An Assessment of Nothing in General

[Azrienoch]

This is a parody. You know the drill.

An Assessment of Nothing in General

Does nothing exist? This isn't the same as asking, "Doesn't anything exist?" because the latter question deals with things, and the first question deals with the concept of absolute nothing, the opposite of everything or something. Is it possible for there to be no space, no time, and no matter?

Since we think in language, let's test the idea of Nothing with linguistics. One could say that if nothing existed, it would contradict it's own definition. For Nothing to exist, nothing can exist...even nothing. So you could conclude that Nothing cannot exist, because if it did, nothing would exist within Nothing, which would make Nothing something, and therefore prove that Nothing contradicts it's own definition, and therefor cannot exist. Of course, this can be countered by the arguement that if Nothing does not exist, then it is no longer condtradicting it's definition, and would therefore exist.
This is simply a play on words. All this does is show us how language is a flawed and unreliable method of thought and reason. We must therefore step outside of language to comprehend the concept of nothing.

Let's turn to the Bible to see if we can get a clear picture of Nothing.
The Bible implies that God is "All." So for those who put their stock into the Bible, the concept of nothing must be VERY clear... Nothing is Godlessness. Hell, therefore, must be the zenith of Nothing.
The problem is that if I go to Hell and become part of Nothing, then how am I to be burned? Fire, even hellfire, doesn't exist in Nothing. Even if you take a "modern," rational approach to the concept of Hell, meaning that you believe the fire is metaphorical, a person would not be aware of being in Hell, as conscienceness cannot exist within Nothing. This will lead to the question, "How bad can Hell be, if I never know I'm there?"
In Hell, as it is generally percieved by Christians, there must be conscience, and therefore, God (identified as "All") must be there in some way. If you disagree with that, then the only other conclusion you can come to is that Hell does not exist, as it contains something. Nothing (identified as Hell), as I've pointed out already, contains nothing.
Other religions do not hold a concept of Hell, or if they do, it is not suggested to be godless, as the Biblical interpretation of Hell is.
We obviously cannot turn to religion to help us find our answer.

Let's try to take the route of science to find our answer.
Quite frankly, no one in the scientific world has ever done an assessment of nothing in general. Science is flawed in that it only explores areas of the universe that a theory can be made out of. They don't sit around asking stupid questions like, "Does Nothing exist?" They only try to define stupid answers to stupid questions. It's the job of the philosophers to find those stupid questions, so let's turn to philosophy.

Philosophy, just like science, hasn't tackled the subject of Nothing directly, but they HAVE looked at existence and conscienceness. From those assessments and experiments, we should be able to pull enough information to, at least, begin to answer this sly question of Nothing.
Take a look and Schrodinger's famous cat in the box. This man put a cat in a steel box so that he couldn't percieve the cat in any way, and so there was no passage of anything between the outside world, and inside the box.
The idea was, if you cannot sense, in any tangeable way, within a specific area, then the space within that area is in a state of all possibilities. So the cat was alive, and dead, at the same time. Of course, the cat was also in the box, and the cat was also not, and so on. This means that time, space, and matter do not exist within that box, because all of those things are only possibilities. The lack of these characteristics is exactly what we're looking for!
The problem is that this is only a possibility, and as soon as the cat is let out of the box, the infinite possibilities instantaneously become one possibility, which is the observable state of the contents of the box.
This deals with perception, a relative and personal thing, which has no hold on the concept of Nothing as an absolute, the mama of all Nothings. For example, dinosaur fossils were discovered in the 19th century. We did not percieve the dinosaurs, nor their bones, prior to that. Here, in some twisted way, Schrodinger would have to say that the dinosaurs did not exist, or they were not possible, until the 19th century.

We've got one more area to search, and that is mathematics. Mathematics deals with abstract concepts, so we should find SOMETHING, right?
Yes!
The sad news is, it offers little more than we've already found in the other areas. But hey, we'll look anyways.
Nothing can be found in the non-number, Zero. It is defined as the dividing point between positive and negative numbers, where there are no numbers. This definition would match our description of our Nothing, if it weren't for one small problem; Numbers, not just Zero, are abstract. Any given number could represent any given measurement (for example, one metre is not the same as one foot, but they both use the number one). If numbers are conditional and relative, then the point of no-numbers (Zero) is conditional and relative. This is not the absolute Nothing that we are looking for.

