An Assessment of Nothing in General: Part II

[Azrienoch]

An Assessment of Nothing in General, Part II: Nothing is Possible with God


I was driving around today, and I passed a church which sported a sign that said, "Everything is possible in God." Jokingly, I turned to my girlfriend and said, "Even Nothing?" Although it was a joke, this thought stuck with me all day. If everything is possible with God, then is Nothing possible with God? Is non-existence possible with God...even the non-existence of God?

In the first "Assessment of Nothing in General," ( http://www.druidry.org/board/viewtopic. ... highlight= ) we found that either Hell does not exist, or God is with those in Hell. The reason this was concluded was because, if God is All, and Hell is a Godless place, then Hell is not a conscious state because consciousness requires existence.

If we look at the idea of existence, we must consider our consciousness of it. Other animals on Earth do not have the ability to consider their own existence. Try this excercise as an experiment; In your imagination, take your eyes and put them in a corner of the room, near the ceiling. Now, look down at yourself reading this, again, in your imagination. Can you do it?

Humans are the only animals on Earth with the ability to do this. This is a consciousness of self. Animals do not have a consciousness of self, let alone that they are not capable of having a concept of God. So, from this conclusion of an animal's reality, we can say that non-existence is possible with God, because we can see that, even though God is inconcievable by animals, we are capable of a concept of God. Therefore, we can conclude that the non-existence of God is possible with God.

But this leaves me with the question; if non-existence of God is possible with God, why isn't the conclusion drawn that God just doesn't exist in the first place?

Is the only reason that God exists because Humans exist? If humans were not conscious of self, or if they just didn't exist at all, then would God exist? Some would say yes, but why? What purpose is there for God if nothing or no one is conscious of God?

If there is a God who exists even if we don't, this God does not affect change in the universe. Look at a billiard's table as the universe, and the the balls as atoms;
We know, if a ball has been set in motion, what direction a ball will go, and with what force. We also know how it will affect the other balls on the table. So basically, if we can account for all the properties of all the balls, and also the characteristics of the table that the balls are within, and all the rules that both are governed by, we will know where the balls will end up on the table.

I know this metaphor is a very simple one for describing the universe, but the point still stands; if all atoms within a universe are accounted for and we know the properties of each, if we know all the characteristics of the universe that all these atoms lie within, if we know all the rules that govern both, and the starting positions of the atoms at any given point in time, we will know the outcome of that universe.

Real things only exist if they are part of our reality, if they are known in some way. If something isn't known in anyway, then it is not (yet) part of reality, and therefore, non-existence of it may be concluded. Therefore, if God exists, then his presence does not affect the outcome of the universe, and it certainly doesn't desire a relationship with humans. So an objective God either doesn't exist, or he is obsolete and doesn't affect change in the universe.

A subjective God only exists in our minds. He only exists because we make him This God exists within us, not because he desires it, but because we do. Som of us are able to admit that we are just talking to ourselves, while others require that relationship, and create an imaginary friend.

So this puts us in the position to be able to say that either God does not exist, or that God is fallible, and not all-powerful. Why? Because God cannot exist in God's own non-existence. But even here we run into a problem, because then God's existence is conditional.

Conclusion: God only exists because we do.

But I like to be fair, so let's put it to a vote; Everyone who thinks that God exists, raise your hand...

<pause>

Please note that only humans voted...

[EarthBard]

No, I don't believe God exists. You make an extremely intriguing point.
Ironically, most of what you've just said is in the Matrix Reloaded and Matrix Revolutions. Perhaps all those references in the movie, are hidden references to God

[Azrienoch]

Hmmm...myabe I need to watch them...I've avoided seeing them because I loathe Keanu Reeves...

[Azrienoch]

Okay, I posted some new pieces to this to help develop the idea further. If you had read it before, try reading it again, because I feel that the changes envelope the idea I was really aiming for a little better than the original version.

[grey helm]

Your idea is very interesting yet it is the age old arguement of the existance of anything, how can we prove we exist? by touch, taste our sense but are they real? God is a metaphore it wlways has been, we create our gods. I believe i create my world as it is i mould and shape it i give it form does this mean i am god to me? or is this ego?

what exactly is nothing because when i speak of nothing it becomes something, it becomes a topic a discussion, nothing always becomes something, or more accurately the idea of nothing becomes something.

[Azrienoch]

That is all fairly precisely the point, GH. I am aware of the arguement as it has been fought, and this is simply the expression of how I arrived at that very arguement.
Also, if you'd like, the first "Assessment of Nothing in General" is located at; http://www.druidry.org/board/viewtopic. ... highlight=