The Germanic Path

[Eilthireach]

Hello Alasdair!

Valholl was "wrongly transliterated into English in its genitive plural form as Valhalla".  Has anyone else heard of this?  

This seems to be true. I have also found this information on the web. The original way of writing seems to be "Valhöll".
In modern German it is called "Walhall", but "Walhalla" is also used due to Wagner's operas.
The term clearly consists of "Val-, Wal-" (the slain, also in "Walstatt" (battlefield), "Walvater" (father of battle - Odin) etc.) and "Hall" which is simply the hall.    

To the second question, I think that the Celts and the Germanic tribes were, depending on the time and area, contemporaries.They traded and they married and it would be a surprise if they didn't also exchange ideas, even religious ideas. Iceland, for example, was settled from Norway as well as from Ireland. Dublin, the capital of Celtic Ireland, is a Viking foundation. In the ancient times, there were no walls between tribes and peoples and trade was more important than we would think today.
For example, Celtic nobility graves in Southern Germany contain wine vessels that were brought from Greece as early as 500 BCE over a distance of roughly 2000 km/ ca. 1300 mls. And the later insular Celts as well as the Germanic peoples, both had seagoing ships which made long range trading even easier.        

Best wishes, and enjoy your book!

Eilthireach /|\.

[Alasdair]

Thanks Eilthireach!  This is a bit frustrating to hear (That is, the wrong transliteration) because this false word has essentially been spread around.  Just another example of translation gone wrong.. .  I'll have to start proliferating the proper term and slapping my friends when they say Valhalla!!  Also, are there any pages on proper pronunciation you would recommend?

[Eilthireach]

Hello Alasdair!

I took note of one pronounciation page:

http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/articles/pronunc.html

Pronounciation is not one of my concerns, as modern German terms exist for most Germanic concepts. Maybe one of the few advantages of being a native German speaker.  :whistle:  

As for the names, well, you are right and if we know a correct term we should use it. But what counts in the end is the meaning that stands behind that term.
For example, in the Celtic traditions we have approximately 20 different ways to write Beltane, but as long as everybody understands what is meant, I don't see a problem.    
 
With greetings from beneath the Bavarian Alps,

Eilthireach /|\.

[DaRC]

Hi Alasdair,
                 a good source for references is John Lindow's 'Norse Mythology' ISBN 0-19-515382-0 which also gives English translation's of the meanings of the names.  They are good translations of the names, Valholl is 'Carrion Hall', whereas I prefer to think of it more poetically as the 'Hall of the Valiant' - that's probably because I am influenced by later romantic poetic visions than the dark humour of the skjaldic poets.

BTW I love Magnus Magnusson's (RIP) translations - he used to host a UK TV programme called Mastermind throughout my childhood - so I always hear his deep Icelandic voice in my head when reading his works.  I'm currently re-reading his translation of King Harald's Saga.

Cheers, Dave.

[Alasdair]

Thanks Eilthireach and DaRC!  Yes, I understand what you mean by pronunciation.  I just get a little frustrated, because I'll learn something in the "westernized" form, and then travel and be humiliated when I sound like a dumb American  :oops: .

[Lady Nimue]

Alasdair....

"A dumb American"...no, my fellow countryman, there is nothing dumb or shameful about being from America, even if we dont pronounce the Ancient tongues quite the way they were intended. Please be proud of all you are.

[Al Rischa]

Anyone who is following the Heathen path, or simply would like to know more try this link:

http://www.asatru-u.org/beginner/asau-beginner-outline.htm#part1G

If you already have a basic understanding you might want to skip the first few links, but they are worth a read anyways, hope this helps.

Al.

[Eilthireach]

A nice collection of links and much information for a "beginner's guide".

Thank you!

Eilthireach /|\.

