"Manly" Haircuts in Women Establishing Credibility

[Sanas Cuain]

al_iguana, I am curious to know how you know ancient Druids had short hair? beards are mentioned by some Roman sources - but i don't ever recall hearing anything about hairstyles.
On the subject of hair lengths, surely beauty is in the eye of the beholder! My wife has very short hair and is drop dead gorgeous!! I on the other haand have hair half way down my back, (Also drop dead gorgeous ! lol)

what the hell is a Boy haircut...? are we stuck in the 1940's the only thing worse than stereotypes, are those who stereotype people.

[al_iguana]

I can't remember, some old Welsh book. I'll look it up

--

edit:

this is the part: Written in the 1800, I've no idea what source they used:

In all things, therefore, they endeavored to draw a line between themselves and the mass. In their habits, in their demeanor, in their very dress.

They wore long robes which descended to the heel, while that of others came only to the knee; their hair was short and their beards long, while the Britons wore but moustaches on their upper lips, and their hair generally long.

Instead of sandals they wore wooden shoes of a pentagonal shape, and carried in their hands a white wand called slatan drui' eachd, or magic wand, and certain mystical ornaments around their necks and upon their breasts.

http://altreligion.about.com/library/te ... isis10.htm

and

There was also some special tonsure used by the Druids, which may have denoted servitude to the gods, as it was customary for a warrior to vow his hair to a divinity if victory was granted him. Similarly the Druid's hair would be presented to the gods, and the tonsure would mark their minister.

http://altreligion.about.com/library/te ... ruids3.htm

Now, ordinarily I wouldn't pay much attention to revivalist text, but I remember it put me in mind of something else I read, a long time ago (back when I was a teenager, long before I had an interest in drudry, so don't ask what it was lol). The preposition was.. you know how monks have a shaved spot on top, and hair around the sides? Well, that came about because it was opposite to how the druids wore their hair - shaved around the sides with a small tuft on top.  Otherwise the early Saints would be taken for druids. Or something. Of course, that too could be a revivalist notion, but it makes sense. I'll have to hit the early Christian texts and see if that is true

[Sanas Cuain]

As you say - I wouldn't pay much attention to revivalist text, it was all a little too romaticised, Tacitus nor Pliny mention hair in thier accounts of the Druids.

[al_iguana]

yeah, there isn't any mention of druid hairstyles in classical text. But we can infer it, from the controversy surrounding the hair of the early Celtic Christians:

Many of the early Christian churches were erected on pagan religious sites in Ireland, Scotland and Wales by converted Druids. Many of the early Christian Saints of Ireland, Scotland and Wales were in fact Druids, instructed by Druids or the children of Druids. The Christian Druids had the same social function of the Druids in Celtic culture of the pagan past. What is far more important is that the culture saw them as the same and this may explain the bloodless Christian conversion of the Celts of the British Isles. To state it simply, the Druids were a social caste and their conversion to Christianity did not change their social function in Celtic culture. Christ was simply the new Druid in charge!

The druid tonsure and habit of the monks of the Celtic Church was a bone of contention with Pope Gregory and it wasn't until the 8th century that the monks of Iona (Scotland) adopted the tonsure of Saint Peter. The Druid influence was so pervasive that the Roman Church accused the Celtic Church of the sins of Simon Magus (magic)."

The Britons were accustomed to shave the whole head in front of a line drawn from ear to ear, instead of using the coronal tonsure of the Romans. This, though there is no real evidence that it was the practice of the Druids, was nicknamed tonsura magorum. (Magus was accepted as equivalent to druid, and to this day the Magoi of Matthew 2, are druidhean in the Scottish Gaelic Bible.) Later, the Roman party jeered at it as the tonsura Simonis Magi, in contradistinction to their "tonsure of St. Peter".

http://ads.ahds.ac.uk/catalogue/adsdata ... 25_337.pdf
more info on the "Celtic Tonsure"

St Columba of Iona (featuring said hairdo): http://www.orthodox-iona.co.uk/St%20Cumein.jpg

[Sunath]

Lorraine, do you follow rock/metal at all? The guys often have hair longer than the girls! And I'm not talking about 80's glam metal either - I mean the modern, mainstream stuff!

Perhaps one reason that long hair is usually associated with women is because way back when in the day, women had the time to care for it. The men were always out fighting/drinking/working (usually in that order ) and were too busy to be bothered. It's a thought.

Two more points referencing earlier posts:

First - Jingle, are you serious? I know Allentown's a bit more of a major city than Williamsport is, but even so I've never seen anything like that around here. Not even one! That really surprised me.

Second - I, as well, have recovered/retained a few scant memories of what seem to be past lives, and as Isobel noted, they're all over the place. Two of them are moderately clear - one being some kind of military leader/knight in the middle ages, leading charges - and two (and I think immediately before this one) was female. The memories from the later confused me greatly and still continue to somewhat, although over the past three or four years I've finally sorted almost all of that out. It still annoys me occasionally.

Of course, the bits I have are nothing compared to my aunt. She firmly believes she was on the Titanic - she can tell you things about it not in any book, stories and stories. And she has an intense fear of water. Pretty much everybody but me thinks she's crazy, lol.

[Claer]

My husband has long hair, and I love it. He's not cut it since he was 12 (and yes, he is into metal). We've had people be rude enough to tell him to get it cut - I won't try and type his standard reply In comparison, I use to have no hair - and that too drew some negative comments. Its now shoulder length. It's a personal choice, and I for one will be very glad if all can move on from the stereotypes.

