Altram Tige Dá Medar

[Abhaill]

Is anyone familiar with this story?  I'm using Lilian Duncan's translation from Ériu 11, 1932, but I also have M.E. Dobbs' translation from ZCP XVIII, 1930.  I believe these are the only two translations available of this text, and I'm not quite at the level yet where I can translate the whole thing myself.

A fascinating story to be sure.  I'm wondering though, has anyone come across a similar story elsewhere where a member of the Tuatha Dé Danann is converted to Christianity?  I can't recall another story where this occurs, and I find that intriguing.  I was hoping those of you who have more experience than I with reading Old Irish MSS (I've only been studying the language for a year) might be able to refer me to a source I may have overlooked!

I find the concept itself - a member of the tribes of the gods 'converting' to Christianity - very interesting, and as far as I've seen it's unique to this story.  Does anyone else share my interest in this tale?

~ Abhaill

[Megli]

Yes!!!! yes yes yes. Not read it myself in ages - isn't there a story about a woman called Li Ban/Muirgen who lives as a mermaid for a while before being converted to Christianity and becoming a saint? What the hell is it in...

welcome to the board!!

Where are you studying Celtic?

Mark /|\

[Abhaill]

Thanks for the welcome, Mark!  I studied/study at the University of Toronto (UofT).  I actually graduated back in 2000, but for the past couple of years I've been taking courses part-time.  I'd like to apply for the MA program at the Centre for Medieval Studies at UofT next year.  My topic for that is the early Irish perception of colour, specifically relating to the dyeing of textiles.  I wrote a research paper last year as a precursor.

But another project I've been seriously considering is working with this text.  I was steered toward it when I was doing my undergrad work, and it's stuck with me.  I think I'd like to try my hand at translating it, even if it's only for my own sake.  I studied Modern Irish for 2 years as well, but there's something about the Old that really gets inside me and burns.  I need a lot of practice, however!

Can you recall if the story you mentioned is contemporary with this one at all?  Contemporary or earlier would be great.  Even so, it's a rare theme to encounter in the stories.

Something else I love about this story is Manannan's role in it!  He has such a central, active part to play in the plot.  I remember being so excited when he's speaking to Oengus about the 'charm' with which he can expel Ealcmar from the Brugh and the scribe of the MSS writes, 'and we shall pass over the lay here.'  What?!  Give me that lay!  :-)  

I suppose it's all for the better though.  We don't need academics walking around with that kind of power, expelling one another from libraries and campus grounds.

I'm glad you share my enthusiasm!

~ Abhaill

[Megli]

Thanks for the welcome, Mark!  I studied/study at the University of Toronto (UofT).  I actually graduated back in 2000, but for the past couple of years I've been taking courses part-time.  I'd like to apply for the MA program at the Centre for Medieval Studies at UofT next year.  My topic for that is the early Irish perception of colour, specifically relating to the dyeing of textiles.  I wrote a research paper last year as a precursor.

wow sounds interesting - i wrote a thesis on male beauty and the gendering of the body in early irish saga, part of which was on the suspersaturation of colour in depictions of beautiful men. There's an important little article somewhere on colour-words in celtic, I'll have to see if I can dig it out for you. Did Ann Dooley teach you? She of the Oxford World's Classics Acallam na Senorach fame?

But another project I've been seriously considering is working with this text.  I was steered toward it when I was doing my undergrad work, and it's stuck with me.  I think I'd like to try my hand at translating it, even if it's only for my own sake.  I studied Modern Irish for 2 years as well, but there's something about the Old that really gets inside me and burns.  I need a lot of practice, however!

Very interesting idea...I will try and find the Li Ban/Muirgen text for you.
Old Irish is sooooo amazing. I'm teaching Scela Mucce Meic Datho at the moment.

Can you recall if the story you mentioned is contemporary with this one at all?  Contemporary or earlier would be great.  Even so, it's a rare theme to encounter in the stories.

Argh I can't off the top of my head - i'll find out.

