The Germanic Path

[Freya Kä]

Yet even stout scientists who use to back away from anything esoteric agree that the Runes were used in magic. Were they? The findings seem to support that the Runes were an alphabet - sometimes used in an esoteric context, but not exclusively.

Or could it be that the magical texts mostly disappeared because they were written on non-durable materials? And the names people etched into their swords and helmets remained?

At the moment I am a bit at loss. I personally have no doubt that the Runes were used in a religious/spiritual context, the Eddic texts are giving more than enough references. But why is there so little archaeological evidence of this?

Any ideas, anyone?

Good question indeed.

Apart from the fact that the material used was non-durable, it could also be because those who magically worked with the runes did not want to write about them, maybe because tradition was orally transmitted. It is also likely that few people were literate in runes.

Also, runes were meant to be carved and not written, so they were carved on rock and were meant for short inscriptions and these inscriptions (on runestones) are oftenly described as "self-promotion of one or a family" and not transmission of knowledge.

Superstition also comes in the way, in Belgium for instance, anything sharp (like scissors or stakes) could only be used (it's still the case in some places) by those who were skilled and trained, therefore, runes could only be carved by a few persons.

The only surviving written accounts were not recorded until the Christian era, between the 9th and 12th century. They are known as the Rune Poems (one in icelandic, one in norvegian and one in anglo-saxon). None of them are about the Elder Futhark, which is supposed to be the only Futhark that was used as a magical tool.

But true, runes on weapons is a very common example of their magical use. Some scholars also believe that runes were integrated into architecture, like this : http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~wulfric/v ... /runes.jpg .

[Eilthireach]

Heilsa Freya Kä!

Good question indeed.

With old cultures, you sometimes feel that the deeper you look into them, the less of your questions can really be answered.

The situation is a bit better on the Germanic/Nordic side, because about the Continental Celts we know next to nothing. But still!

Why do 80 % of Rune findings not seem to stand in a context of religion or magic?

We'll probably never know. It could also depend on our understanding of magic. I've read yesterday that most Rune findings are on precious and valuable objects like weapons, armour, jewellery, elaborate pieces of furniture and such. Rune inscriptions on such objects often contain only the name of the owner/bearer. Maybe this was already a form of magic?
We believe today that "names are sound and smoke" (Bavarian saying), but indigenous cultures sometimes hold the belief that the name of a person contains something of his/her essence or true being. I don't know.

The theory that Rune forms were purposefully built into half-timbered buildings is showing up more often than once in Runic literature. Considering that many Runes have a rather basic geometrical form like I or X or H or M, I'm at least sceptic.

Anyway, I recommend anybody interested in Runes to check the local museums for Rune findings. Some of them might even have found their way overseas. It makes a difference if you just read about the Runes or if you have them immediately before you, real Runes, inscribed by our Ancestors.

With the blessings of Skadi (light snowfall over here),

Eilthireach /|\.

[DaRC]

I thought the evidence was fairly clear - Egil's Saga describes the use and misuse of the Runes and the effects it can have. Also there are weapons with Tyr rune.

However it is the same with Ogham - there is little archaeological evidence of their use for magic but much literary and apocryphal evidence. Or maybe we just misunderstand our ancestors viewpoint of the inscriptions?

Cheers, Dave.

[Eilthireach]

Hi there!

However it is the same with Ogham - there is little archaeological evidence of their use for magic but much literary and apocryphal evidence. Or maybe we just misunderstand our ancestors viewpoint of the inscriptions?

Yes, there is little archaeological evidence of their use of magic. The exhibition has underlined this.
And yes, we cannot rule out that we have a different understanding of magic. We almost certainly have. How different, we will never know.

Maybe I shouldn't think so much but stick with the saying of Dion Fortune:

We know that by doing certain things we get certain results.

This is certainly the case with the Runes.

With greetings from frosty Bavaria,

Eilthireach /|\.

[DaRC]

Absolutely - perhaps our modern mind over-investigates things.

