Can someone help me say...

[Willowhawk]

Blessings of flame and wave?

I've got the bendithion part down...

I don't mean to be lazy. I just can't get hold of the construction yet.

Many many thanks!



Willow[/i]

[Miranda]

 Hi! I found these on that BBC website, hope it helps!


flame , n , fflam (nm,fflamau)  
to flame , vb , ffaglu (vb) CONJUGATE , fflamio (vb) CONJUGATE  


wave , n , ton (nf,tonnau)  
wave (of sound), n , seindon (nf,seindonnau)  
wave (of hand), n , chwifiad llaw (nm)  
to wave (swing; wield), vb , chwifio (vb) CONJUGATE  
to wave (a hand), vb , codi llaw (vb)  
wave (of enthusiasm), n , hwrdd o frwdfrydedd (nm,hyrddiadau o frwdfrydedd) , pwl o frwdfrydedd (nm,pyliau o frwdfrydedd)  
wave (Music), n , seindon (nf,seindonnau)  
to wave (undulate), vb , tonni (vb) CONJUGATE

[Willowhawk]

So... um... bendithion o fflam a ton

Probably not...

[~*Blackbird*~]

Actually Willowhawk you are pretty much spot on well done!You mutate the "ton" to "don" after "a" to get:

"Bendithion o fflam a don"

Sam

[Megli]

No you don't. 'a' causes aspirate mutation:
'bendithion fflam a thon' is the correct version.

you don't need a specific word for 'of' in this construction.  But if you put the 'o' in, it means 'blessings from flame and wave'
M

[~*Blackbird*~]

"Thon" is correct yes!(Treigliadau meddal Sam!tut tut)How embarrassing!
The mutations can be quite tricky as there are three ways of mutating-I only know them as Meddal-soft,Caled-hard and Trwynol-nasal (I don't know how you call them in English) and I can't remember them all-I just go by what sounds correct to me,but even us Welsh don't always get it grammatically correct lol!

However, if you don't put "o" in the sentence you get "Blessings flame and wave" which is incorrect when considering what Willowhawk is trying to say. "O" in Welsh means both "from" and "of".In this sense it would be taken as "of".

I've been told that Welsh is a very hard language to learn because of endless words that have two or more meanings,mutations,exceptons to the rules,pronunciation and the many ways of saying things.Aswell as the slang,and formality of saying things lol.

Anyway, "Bendithion o fflam a thon" is correct I promise lol.

Sam

[Megli]

Ok I defer to you as a native speaker! technically the criterion is whether the second noun is as it were a slice taken out of the first, like 'gormod o waith' 'too much of work', but 'car Dafydd' 'the car of Dafydd', with no 'o'. i had read 'blessings of flame' to mean not 'blessing from or [out] of flame' but the blessing inherently belonging to flame.
all the best!
M
PS Breton and cornish have 'hard' mutation too!

[~*Blackbird*~]

Hehe bless you!

Ah right I see where you're getting confused!This is what I mean by Welsh being difficult lol.You are right in what you say above,with the "gormod o waith"-that's very well done.
However, "car Dafydd" is more like "Dafydd's car" rather than "the car of Dafydd".This is why there is no need for the "o" here.If something is belonging to someone or something,there is no need for the "o"as this would be misinterpreted as something coming from something or someone.(If that makes sense).

Now if it was blessings belonging to the flame it would read as "Bendithion y fflam" because flame is a noun whereas Dafydd is a pronoun,so you'd have to include "y" to state the flame:-"THE flame's blessings". (otherwise it'd be "flame blessings")

i.e Cadair Sophie-Sophie's chair.         Olwyn y car-the car's wheel     pen y dyn-the man's head.

Basically if something hasn't been given a name-always put the "y" to state the object.

Anyway,as Willowhawk stated Blessings of flame and wave-the blessings are coming from the flame/wave so here is where the "o" is needed to state this.

Do you understand? It's one thing to grow up speaking a language and then trying to explain it and I'm rubbish! lol.

Sam

[Megli]

of course! i teach medieval welsh (see the dafydd llwyd thread) and my grasp of the modern idiom isn't always perfect!

thanks!
M

[Willowhawk]

You are both wonderful, and I do so thank you!! That lenition... eek! Hard to grasp is an understatement...

So...

Bedithion o fflam o thon!



Willow

[~*Blackbird*~]

Lol I wouldn't go as far as saying wonderful-growing up speaking two languages means that using words like 'lenition' or 'aspirate' draws a blank until you tell me you're talking about mutations!And trying to explain to someone about horizontal and only being able to remember 'llorweddol' can be quite amusing-a result of my education being entirely in Welsh lol. :P

But yeah,once you get past all the technicalities and are able to speak it fluently-it's a wonderful feeling and I wouldn't change it for the world Good luck!

Bendithion mwyaf ddisglair i chi-Brightest blessings to you,

Sam

[Rob]

What language is that?
i would love to learn irish-gaelic or some type of celtic language please please please dirict me to a book or online program. i cant afford a private toutor or somthing

[~*Blackbird*~]

It's Welsh

I've heard Irish Gaelic is harder than Welsh :S so you might want to try Welsh to see how it goes?

http://www.druidry.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=15142
you'll find a few helpful links here.Otherwise look out on amazon for Welsh learning books or CD's and stuff!"Y Lolfa" books are good to learn from I think.

Sam
http://www.s4c.co.uk/cymraeg/e_main.shtml  check this out aswell.Might be handy.If I think of any more I'll let you know!

[Priscilla]

What language is that?
i would love to learn irish-gaelic or some type of celtic language please please please dirict me to a book or online program. i cant afford a private toutor or somthing

Pfff... that is something. I am dutch and a student of the University. I minor in Celtic language and culture. I did Medieval Welsh 1 and it is difficult. My teacher told me there are no courses in Medieval Welsh (but there are in Modern Welsh). You cannot learn Medieval Welsh without a teacher, but in a specialized bookstore you can buy books to learn Welsh. Try amazon. And good luck!