Something else I love about this story is Manannan's role in it!  He has such a central, active part to play in the plot.  I remember being so excited when he's speaking to Oengus about the 'charm' with which he can expel Ealcmar from the Brugh and the scribe of the MSS writes, 'and we shall pass over the lay here.'  What?!  Give me that lay!  

 

Yes!! good old Manannan. He's become fully part of the TdD by this stage hasn't he?

I'm glad you share my enthusiasm!

I really do! I did an Mphil in Celtic (welsh, irish, scottish gaelic) and am now in the last year of my PhD.

Have you see David Stifter's 'Sengoidelc': it's a new instroduction to learning Old Irish and has entertaining pictures of sheep in it!

There's also Kim McCone's new book 'A First Old Irish Primer', and also Wim Tigges book on Old Irish. It suddenly seems to have become a growth area...!

best wishes
M /|\

[Abhaill]

wow sounds interesting - i wrote a thesis on male beauty and the gendering of the body in early irish saga, part of which was on the suspersaturation of colour in depictions of beautiful men. There's an important little article somewhere on colour-words in celtic, I'll have to see if I can dig it out for you. Did Ann Dooley teach you? She of the Oxford World's Classics Acallam na Senorach fame?

Was the article by Heidi Lazar-Meyn?  If so, not only did I read the article, but also obtained a copy of her MA thesis on the subject, and met up with her over a cup of coffee to discuss the matter!  She's in Toronto these days.  But perhaps it's another article you were thinking of?  And yes, I have been priveleged to be taught by Ann Dooley for many of the past 10 years.  Her next book is due to be out in November actually, called Playing the Hero: Reading the Tain Bo Cuailnge.  I can't wait to read it.  When I was working on my Colour thesis last year she was my advisor, and she was finishing up the editing process of the MS for this book.

Very interesting idea...I will try and find the Li Ban/Muirgen text for you.
Old Irish is sooooo amazing. I'm teaching Scela Mucce Meic Datho at the moment.

We worked from Quin's workbook, Strachan/Bergin's Paradigms and their Stories From the Tain.  So that's the only MS text I've worked with formally in class, but as an amateur I've collected as many books in Old Irish as I can afford.  So I have the Metrical Dindchenchas, Auraicept na n-Eces, and Eugene O'Curry's Lectures on the MSS, so far.  Plus a whole lot of photocopies and secondary material.  I also bought Thurneysen's Grammar and the DIL.  This year I'm taking two half courses Ann's teaching in Medieval Irish Poetry.  The first is in translation, but we'll get back into ye Old language in January.

Yes!! good old Manannan. He's become fully part of the TdD by this stage hasn't he?

I'm not sure about that actually.  Whenever the guests at the Brugh are referred to there seems to be a distinction made between the TdD and the nobles of Emain Ablach.  I don't have time to look it up just at this moment, but I will.

Have you see David Stifter's 'Sengoidelc': it's a new instroduction to learning Old Irish and has entertaining pictures of sheep in it!

There's also Kim McCone's new book 'A First Old Irish Primer', and also Wim Tigges book on Old Irish.

I haven't seen these books, but I'll keep a look out for them.  Anything to give me more practice, you know?  Thanks for the head's up!

~ Abhaill

[Beith]

aha! another one! Hi Abhaill!
Greetings from another old Irish student to another (err...maybe I should rephrase that!)

Can I recommend Anthony Green's nice little book of verb paradigms with a glossary in the back. A handy number when you need to sort out your B1s from B2 B3 verbs etc! McCone is good but very "heavy" I think. Also he recategorizes the verb classes into S, W, H (Strong, weak, Hiatus) with numbers in each class, which takes a bit of getting used to if you're more used to Thurneysen's classification.

Re: access to books/texts  - do you already know of ISOS? (Irish Script on Screen). This project run via DIAS (Dublin Institute for Advanced Studies) takes high resolution digital scans of the MSS and they are available free online. http://www.isos.dias.ie/  If you are a registered researcher you can apply for even higher-res access to enable you to view the scripts in very high magnification. Also University College Cork have an excellent website (I think Kernos posted a link to it somewhere in this forum) ....these are some means to gain access to source material if you wish to do some translating of your own!