From a scientific point of a view a cloud can be defined as cluster of water drops etc... however sometimes you have to just see the cloud, or the shape in the cloud

What I think is most telling is the use of the Thurisaz on Thor's hammer, I'm sure I've seen pictures with this on rather than apocryphal evidence, and swords with the Tiwaz rune on.

I also think that to our ancestors writing something down was 'magical' in that it made it permanent.
Is it not magical that we can read the runic inscriptions of our ancestors?
Does it not mean that there is a certain permanence imbued in the carving that applies to both the carver and the message?

Much of Norse literature is not about living a long life but about living a glorious life that is recorded by the Skalds - i.e. making your name in history. It seems to me that a runic inscription on stone achieves it in the same way that a Barrow or Ship Burial does.

Chees, Dave.

[Eilthireach]

Hello Dave!

Very nicely put, thank you for sharing your viewpoint!

Is it not magical that we can read the runic inscriptions of our ancestors?

It is...and I was really able to decipher some of the inscriptions. An uplifting moment indeed, like a contact being made, over all those centuries.

Blessing and honor to our Ancestors!

Eilthireach /|\.

[Eilthireach]

Greetings!

Since the Winter Solstice is coming up quickly:

Who, in your personal practice and viewpoint, is the Germanic or Nordic deity who ist most associated with the Winter Solstice/Yule?

I've read quite a few Yule rituals over the last weeks and everybody seems to invoke another deity. I've seen Odin, Thor, Holda, Nerthus, Baldr, Sunna and others.

Have a nice weekend!

Eilthireach /|\.

[DaRC]

Oooh Eilthireach,
you know how to put the cat amongst the pigeons however here's my (very) personal view...

So if we assume that it was probably a 12 or 13 day festival over the winter that comprised of Mothers Night as well the Winter Solstice does this not open it up to several celebrations?

For me Father Christmas is a guise of Thor, rather than Ullr or Odin. Just because Thor seems (to me) closer to the Xmas spirit than the other two. Father Christmas rules the whole period from Yule to the New Year and should be honoured every day with at least a mince pie and most probably a drink - my home made Sloe Vodka or Ginger Wine / Whisky. Certainly at Yule I'll have a Slow Druid which is a Sloe Vodka and Mead cocktail of my design.

Yule - the death of the Sun/Green King (which should probably be Balder as the Sun) however I honour Freyr in his guise as Lord of the Greenwood. Given Tyr / Tiw's (possible) relationship to the Irminsul maybe he could be honoured here.

For Mothers Night / Xmas Eve - the Disir, Frigga and Odin on Xmas Eve (ok really Santa, the Elves and the Reindeer get their whisky, mince pie and carrot). I will Blot to Freyja (who led me to my good lady wife), the female land alfs where I live and my female ancestors.

Xmas Day - the new born Sun (Balder / Magni / Ing) of course I choose the Ingvi guise of Freyr. My attempts to get the traditional Boar on the menu instead of Turkey have been resolutely stopped by my family!

The New Year - the Norns with a rune casting and Symbel Blot, of course I ensure Loki get's his share too (but that's for personal reasons!)

All of this is heavily influenced by my personal gods - who are Thor (& Sif) the God(ess) of my tribal area , Freyr / Freyja my family gods and Loki who is my occupational god.

Of course this relates to my gods and for others whose Gods are different I would expect different focus.
Cheers, Dave.

[Freya Kä]

I find your personal view very interesting DaRC!!

I was going for a "one shot celebration" on the 21st and honour several deities but now I'm thinking of adapting what I was going to do and "strech" it on a few more days. Before considering what to do and which god(s) to honour, I started by thinking about which god was appropriate and which wasn't:

I wouldn't honour Skadi because for me, she personifies "hard" winter and snowstorms and the reluctant feeling floating around in November or March, when winter is coming/going and you feel depressed.

Sunna is a good idea, but I don't consider her as a goddess, even though she is adored as such. It is said that Sunna and Mani were "made into" the Sun and the Moon by the gods and that they're older than many gods; I have to admit I don't know "what" they are, apart from being the incarnation of Sun and Moon.