[DaRC]

Al,

This makes it all too easy - it took me hours of surfing to find these links on the web

Cheers, Dave

[Father Lynx]

I haven´t read all of the posts here, so please forgive me if I say something that has been said before.  :)

There is much much more to explore in Germanic paganism than what is usually found in the Norse variation, which has become the template for modern practicioners of Germanic paths worldwide.
Much of the traditions in  the southern Germanic regions to which Germany belongs has never made it to the Asatru canon. In many regions people have worshipped deities that are not part of the "usual suspects" (Odin, Freya, Thor...).
IMO the Germanic traditions in Germany have a completely different feel than the "hammer-swinging, mead-drinking Vikingism" most consider to be Germanic paganism.
When exploring this path today we should not make the mistake of turning it into an easy-to-swallow, pre-packaged, one-fits-all tradition.

[Eilthireach]

Hello!

It is true that Asatru is the most popular neo-Germanic tradition while Anglo-Saxon Heathenism and the Southern Germanic tradition(s) stand a bit in the background.  This may have two reasons:

1. It were and still are Asatru organisations like The Troth who were most outspoken and worked towards making the Germanic Path(s) better known. There are a few Anglo-Saxon organisations working mostly in England, as for Germany I know only of a few regional groups with the exception of the Eldaring, which is associated with The Troth and calls itself an Asatru organisation, if I'm correctly informed?      

2. Asatru has a wonderful body of source texts with the Codex Regius and Snorri's Edda, while the Southern Germanic tradition(s) has the Nibelungenlied (which has a Scandinavian predecessor), customs and folk lore which often are very very regional and bits and pieces of other informations like runic inscriptions, fragments of texts etc. It certainly *is* a proud heritage, but also a very scattered one.

I am Southern Germanic myself and I do not support an unreflected absorption of Asatru as the sole Germanic path, but reconstructing a Southern Germanic spirituality or religion without borrowing material from Scandinavia will be very hard.

In the same way many continental Celtic pagans borrow elements of insular Celtic culture(s). It is the results that matter, in the end.

Eilthireach /|\.

[DaRC]

Hi Father Lynx,

it is true that the majority of lore comes from the Norse point of view - to me this seems to be reflected in an Odinist perspective or as you poetically describe as "hammer swinging, mead drinking".  
The traditions of the land and the place names of southern England don't include Odin so much - Thor, the Lord and Lady of the land are much more prevalent.   This, to me, suggests that different tribes and different classes of society looked to different gods this would have reflected in their portayals of the different gods.

If we assume that Woden/Odin was looked to by the warrior/kingly/earl class then it would have been their stories that were written down as they had the wealth and power.  I often wonder if the middle / farmer / carl class viewed Odin in the same way and looked to different gods and I imagine that the poorest class would have had different favourites - the Faroe Isles tale where it is Loki who saves the peasant child from the giant (and not Odin or Hoenir) may indicate this.  Once again to a farmer the Vanir gods would probably be much more important and Thor was always more a protector of the commoner.

It raises the point of the afterlife - if those who die in battle are split between Odin and Freyja do all the rest go to Hel's home?  
Do each of the god's homes contain those who attain their god's appreciation?

Cheers, Dave.

[Father Lynx]

Hi Dave and Eilthireach!

Maybe I´m naive (or the opposite), but do people really believe that after their death they are going to end up drinking mead with Odin or Freya? This seems like the pagan equivalent of the Christians´ old bearded man  sitting on a cloud...

I believe that the myths are true in a more poetic sense. IMO the gods are symbolic representations of great cosmic forces and I cannot really  imagine them as humans or human-like, except for purposes of magic and ritual.

It is actually not possible to reconstruct Germanic paganism without the Eddas, of course. Still, there are other sources as well, and they are worth looking at, especially when coming from the southern Germanic regions.

BTW, I recently learned that in the prose Edda Snorri speaks about the gods as human chieftains hailing from Turkey (Troy) and becoming the ancestors of the northern European tribes after their voyage north. In this version Thor is an ancestor of Odin and the other gods. What is interesting is that their birth and death dates are recorded in the family trees of different European aristocracies I found in the net!
I had never heard of this before and I found it rather intriguing. Why is this never mentioned in the mainstream mythology books? Does anyone know more about this?

