Noah's Ark

[Lady Nimue]

Hi all....

A few weeks ago, we were watching a documentary on Noah's Ark, and the possibility that it is buried atop a mountain in the middle-east. It seems even the US government has sent explorers and has interest in whether its existance is factual.

Do any of you have anything to lend to the theory, and what do you think of the tale...true or fable, historical fact or symbolic story?

[Guardian]

The actual concept I can imagine, perhaps he had a farm and needed to take 2 of every *farm* animal while a good portion of wherever he was flooded... I'm sure it would have had to be an extremely large boat for the time... in theory I could believe it... I've seen several programs on Noah's ark, and the most they have is a rather vague satellite image... No one has been allowed to investigate it though, because of where it is (last I heard, at least). so I guess we'll never know, or at least not for a while. =)

[Azrienoch]

A few weeks ago, we were watching a documentary on Noah's Ark, and the possibility that it is buried atop a mountain in the middle-east. It seems even the US government has sent explorers and has interest in whether its existance is factual.

That's intriguing!  I just saw a tabloid saying that the Ark had been found not two months ago.

[Lily]

http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-flood.html

[Azrienoch]

Heh, when all else fails, turn to talk.origins.

[Lady Nimue]

Thanks Lily, awesome link....and AZ its nice to see you.

[Lily]

Soooo.... let's see how big the ark was.

According to thiscreationist site, it was this big:



Its size would have been....

equal to the capacity of 569 modern railroad stock cars.

by flashing some large numbers and redefining the scientific concept of species (and misspelling the singular form of it), they claim only 2000 animals needed to be on the ark.

...Morris and Whitcomb ... state that no more than 35,000 individual animals needed to go on the ark.

....Woodmorappe suggests that far fewer animals would have been transported upon the ark. By pointing out that the word "specie" is not equivalent to the "created kinds" of the Genesis account, Woodmorappe credibly demonstrates that as few as 2,000 animals may have been required on the ark. To pad this number for error, he continues his study by showing that the ark could easily accommodate 16,000 animals.

but they are really generous! they stuff hte 569 railroad cars with the reasonable number of - brace yourself.... 50'000 animals...

But, let's be generous and add on a reasonable number to include extinct animals. Then add on some more to satisfy even the most skeptical. Let's assume 50,000 animals, far more animals than required, were on board the ark, and these need not have been the largest or even adult specimens.

What about food - how much of the space of 569 railroad cars is needed to store feed for 50'000 animals for 371 days? According to these folks, none at all.

Once aboard, many have suggested that Noah's problems really began, with only 8 people to feed and water, to provide fresh air and sanitation for the huge menagerie of animals for a total of 371 days. However, a number of scientists have suggested that the animals may have gone into a type of dormancy. It has been said that in nearly all groups of animals there is at least an indication of a latent ability to hibernate or aestivate.

erm... lions, tigers, and bears, oh my. Elephants even. Koalas with special dietary requirements. come on.

Now go and find a boat that size on a turkish mountaintop.

Sorry for being sarcastic again. No offense, Lady Nimue, I am sure you just plain enjoyed that TV program.
I enjoy seeing people going to great lengths to explain fairy tales "scientifically".

[DJ Droood]

I enjoy seeing people going to great lengths to explain fairy tales "scientifically"

It is fun when it is half-wit adult who are being tricked, but it is sad and downright scary when they are teaching "Noah's Ark" type stuff to kids. (half-wit adults are the end product)

[Lady Nimue]

No offense at all Lily...and you are quite right, I enjoyed the programme for entertainment sake(and thank you for the special coloured type, it is close to my B-day  )....with that said, I am not as well read about this, so I enjoy entertaining far reaching thoughts about it. I also like to look at these Biblical tales from a symbolic perspective...parable or is there some fact.

[Azrienoch]

Now, I did watch a program called "Ancient Mysteries," and they started with Gilgamesh as the two stories are very similar.  They didn't think it was the Tigris and Euphrates rivers that flooded, which is generally accepted as the sort of source occurance.  Anyway, they thought that there might have been a collapse of a natural dam, something which is supposed to have happened in many places; the Mediteranian Sea, for instance.  Of course, the Mediteranian filled a very long time ago, way before humans evolved.  They did find, however, that the Black Sea had also been freshwater once, and it had had a collapse not that long ago - perhaps 6,000 or 7,000 years ago.  They began digging where, on their sonar maps, there was an abrupt change in the sea's landscape from smooth to rocky (and also where rivers used to end before it filled up with seawater).  They did find quite a few artifacts - pottery and such - and compared it to the artifacts of nearby digs.  What they think they found was the answer to why babylonian pottery changed pretty drastically, and it was also about 6,000 to 7,000 years ago.  
So interesting little tidbit on how the story might have come about.