Baldr is also a good idea since he does represent the Light, but I'm not familiar enough with all that he symbolises and right now, I feel that he's more a symbol of the death of Light rather than the birth of Light. When Balder's corpse was deposited on his funeral boat, Thor was about to push the boat on the river and a dwarf was also kicked out of the way on Balder's boat; dwarf symbolises the depth of the earth and we know Balder was going to Helheim, I wonder if the dwarf could be a symbol of what was awaiting Balder. I would tend to honour Baldr by thanking him of the Light he brought us/me in the past months and saying good-bye to him rather than "welcoming him back".

Yule is a time where a lot of wights (spirits) cross the veil between their world and ours (similar to Samhain or Beltane from what I understand) and wights are often linked with the Alfar and with the goddess Holda (Holle) who just came back from the Wild Hunt, and so did Odin. We know that "Santa Claus" is partially derived from Odin (and many others) and we also know that one of Odin's names is Oski, which means "Fulfiller of Wishes", which could be link to our modern conception of Santa/Christmas (getting gifts/whises). The Alfar being the Elves of Lights seem appropriate to me, as modern Christmas is also "filled" with elves and fairies, which is probably linked to ancient lore. And the fact that Holda and Odin are back from the Wild Hunt means that the dark days (from Samhain/Winternights) until Yule are over, which is a symbol of the Sun that's coming back.

Yule time is also linked to destiny (Norns) and taking oaths (Var?) and the boar (Freyr).


That's what I had before reading your post and I am considering something similar to what you have:

Yule: the Alfar and Sunna

Mothers Night/Xmas Eve: Frigg, Freyja and Holda

Xmas Day: Odin

New Year: same as you, the Norns, Sumbel (including Loki) and rune casting.

[Eilthireach]

Freya Kä and Dave,

I thank you both for taking the time and effort to explain your personal approach to Yule. Now I understand why every group seems to honor different deities. There seems to be no common understanding on who are the deities of the season.
In the Celtic tradition this seems to be a little more clear. Sometimes.

Eilthireach /|\.

[DaRC]

Hi Eilthireach and Freya Ka,
it's great to have this forum for this subject!

Freya Ka - I agree that Odin is the most likely candidate for Father Christmas and that Balder suits the death of light. To most heathens / Asatru I would expect Odin to take this place over the Yule period. I'd always thought of Sunna and Mani as a Goddess/God but I can see your point of view.

As to the common understanding I think part of the confusion comes from a need for a single view. It would seem to me that each tribe would have it's tribal god. This seems to be well attested from place names across Northern Europe. Just as the Irish Lugh of the Long Hand is different from the Welsh Llew Llaw Gyffes so the South Saxon Thunar would differ from the Norwegian Thor. There is even a line of thought that replaces the southern Germanic Freyr with the Nordic Ullr. On the Faroe islands they seem to have been less Odinic (within their traditions) than elsewhere in the Norse literature suggests. The ancient tribes of the Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Hwicce, Haestingas, Uncle Tom Cobbley and all seem to have had different Gods and probably had slightly different celebrations.

Almost certainly, until Xtianity was established, I imagine that each tribal grouping would have celebrated slightly differently. Just as each family has slightly different Xmas traditions and just as (a parent) I am creating our family traditions. The kids are used to being dragged off to some festival on Yule (weather permitting) and opening some presents on Yule .

Just MHO. Cheers, Dave.

[Freya Kä]

I'd always thought of Sunna and Mani as a Goddess/God but I can see your point of view.

Well, I don't consider them as gods from their "birth viewpoint" but I honour them as gods or more precisely, "divine entity".

As to the common understanding I think part of the confusion comes from a need for a single view. It would seem to me that each tribe would have it's tribal god. (...) Almost certainly, until Xtianity was established, I imagine that each tribal grouping would have celebrated slightly differently. Just as each family has slightly different Xmas traditions and just as (a parent) I am creating our family traditions.

I couldn't agree more with you and I find it fundamental to "maintain" a relationship with one (or more) family deity, just as we generally feel more attracted to one or two deity for "everyday work".