[Kernos]

...I am Southern Germanic myself and I do not support an unreflected absorption of Asatru as the sole Germanic path, but reconstructing a Southern Germanic spirituality or religion without borrowing material from Scandinavia will be very hard...

As were my ancestors (from Stockach and Zweibrücken).

I find it quite difficult to distinguish Celtic from Germanic in what I call the Proximal Danubian region just as it is to separate Celtic from Thracian in the Distal Danubian region, though at least there is a growing literature in the latter, though most in Bulgarian and Hungarian.

Has anyone found any modern refs that relates to this.

[DaRC]

Hi Father Lynx,

my youngest son does however my personal view of the afterlife is that physically we return to the energy of the earth, intellectually our energy continues in the memories of those who knew us and spiritually, in a poetic sense, our energy goes on another great adventure (if we've lived an honourable life) which to the warrior class of our ancestors would have been to a meadhall.  

The theory about Odin etc... being chieftains from the East is one that Thor Heyerdahl (sp?) was investigating when he died.  The theory that the gods are previous exemplary chieftains/leaders/people is common - I've forgotten what it's called (I'm at home with 'flu so my brain's a bit foggy).  I think Joseph Campbell mentions this in his books - particularly the hero with a thousand faces.  However, the theory with Snorri writing it in the Prose Edda is that he had to put it in to be able to write the Edda without the Church denouncing his book, although this theory is what Thor Heyerdahl was trying to disprove.  Saxo Grammaticus similarly writes the myths as stories about ancient kings.

It was usual for pre-Xtian kings to justify their position by tracing their lineage back to the gods.    The tribal names can be traced back that way too - the Saxons were from Seax (also a short sword)  who some think is the equivalent to Tyr.   The Angles/Ingvaeones to Ingvi-Freyr.  The British royal family can be traced back to Woden, if memory serves me right.

Cheers, Dave

[Father Lynx]

I guess what strikes me the most is that suddenly there is a connection between Germanic and minor asian traditions, which blends the two pantheons I predoninantly work with! I always considered them as related in a way because of the same Indo-European roots, but this is even closer!

[Eilthireach]

I find it quite difficult to distinguish Celtic from Germanic in what I call the Proximal Danubian region just as it is to separate Celtic from Thracian in the Distal Danubian region, though at least there is a growing literature in the latter, though most in Bulgarian and Hungarian.

Has anyone found any modern refs that relates to this.

Hi Kernos,

there seems to have been considerable intermingling between Celtic and Germanic tribes in the Roman Rhine provinces, to a degree where the Romans couldn't tell who is who, so we can assume that the same has happened elsewhere.

I don't know much about the Danubian regions, which is probably a pity... From what I have seen from a quick websearch, you are right that most publications are in Eastern European languages.

While English has become something of a second language for many  people in Western Europe, it is still quite "foreign" in Eastern Europe. I guess it will take the next generation of scientists to recognize that English is the modern "lingua franca".  

Eilthireach /|\.

[Eilthireach]

Hello everybody!

Two years have passed... In these times of economic crisis, funds for archaeology and historical science are usually the first that are cut. Nevertheless, are there any news on our Germanic ancestors?

Eilthireach /|\.

[Ade Sundog]

Hello Eilthireach! I have only just discovered this fantastic thread

Brilliant stuff . I hope i can contribute in some way .

Nice one

[Eilthireach]

Hello Wintersundog!

Thank you! This thread has started in 2004 and developed into a kind of inofficial Germanic subforum.

Now that I have the honour to be the host of this forum, and the thread having been dormant for a long time, I thought it would be time to reactivate it.

The Celtic Studies forum will remain a forum for Celtic Studies, but it can also be a place where we discuss the other roots of our common European heritage.

Eilthireach.