[Guardian]

DISCLAIMER! bad language and potentially offensive material

I couldn't help but share this snippet of a SomethingAwful.com article on "Scientific Creationists":

Secret Number Two: Noah's Arc was Magical
Saying Noah's Arc was magical is a "no sh*t" sort of proposition if you're going to buy into the party line about two of every animal being stowed on board. Since the creationists believe that all life was created at once and no life has evolved naturally that means that there were over 30 million pairs of animals on board Noah's ship. Noah's family and over 60 million animals spent a hell of a long time on board that ship while the entire world was covered with rain water. While on the Arc they had to feed all of these animals something other than each other, which means there was an absolutely staggering volume of food of various types on board the ship. Unless! That's right; Noah's Arc had magical chambers that put the animals in suspended animation for the duration of the voyage.

By the way Noah's Arc was five hundred miles long and made out of HOPE AND PRAYERS! Silly motherf*ckers.

If you want to read the rest of the article here are the "other" secerts:
Secret Number One: Jesus was a Single Celled Organism
Secret Number Three: God Lives in a Space Ship Disguised as the Sun
Secret Number Four: Homosexuals Are Actually Dinosaurs
Secret Number Five: Catastrophic Events in the Fossil Record Were Caused by Angels

http://www.somethingawful.com/articles.php?a=1621

(sorry again, couldn't help but sharing)

[Lady Nimue]

AZ and Gurdian...I appreciate both your contributions.....

I posted this thread here in CQ, because I believe that most tales have some sort of underlying message or meaning...so I was hoping to perhaps separate from the facts re: Noah's ark for a moment, and search for the "lesson" intended by the storyteller. Do any of you have any thoughts?

[Guardian]

sorry again for the post... as far as the meaning behind the story of noahs ark, I dont find much other than the usual... devotion and surrendering to Gods will, along with a wrathful/vengeful attitude towards the impure, being rewarded for holding true to his faith.  I am a fan of Biblical mythology, but this isn't one of the stories I found to be very profound or enlightening for myself.  I do happen to be very fond of the story of Moses though. . .

[Kat Lady]

To me, the story of Noah's Ark, while an illustration of the Judeo-Christian "follow my will", is much more than that if I dig more deeply.  To me it is a tale of courage, standing by your beliefs, and the need to work with the earth and not against it.

Here is my take on the story. You have a normal man who believes in something or someone so much that he is willing to step against the tide and do something he felt was right for him and his family. He is told that man has become arrogant, corrupt and basically has infested the earth so there needs to be a cleansing. Noah builds this ark to carry his family and animals safely forward, to preserve that which is considered non-damaging, in spite of the ridicule of his neighbors and family. He holds fast to his belief and gathers the animals together to preserve them and boards them all up until the time when it is safe again.  When all is done, his god makes a covenant with "every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth"(Gen 9:16) that the floods will not ever destroy the earth again and his promise was the rainbow, a symbol of peace and harmony.

So, I see much to be learned from this.  I see that if I stand by my beliefs than I can preserve the future of this earth for the next generation. I see that through all of our efforts we can save some of what may be lost because of our arrogance in the past. And everytime I see a rainbow, I remember the magic that is held in this world and see the promise of a new day. I look at us here in druidry and say, are we not the present day Noahs? Are we not attempting to stop the destruction of this generation and replant, preserve and heal the earth to the best of our abilities? Are we not sometimes going against the flood of opposition, the ridicule of others who do not see the need to stop the pillage of this world?

This story is not that different than many of the antediuvian tales of cleansing by water. And yep, Noah was a druid. (Yes, I can see druidry in pretty much anything I want! )

[Lady Nimue]

Kat Lady...per usual, you are brilliant....and Guardian, no need to apologise for your prior post, Im glad to have you in the discussion.

[Lily]

There is another theory that the flood myth might have described a catastrophic event in the Bosporus, where the mediterranean sea broke through and raised the level of the Black Sea by several meters. Remains of prehistoric villages below the waterline have been found.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... cksea.html

http://www.museum.upenn.edu/Sinop/Post_article.htm

Now since lots of cultures have flood myths (see among the first link I posted in this thread) it just shows how dramatic the forces of nature are, such that myths abound about them.

[Azrienoch]

There is another theory that the flood myth might have described a catastrophic event in the Bosporus, where the mediterranean sea broke through and raised the level of the Black Sea by several meters. Remains of prehistoric villages below the waterline have been found.

Heh, that's what I said.

[Lily]

I seem to have episodes of analphabetism. Sorry Az.

[Lady Nimue]

.

[dreamguardian]

Sorry Guys I've just stumbled on this old thread.

I wonder if there is some esoteric meaning in the ark, freemasonry seems to think so, royal 'arch/ark' degrees, rites etc. I also read it could have purely geometric connotations associated with the old mystery schools. Symbolic ark anyone? anyway am off 2 read them, pce

Th e Ark Mariner's degree centre's around the Noah story but is a mythical ceremony of personal attributes to strive after.

The Royal Arch Degree has nothing to do with Noah's Ark. The Royal and Select Masters Degree's, which the Royal Arch is part, is to do with the Arc of the Covenant.

Peace

Rob