I was wondering, what did you mean when you said that Loki was your "occupational god" ?

[Eilthireach]

Greetings Freya Kä & Dave!

I agree that in the ancient times probably each tribe or tribal group had its own set of deities whom they especially worshipped. We know that deities were worshipped very locally in Continental Europe and it might be a good guess that a tribe venerated those deities and spirits whose presence could be felt in their area of settlement.

However, this makes it difficult to establish a modern Germanic pagan practice, when it comes to seasonal festivals.

As for Baldr, he is killed, goes to Helheim (= into the Earth) and will return after Ragnaroek (= rise from the Earth). Does that not make him a suitable deity for the death and rebirth of the Sun, the light?

Concerning Sunna, I think that the spirituality of the Germanic tribes was already developed beyond the mere veneration of celestial bodies. They were certainly able to see the working of the gods behind the movements of Sun and Moon and as far as I know the Germanic texts, Sunna doesn't seem to have received much worship. But there are prayers to the Sun in modern Asatru.
On the other hand, Yule is about death and rebirth of the Sun and if Sunna is a deity it still seems very fitting to me to invoke Sunna at Yule. It is finally she who is standing in the center of this festival. No?

Eilthireach.

[Freya Kä]

As for Baldr, he is killed, goes to Helheim (= into the Earth) and will return after Ragnaroek (= rise from the Earth). Does that not make him a suitable deity for the death and rebirth of the Sun, the light?

On the other hand, Yule is about death and rebirth of the Sun and if Sunna is a deity it still seems very fitting to me to invoke Sunna at Yule. It is finally she who is standing in the center of this festival. No?

I agree with that and I also find that Balder's and Sunna's myth are quite similar. Sunna represents the sun but she's also bound to be devoured at Ragnarok but we know that her daughter will come and shine afterwards; just like we know that Balder will come back from Helheim as well.

I guess that both can be seen as symbol of the cycle of the sun, birth and death.

[DaRC]

I was wondering, what did you mean when you said that Loki was your "occupational god" ?

I work in I.T. / Computers etc... I shan't bore you with the details!
For the following reasons I associate Loki with Computers and I.T.:

1) He is the son of Farbauti (dangerous-striker) and Laufey (Needle), if Farbauti is Lightning (as some sources suggest) and Laufey is tinder then Loki is a Fire god. However a Computer needs Electricity (lightning) and Silicon Chips (Needles) to work, thus Loki could be the computer.

2) If you agree with the Stav and others that the rune for Loki would be Kaunaz - knowledge; which has a strong relationship to the world of I.T. knowledge and wisdom are separate just as data and information are separate!

3) Just look at the Lokean nature; sometimes beneficial, sometimes not but always tricksy with a strong element of magic and capriciuosness. Once again this is just like computers.

I could waffle on for aeons with the way I.T. and Loki have a synchronicity which makes him the natural occupational God for programmers.

Eilthireach,
yes Sunna does seem to sit at the centre of the Yule drama as does Balder. If you take the Winter - Summer King approach to his story, which I do based upon Hod's name - Hood / Dark.

To create a unified modern Germanic approach I would concentrate upon the festivals rather than the God(desse)s celebrated. This would fit with what we know of the Northern tribes. The worship of the solstices is evident across Europe. This would then allow each heathen to choose who they or their family celebrate each of the festivals.

Of course I celebrate Yule, Mothers Night, Sun's Birth Day and the New Year - which fits nicely into the 12 days of Xmas. Traditionally in the UK there were the 12 days of Xmas which started on Xmas day and finished on the 5 Jan. This has always seemed wrong to me - why finish on the 5th Jan?
A few years ago when I was re/searching for a Heathen Yule I noticed that from the Solstice to New Years day was 12 days and then everything started to fit.

Anyway let us know what you come up with Eilthireach & Freya Ka. Cheers, Dave

[Lady Nimue]

Hi all....I dont know anything about this subject, not enough to contribute.....but I love this thread, and enjoy it being in Common Quest. It has a great home here.

[Eilthireach]

Hello all!

I have been away for two days, sorry for responding late.