Here, we are forced to make a decision; Either we accept that there is no such thing as Nothing, that it does not exist, or we attempt to press on and see what we can come up with. Well, it would be a waste of your time to read this, and a waste of my time to write this, for us to simply accept what is so obviously true, so let's press on and form a conclusion the best we can.

We can draw conclusions from each area, as we have done, except for science. As far as science is concerned, there isn't enough information, or we don't have the means to properly calculate the answer to the question, "Does Nothing exist?" The simply fact that they've not explored it is the MOST proof we've had that Nothing DOES exist, because nothing has been scientifically examined, and as we should all know by now, when there is nothing, there MAY be Nothing.
We, ourselves, have been scientifically able to state that Nothing may exist somewhere, because nothing has ever been written on Nothing in a scientific manner.

Did...did we just contradict ourselves? Crap. By making a scientific assessment of Nothing, we have actually destroyed Nothing.
Well, okay. CORRECTION: We have successfully proven that Nothing does not exist, by making a scientific statement about Nothing in general, when there was no statement before. And as we all should know by now, by stating that Nothing doesn't exist, we show that nothing DOES exist, because Nothing cannot exist.

[Kaya-Nita]

it is called circular logic, in order for something to exist nothing must also exist. Or as i heard it once before nothing is the lack of something, you can take nothing from something, but you can't something from nothing.


Circular logic can be so much fun.......drive'em all mad huh AZ?

[Azrienoch]

Yes! I love it!
I was a little afraid that no one would pick up on the idea...thanks KN!

[Saki]

I give up, its a parody of ....??

[Azrienoch]

It's a parody on logic, language, religion, science, philosophy, and mathematics.
Why?
Because we must understand and come to terms with the fact that we cannot arrive at answers, because even the questions we ask are biased to our own understanding. Our capacities for understanding, even our potential capacities after another million years, are flawed, and always will be.
This doesn't mean that you shouldn't ask questions, or even give or recieve answers. It means that you shouldn't ever expect anything to be true or false, no matter where it came from...even if it's yourself.
So I guess this is a parody of ourselves.

[Kaya-Nita]

We can take logic turn it upside down and just because we used words to do so does this now make the logical, ill-logical......no....and yes. By turning logic up side you have made it ill-logical, but in a Freudian sense... no it is only the word logic written upside.

Circular logic: a dog chasing his own tail

[Azrienoch]

It means that you shouldn't ever expect anything to be true or false, no matter where it came from...even if it's yourself.

I should reword this to include; Even answers which are proven to be true or false, shouldn't be taken as true or false. We simply cannot know.

I'll further this by also responding to KN's

By turning logic up side you have made it ill-logical, but in a Freudian sense... no it is only the word logic written upside.
Circular logic: a dog chasing his own tail

The idea that we search for nothing will turn up no results, because it will always be at least one step away, outside of our reach. It's like trying to find infinite by counting as high as you can.

One person suggested to me that Nothing exists outside the universe, but we cannot exit the universe. Why? Because we are a part of the universe. We are a part of existence, so if there is a Nothing, we'll never be able to find it.
Nothing cannot exist, because it is nothing. Existence cannot be Nothing, because it exists.

[FallingLeaves]

Nothing cannot exist, because it is nothing. Existence cannot be Nothing, because it exists.

This statement must surely also be limited?

If I have an empty mind do I become nothing?

Hehe

[Azrienoch]

Does a dead body turn into nothing? No. It is recycled. It's part of the universe. What's that old law? "Matter cannot be introduced nor removed from a confined space," or something like that? The mind may control energy, but it does not control the matter that the energy flows through. Therefore, an empty mind, or no mind at all, does not determine the state of energy, nor matter.

This statement must surely also be limited?

Now you've got it.

