Pagan classical music

[Moonweed]

I agree with all of Pobble's last post. His later symphonies are very compact and neo -classical. But there is always an element of the natural world in them especially the dark forests as epitomosed by Tapiola.

[Saille-Panthera]

Hi all,
what a lovely, inspiring thread
I've just played 'Symphony Fantastique' in a somewhat mutilated wind orchestra version (as beautiful as we may play, somethings you just cannot play right without violins and stuff ) I'm not sure it is a really pagan theme, more of a delerium of the composer based on the ideas of hell planted by the christian church, but very beautiful music to play!
As for the planets, which we accidentaly are going to play next fall, I think there are more pagan aspects...

Let me see, how about Daphnis and Chloe, by Ravel? And Claude Debussy wrote some paganish pieces, cannot think of a name right now though. I also have played 'air pour charmez un lezard' (air to charm a lizard with) by, again, name is on the tip of my fingers, but not coming through, anyway, its a beautiful solo piece for flute.

I also think that a dutch composer of this time, Johan de Meij, definitely qualifies when you talk about pagan music. He writes mostly for wind orchestras, although I believe his first symphonie (lord of the rings) is now available for symphony orchestra as well. One of his pieces I've played once is called 'La Quintessenza', a piece wich is based on an earlier piece called 'Pentagram', if that ain't pagan, then I'm not a pagan, lol. Other beautiful wind orchestra pieces with pagan themes: Bacchus on Blue Ridge, fabulous piece by Horowitz, Pagan Dances by barnes, although that one is not altogether genuine, since it has a human sacrifice in it  :shrug:  :huh:

Blessings,
Saille

[syrbal]

Hi,

I'm surprised there are only a couple of operas mentioned here, when so many operas are based on pagan themes: Gluck's Orfeo and Euradyce, Verdi's Aida, Debussy's Pelleas and Melisande, Bellini's Norma (she's a druidess for heaven's sake!) - and I've just found Gilbert and Sullivan's The Pretty Druidess or The Mother, the Maid, and the Mistletoe Bough and Extravaganza which I'd not heard of before. Anyone know of it?

There are also quite a lot of Greek and Roman themed operas from Mozart and Monteverdi, Purcel's Dido and Anneas, Richard Strauss's Elektra and Ariande auf Naxos and so on. I think opera must be one of the richest veins of pagan-themes in music of all.

[shirley mclaren]

"On hearing the first cuckoo in Spring" by Delius

BB

Shirley

[Moonweed]

Yes.Anything by Delius really. And on the subject of opera there is Wagner of course with his Ring Cycle.

[Megli]

Didn't Bax do lots of celtic twilight stuff?
m/|\
GREAT thread btw! thanks so much to everyone who's posted, Ive learned a lot.

[meghanst]

If I was to choose a classical composer who came closest to my feelings of pagan spirituality, it would be Erik Satie. His Gymnopedies is said to be inspired by dance in ancient Greece performed at the Gymnopaedia festivals of Apollo at Sparta, with nude boys using movements from wrestling and boxing to create a graceful dance to flute or lyre music.  Gnossiennes appears to be an allusion to the palace of Knossos in Crete and the legend of Ariadne and the Minotaur.

Satie’s music is probably played more and heardby more people than any other classical composer given it is heard as background music in tens of thousands of shopping complexes around the world. The first Gymnopedie was played by Blood Sweat and Tears in the early 1970s taking Satie to cult status. Satie’s music is described as having an air of timeless mystery. He created the first minimalist composition (Vexations – 18 notes to be played 840 times) and laid the foundations for the hypnotic minimalist and trance music of Steve Reich, Philip Glass and the many who followed. Philip Glass could also be considered as a classical pagan composer with his opera Akhnaten.

Satie ran his own church for many years (of whom he was the only member) which, given his amazing sense of humour, was probably a send up of religious institutions. His is wonderful music to meditate to and has taken me on some amazing journeys.

You can read more about Satie at: http://www.af.lu.se/%7efogwall/satie.html and two great books on Satie are Erik Satie by Rollo Myers and Erik Satie by Alan Gillmor.

[meghanst]

Many aspects of Hinduism are very close to Druidism with Hinduism normally considered pagan by Christianity. I find the practice of both Druidism and Hinduism extremely compatible. Indian classical music, although it involves following strict rules, is mostly improvisation and it is said to be the highest spiritual achievement in that to play truly inspired music the composer must be in a trance state to be able to become a vessel for divine inspiration. It is believed that this inspired classical music takes one closer to God than any other practice.

[pobble]

Believe it or not, I've been returning to look at this thread quite frequently, but I've been having trouble putting my finger on why I'm still feeling my original intent in starting the thread isn't fully addressed (except perhaps by Meghan's suggestion of Indian classical music, which I don't really feel very close to, myself).   I think the issue I'm having with many of the suggestions here is that although many of the suggested works allude to pagan themes, I can't help but feel they are seen from the outside looking inwards.  How many of the composers were pagan themselves, expressing their own spirituality?  Of course, for some Christians and others there may be an element of pagan spirituality within the whole, but perhaps I wonder about the difference between imagining the supposed spirituality of someone in another culture and having that spirituality oneself.  Thus Bellini's Norma is perhaps a Druidess imagined and envisioned by a Christian.  Just pondering.  I wonder if the basic issue is that culturally, Western classical music simply arises from a historical place and period when Christianity was utterly predominant.  So perhaps we need to be writing neopagan classical music in the future!