Dave,

I had a hearty laugh at your connection between Loki and computers, especially under use of the term "capriciousness". I work in IT business as well and I swear that I know *exactly* what you mean!

This is also a good example of how we can carry our spirituality into daily life.

Dave, you have brought such examples more often than once over the past years. You follow a deep, yet very practical spirituality and you are admirably well rooted in the traditions of your country and also in the land itself. Is is exactly how it should be.
I happen to have meditated about the Rune Othala yesterday and this is what I received as meaning: "The nobility of feeling at home in one's cultural and spiritual heritage. The heritage is clearly marked out, but it also develops with time."
You are a nobleman of the Anglo-Saxon tradition and I think you are also a shining example of how Druidic principles can successfully be applied to a specific local tradition. Seriously, have you ever considered to publish your experiences in this field?

Lady Nimue,

we gratefully accept your hospitality!

Sometimes I'm asking myself if everybody likes the fact that we are using the Common Quest forum for what seems pretty much like a private discussion between three people.

At the same time I feel that the "quest" between the various Celtic and Germanic traditions is very "common", especially if followed in the framework of the present-day pagan renaissance.

As a Druid I have devoted myself to the preservation of ancient knowledge. I feel that the Germanic part of our common European heritage is often not treated with the justice it deserves. Our Germanic ancestors were not in the least more primitive or barbarian or otherwise unlikeable and unadmirable than our Celtic ancestors. Instead, their knowledge, come to us mostly in the form of sagas and myths, can be a source of great wisdom and insight for all of us today.

If this thread helps to create some balance along these lines, it is well.

Again, thank you for providing a warm and hospitable place for a few wandering Germanic souls!

With blessings from beneath the Bavarian Alps,

Eilthireach /|\.

[DaRC]

Hi Eilthireach,
in internet forum terms two days is hardly late In I.T. terms that's early.

Thank you very much for you praise - from you it is especially appreciated as one of the druids who I've come to respect and trust.
I have thought about a book; it's about 3rd on the list of books I want to write. I use time as an excuse, in reality time working on the book would impact snuggle time with my wife!

First on my list is a cook book but primarily I must complete my Bardic course - of which the final part will be an essay on my extension of The Troth (and others) concepts of the Northern Soul. The earliest that will be is May next year when my tutor returns from a long trip he has said I can use another tutor but I have come so far with him I would be loathe to change.

My thanks also to Lady Nimue for moderating the Common Quest forum and allowing what seems to be an almost private discussion.
I think my view of the syncretism between the Celtic and Germanic history is well known / a point of view I expound at every opportunity and if this facilitates that view then all the better.

I find it almost ironic that around 100 years ago attitudes were almost the opposite with regards to Germanic vs Celtic. The Celts and their language, culture and history were regarded as the barbarian whilst the Germanic had a nobility. I suspect that there are a lot of reasons behind this but prefer to view things from a positive commonality rather than angrily raking over the past. Probably because I feel that I am a product of a Northern European heritage.

Anyway - I shall be keeping touch from home (rather than at lunchtime) whilst containing 3 lively squids who will be extremely excited about Xmas.
Lost of long muddy walks in the woods I reckon.

Cheers, Dave.

P.S. Have a very merry Yule, Mothers Night and Xmas Day. I shall raise a toast of Sloe Vodka to thank you all for this forum.

[Lorraine]

Sometimes I'm asking myself if everybody likes the fact that we are using the Common Quest forum for what seems pretty much like a private discussion between three people.

I've never really explored the Germanic/Scandinavian traditions apart from reading the Icelandic sagas in translation way back, so I had nothing to contribute, but all the same, I've looked in on this thread from time to time because I found the discussion interesting and informative. Maybe there are others who 'lurk' here too!

Lorraine

[Lady Nimue]

I lurk... and learn....this is so facinating, and not only is it most welcome here, but I hope that others will learn from this wealth of knowledge. Preserving ancient knowledge is paramount, IMO, and many of us wouldnt have the exposure to this, if it werent for this thread....so thank all of you!!!!