[Kaya-Nita]

OK AZ i had to sit back and think on this one again.......i'm suposed to be in bed

OK Science has proved that that nothing exist yet in the same breath has no tangiable proof ie a rock a hair so forth to prove it's actuall existance.

You can't have something without nothing, you can't compare something to nothing and nothing can compare to nothing but you can compare somthing to something, yet with nothing what is something, and without nothing what is something....the need of balance. Ying can not exist without Yang so there fore something can not exist with or without nothing.

OK now i'm done chasing tails for the night. Tomorrow is another day.

i LOVE THIS SUBJECT!!!!!!!!

[Azrienoch]

It really makes you think about a) how you think, b) the limitations of language in thought, and c) funny little "circular logic" foundations and principles.

I tried posing this same question to a bunch of "logical" skeptics, and they just couldn't grasp the idea.
This made me realize that there's a lack of openness with philosophers and scientists, and as I investigated further, I also realized that this spread into many areas...even into my own logic.
And there you have the premise and reason for me writing this in the first place.

I figure, if I can somehow get out of the loop of the "circular logic," I would be able to begin to understand Nothing as opposed to something. It's quite a fun topic indeed!

I just like the concept that since nothing exists within Nothing, Nothing is nothing, and therefore doesn't exist, and yet, it does exist, without existing.

[Unikorn]

I believe in Everything, Nothing is Sacred
I believe in Nothing, Everything is Sacred

Tom Robbins - Even the Cowgirls Get the Blues

[Azrienoch]

I've posted another little thought-provoking essay entitled, "The Reality of Our Reality," in the Poetry and Writing Forum. Check it out. It should be a little easier to understand than this one, and it's not a parody or satire of any kind, but moreso simply a look at realities, and how they are percieved.

[Loosh]

That is why nothing is represented by 0 or a circle. Even in Zen!

[Azrienoch]

Wonderful point, Loosh! Especially when you consider that Infinity is also represented by a circle, in some traditions or schools of thought.

So perhaps the opposite of infinite is finite in one sense, and Nothing in another. Or perhaps I should say that while the opposite of infinite is finite, the opposite of Infinity is Nothing....something to think on...what do you think?

[Saki]

Some infinite sets are larger that other infinite sets. Hence must apply to the opposite, nothing.
Infinity is also represented by a circle, in some traditions or schools of thought.
0
Works for me there's an inside and an outside and you end up at the same place you started.

[Robb Hawklord]

Az, you're throwing to much charm around with all this quark strangeness.

Zero is a mathematical quantity therefore Zero exists ie.....

when
x = ax^2 =+ bx + c = 0

Nothing, however, is sacred and therefore unquantifiable as one doesn't know what to look for.

Is nothing at the end of the beginning or the begiining of the end, in as much as being able to locate it. If we are therefore able to locate nothing, then, for sure, nothing exists.

On the other hand if we cannot find anything that faintly represents nothing, we know nothing exists as nothing

[Robb Hawklord]

Further more to prove the existance/nonexistance of Zero/nothing, mathematicians are happy to allow High School Pupils to work with negative figures, when it comes to University Degree level mathematics negative numbers do not exist because you cannot have less than zero, as nothing exists below zero, and call them imaginary numbers and given the term "i" notation (i-numbers, j-numbers for those who were taught that term)

What we have just proved is that as nothing exist below zero, zero exists, and also Nothing does indeed exist below zero and as nothing does exist, zero cannot exist, neither can we for that matter because nothing exists below and because zero cannot exist neither does nothing.

Therefore the answer to the original question is that nothing is something the need not be worried about because nothing is something that does not exist, as it is below zero, and therfore exists, and is quantifiable and is something.

Something which exists is therefore positive, above zero. But nothing (which is now something) is below zeroi

Arrrrrrrgggggh I cant take any more of this. I'm going round in circles, not getting anywhere, trying to positively quantify an Imaginary Nothing, or something like that - I think

[grey helm]

your all very deep. my head hurts.

[CelticDao]

Nothing, however, is sacred and therefore unquantifiable as one doesn't know what to look for.

If you're looking for it, you've missed the point.