and cruelty would seek other excuses if such texts didn't exist, whilst those who seek enlightenment will tend that way despite such texts.

Religions which seek to interpret such texts for you are attempting to affect the trend of this spiritual evolution, but still fall into the same two categories, doing so for good or bad reasons. In any moment of any evolution, you will always get those that are evolving to the next level alongside those that are dying out.

So all you can do is ignore the texts themselves, and judge each individual who uses such things based on their own merits and what they took from their reading.

Hello oneonine, great to meet you also

Good quote. I pretty much agree; that was largely the point I was making, that you *can't* use a religion's scripture as an accurate measure of its adherents.

I do not find much likeable or anything trustable about the Abrahamics' god or his books (which I have read, though I have studied the Bible - which includes the Torah - in more depth than I have the Q'uran). Nor should I have to; it may be incomprehensible to me that some people I do like and trust want to be *his* people, but it does not affect my relationship with them as people. What I do object to is the exclusivist indoctrination of people who otherwise would choose other paths; the Abrahamic religions have a lonnnnnnnng history of this, and they're often still doing it.

Nonetheless, you certainly can't ignore the texts either, because they hold a lot of influence, for good or ill. The nice neat equation of good will gravitate to good and evil to evil is unbalanced severely by the homogeneous mixture of underlying factors in human choices. It's easy to say, 'I chose this because I want it', but impossible to really delineate why exactly I want it. How much is my education, genetic heritage, personal history, and life circumstance affecting my perception?

Sure, lots of people find the strength to forge their own path, as it were, even within an organized religion. Lots of Muslims and Christians are great, beautiful, awesome people. However, the equation is not *nearly* so simple as 'good + neutral = good, evil + neutral = evil'. Lots of gullible, great-hearted, sharp-minded people are influenced easily, ESPECIALLY as children; as Ignatius Loyola said, 'Give us (the Church) a child until he is eight, and we will have him for life.' Creepy? Yes. True? All too often, yes, although the stats on that are going down, thank the gods.

So in that regard, it's not as simple as taking each person on his or her own merits. Rarely is anything quite so cut-and-dried where people are concerned, especially in realms of philosophy, politics, or religion. Hence the eternal argument over freewill vs. predestination, or in psychology nature vs. nurture; but in psych, they've had the sense to realize it's a combination rather than one or the other.

[Zylah]

Zylah,

Obviously, your knowledge of the Bible is considerable and yes, I agree that most people use the Bible to suit their needs, using only verses that support their individual beliefs. Yes, it's sad. And I do agree that they have been more conflict with the Abrahamic religions than most , if not any other. But still, Christianity has it's good points.

You have a right to choose your own religious path. We all do. I feel though different, all religions can get along. We all seek a spiritual path, we just take different routes doing it.

James

Good morning, James (well, for me it's morning, anyway)

I agree that Christianity, like just about anything, does have its good points. The history of the Methodists, for instance, is one I genuinely admire in its beginning. They had an intense focus on social justice, which led them to great acts of compassion and mercy. They took care of orphans, widows, homeless, anyone disenfranchised or helpless. They were involved in trying to make life brighter for the miners when conditions were truly appalling. The face of the Industrial Revolution in England would have been much uglier without the Methodists (who became a denomination because the C of E kicked them out). So I have a deep respect for the founders of Methodism.

The fact that we all have a right to choose our path is exactly what I object to in the Abrahamic religions, however. To me, the phrase 'spiritual path' has ENTIRELY different connotations from the word 'religion'. I believe that once a faith or a spiritual path becomes institutionalized, and motivated by money and/or power, it is inherently corrupt. I'm not saying you or anyone else has to agree with me; but it is my perception of religious history.

So although I wish it were true that all *religions* could get along, I don't believe that. I hope you're right, and I'm wrong. I do believe that like-minded, good-hearted *people* of all spiritual paths can certainly get along - it would just be nice to get rid of institutional greed-motivated poison.