Also if you are in a Uni, maybe you can get access to journals like Eriu, Celtica etc? That would defray the costs outlaid on books as so much wonderful info is contained within.


Good luck with the courses. Looking forward to chatting here with you and Megli ...."cechtar nathar fria shaindán" !  
Beith

[Abhaill]

Hi Beith!  Strong and weak verbs I'm used to, but hiatus?!  Do they take extended holidays or frequent breaks from the rules?  

I came across the ISOS link in another thread around here somewhere, thank you, and bookmarked it immediately.  How does one become a registered researcher?  I have a digital copy of the Book of Kells from Trinity College, which they sell on CD at the bookstore, and I'm fairly certain Oxford has a selection of MSS online as well.  But I don't remember how hi-res those pictures were.  I'll take a look for the UC Cork website as well.  Thanks for the suggestions, and the paradigm book recommendation as well.

The library at UofT does have Eriu and Celtica, as well as Revue Celtique and Zeitschrift fur Celtische Philologie.  I'm very well acquainted with 'my' library, yes indeed.  :-)  I've read a fair number of threads in this forum involving you and Megli, and I look forward to joining in, in however limited a fashion as I am able.

~ Abhaill

[Beith]

Hi Abaill!

nice to hear from you!

Hiatus verbs are those that have a di-syllabic vowel hiatus when you add an ending consisting of a vowel and consonant to the stem of the verb,
eg. substantive verb attá - 1st plural independent form is attaam, 2nd pl attaiid/attaaid, 3rd plural is attaat (hiatus aa)
      Consuetudinal present bí  eg. 3rd singular is biid (hiatus i:i), 2nd pl conjunct - bíid, 3rd pl absol biit conjunct -biat etc.
The hiatus verbs are divided upon the class of the stem final vowel into H1 (a is stem final vowel, eg. ata) H2  (i is final vowel, such as in bí) H3 (where o, u, e are stem finals eg. as-luí -escapes)

so yep those that go on holliers!

I usually use Thurneysen's classification for Strong and Weak verbs and under his system the Hiatus verbs are classed under AII (equiv to H1 - stem final in a), AIII (equiv to H2, stem final in i -H2, and stem final in o,u,e - H3 under McCone)

Then of course you've got Strachan with the As and Bs backwards to Thurneysen's and McCone's S H and Ws! Jaysis lads! PICK ONE SYSTEM AND STAY WITH IT!

Re: ISOS - ah good - you found the link already. I posted it somewhere here or in Celtic studies general forum previously. If you're a student at uni I think you just need to contact them and state that you need the high-mag resolution and they will give you a password. though you may need a letter from your supervisor. Not sure.  The scans are amazing. You can sometimes see more on those than on the scripts themselves (depending of course on the light in the room and the mandatory use of a plastic veneer on the MS which can reflect light back to you).

Re: UCC - I posted a link somewhere in this forum to their site and Kernos also posted one I think. I just don't have it to hand right now but have a scroll down in here and you'll prob find them there.

Also the RIA sell cd-roms of various MSS. They have a lovely one of the Cathach of Colm Cille 6th C - the oldest book in Irish as far as I know. It used to be carried 3 times sunwise around a battle field by the O Domhnaill's (if I recall the clan name correctly!) as it was believed to give them victory in battle. It's now in the RIA library in a case. Beautiful! They also have Book of Ballymote MS and I'd say a fair few others. But as all of these are free on ISOS catalogued under their various libraries, you can save on outlay there!

That's good your library is well stocked! Sounds like you have plenty of reading material anyway!

Looking forward to chatting with you. We can probably all help each other out from time to time with our researches and learning. I need to sit down and do some serious revision. It's amazing how it all empties out of the head or gets confined to dark recessess after a few month's break!

All the best up there in Canada, from across the pond in Éire.

Beith