[meghanst]

What about Bartok? Much of his work was based on traditional music rather than church music. He also broke the rules of consonance-dissonance that were so important in church music. I believe that much of the traditional music we hear today is a distorted form of pagan music, distorted because when it was written down, it was written to conform to Western classical time signatures and key signatures. This is stated by a number scholars in regard to Irish traditional harp music.  

We owe Edward Bunting a great debt for his notation of traditional harp music at the Belfast Harpers’ Festivals and in his travels around the countryside in the late 1700s /early 1800s because the music was on the verge of disappearing. However it is commonly accepted he would have had extreme difficulty notating it accurately even though he went to great effort to provide additional details about the music and playing techniques. It is very unlikely it is represents as played just because our system of music notation was created for the notation of Western classical church music.

[eruanto]

Don't think anyone's mentioned John Ireland yet - not even that Sue Aston essay. While he was by no means wholly Pagan, there was definitely a strong streak there. The Sussex landscape was a great source of inspiration for him; Legend is inspired by Chanctonbury Ring, and the Piano Concerto also has something to do with the area. There are also pieces called Amberley Wild Brooks, Equinox, The Forgotten Rite, Downland Suite etc...

[mwyalchen]

I think the issue I'm having with many of the suggestions here is that although many of the suggested works allude to pagan themes, I can't help but feel they are seen from the outside looking inwards.  How many of the composers were pagan themselves, expressing their own spirituality?

You could take a look at Debussy - he was a Rosicrucian, and used numerology to devise structures for some of his larger works. Specifically pagan interest: Syrinx (flute solo) was written as a depiction of Pan for a theatre work by a friend (I sometimes use this piece as an evocation of Pan; though unfortunately the idiom's a bit modern for the typical druid camp!); L'Apres-Midi d'un Faun - maybe not specifically pagan, but based on classical mythology, and portraying a somewhat un-Christian attitude to to sexuality; some of the piano preludes also depict pagan themes (La Danse de Puck; Danseuses de Delphe, Ondine, Canope.) Then there's the Six Epigraphes Antiques, originally for piano duet - the first is entitled "Pour invoquer Pan, dieu de vent d'ete", which is quite explicitly pagan!

[dreaming-bear]

Jupiter and Beyond/ Gyorgi Ligeti. It's on the soundtrack for 2001 A Space Odyssey.

Carl Orff/ Carmina Burana

(And here I step outside the thread of discussion.)

Classical music from other cultures:
Babatunde Olatunji/ Oba Igbo from the album Drums of Passion (The Invocation)
Jai Uttal/ anything from Kirtan, the Art and Practice of Ecstatic Chant

deebs

[shirley mclaren]

"The Lark Ascending" by Ralph Vaughan Williams
"On Hearing the first Cuckoo in Spring" by Frederick Delius -

Both are sublime.

BB

Shirley

[Ní Níall]

I sing classical music, mainly oratorio. One of my favourite arias that paints all sorts of pictures in my head is 'Where e'er you walk' by Handel.

'where e'er you walk, cool gales shall cool the glade
trees where you sit, shall crowd into a shade'

This well known aria is from the oratorio/opera, 'Semele' - about the seduction of a priestess of Zeus by Zeus himself - she then fell pregnant with Dionysus, the Greek god of wine.

For the plot, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semele .

When it was originally performed, 'Semele' caused outrage among the Christian establishment due to its unashamedly pagan themes and as a consequence fell out of favour until many years later.

NiNiall

[syrbal]

I sing classical music, mainly oratorio. One of my favourite arias that paints all sorts of pictures in my head is 'Where e'er you walk' by Handel.

Oh, I love that aria! I didn't know the plot of Semele, thanks for the info. BTW, who sings the aria?

[Ní Níall]

Hi Syrbal,

The aria is sung by Jupiter in Act II Sc 3.

Here is the libretto, if you would like to read it.

http://www.karadar.com/Librettos/handel ... #ACT%20TWO

Jupiter is a part for a tenor, but as you probably know, it's often sung by counter-tenors or altos (i.e. me!) as their party (or Eisteddfod?) piece.

Peace,

NiNiall

[queenbeebear]

Lovely thread folks! I am a musican, although not classical, but I think that which inspires and motivates us within music is probably the same all cultures over, Love, Death, nature, Myth, and we ascribe that connection to whichever creator inspires our life. I doubt that Pagan classical music is observable as a ouvre by itself, as perhaps all music is spiritual in its conception? Much like other areas in life, we see great spirit in all things. I find it in "Lark Ascending", and the "Enigma Variations" and breathtaking devotional works by Thomas Tallis.
Blessings
QBB
XXX

[Sophia Zoe]

Saille=Panthera mentioned Debussy. In my mind an archetypal pagan classicist. Claire de Lune, Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun, Reverie, wonderfully evocative of the mystery of nature.

Peace and blessing,
SZ

[Whitemane]

A lot of Sibelius' programmatic music is derived from ideas in the Finnish national epic, the Kalevala, and that is a wonderful mythology. Some, like the Oceanides, are derived from Greek mythology.

Even though he was seen as a nationalist composer and was important to the nationalist movement, he was actually of Swedish descent, and spoke essentially no Finnish.

Lots of magical moments in there though. My favourite is a few bars in the first movement of the Fifth Symphony. It makes me think of the first sunrise man ever saw. The sunrise in "Night Ride and Sunrise" is amazing too.