[Adele]

The guys often have hair longer than the girls! And I'm not talking about 80's glam metal either - I mean the modern, mainstream stuff!

I now feel really old....!

Seriously, in my experience of various kinds of workplaces, the employer wants the employee to be focussed on their job. Anything which distracts from that (all hail the human robot!) tends to be frowned upon, and this includes appearance.

While it may well be unfair, a woman who presents herself as more interested in fashion/make-up/hair than in getting on with the day's practicalities is unlikely to be promoted. Even if she works in an industry where appearances are part of the product, she still needs to present a business-like attitude at all times.

Long hair should be tied back neatly. It may not be to your personal taste, but if you want to get ahead in your career then you have to play the required mind games.

[Aylyn]

I think it has more to do ith the fact that long, free-flowing hair has been and still is associated with freedom and a certain "hippiness", which would suggest in a career job that the women in question is more focused on leisure than business. Therefore, long hair must be tidied up in buns...

BTW: This has been the fact for hundreds of years now - open hair was ony allowed for unmarried women, as soon as you were married it was tied back under a hood. In Germany, this coined the expression "Unter der Haube" (Under the hood) for being married. So there might be a historic point of view as well.

In personal experience, I have found that my long hair has not hindered me, as in my job you have to impress more with your CV. However, I am seriously thinking of getting rid of my long hair - it is just too tiresome to maintain, I am looking for something more manageable. And this might be the case for many careerwomen too - who has the time to look after long hair when the day has only so many hours you can work in???

As for the guys: There was a time when long hair was manly - see Samson losing his power when Delilah cut his hair. However, in modern armies it became more practical to shave the heads, as it kept parasites at bay. So nowadays soldiers tend to have short hair, and that has made the short hair manly....

[Kernos]

well...I can't resist...I have to quote from "Withnail and I"....

"I don't advise a haircut, man. All hairdressers are in the employment of the government. Hairs are your aerials. They pick up signals from the cosmos, and transmit them directly into the brain. This is the reason bald-headed men are uptight."

And thus, bald-headed females

I have had many, valuabl,e dominant females in my life. The most successful were those who maintained their feminine appearance and behavior. I would not tolerate those who acted like stereotypical dominant males (nor do I such males). As I grew more confident with myself, I became able to let them know how their behavior was being counter-productive.

[Mijan]

I would think that a group of people such as this wouldn't be so shallow that they would place ANY importance whatsoever on the length of a person's HAIR. But yet, here is a thread debating exactly that. How sad.

I keep my hair short and trim as a matter of simplicity and practicality. Consider this: How much water is used up in the time it takes to shower long hair, versus short hair? How many chemicals - shampoo, conditioner, styling agents - are released into the air and water to maintain long hair? Shouldn't a Druid have concern over such things? How much money is spent on those products? How much time is wasted on styling? Aren't there more important things to do?

What defines a "feminine" hairstyle, or a "masculine" one, for that matter? For ages, men were expected to keep their hair long, and also their beards. And then, it was expected for the "upper class" men to wear these ridiculous curly white wigs. The ONLY thing that defines feminine or masculine hairstyles is the EXPECTATIONS of society and popular opinion. Opinion, not truth. Do some people expect me to grow my hair long because I am female? I'm sure some of them do, but that doesn't make it a law, just an opinion.

So, given the "popular opinion" of modern society and what a woman should look like in the workplace... since when did a proper Druid bow to the whims of popular opinion?

If long hair makes a person comfortable in HER OR HIS own skin, then let that person keep long hair! If short, trim hair makes a person feel comfortable in HIS OR HER own skin, then let that person keep short hair! If a woman prefers an effeminate appearance, then that is fine. If a woman prefers a more gender-neutral or masculine appearance, what does it matter? I, for example, wouldn't be caught dead in a dress, makeup makes me feel like a circus clown, and clothes that emphasize my curves make me feel as if I were wearing a costume. Why should I dress that way at work? It would distract me from my job. (I'll also point out that I've insisted on short hair ever since the age of 5, and can remember telling the hairdresser that it wasn't short enough. At that age, it has nothing to do with social rebellion... just a person's true preferences.)

In the workplace, let a person be judged on merit and performance alone, in conjunction the presentation of a clean, acceptable appearance, not adherence to gender stereotypes of visual presentation. Of course, not everyone is so open-minded. Many people with more closed-minded social stigmas about gender roles and behaviours will judge people based on adherence to those stereotypes. If someone steps outside of those accepted norms, it can sometimes bring scorn and difficulty in job advancement. The question is: Will you accept a world OR workplace where people are forced to live by stereotypes in order to advance? If we accept the principle of "the Truth against the world", then why should we accept such an unfair view and unnecessary restriction from the world?

Kernos also referred to people's behaviours. There is a time and a place for individuals to step up and play Alpha Dog, regardless of gender. Sadly, the same behaviours that are lauded as "good leadership" from men are criticized as "bitchy pushiness" from women. Why are we unable to accept the same standards of behaviour for both genders? Of course, people of both genders do occasionally go overboard with super-dominant, top-dog attitudes, and neither one is acceptable in a team environment at work.

A person's haircut, however, has nothing to do with anything except how they prefer to wear their hair. Can't it be as simple as that?

[Saule]

I read through this whole line and I decided after all thats been said I'll say something too . I'm an engineer, and female. I wear my hair long (though not normally as long as it is right now, its driving me nuts..) and I have never found that anyone treats me different when my hair is up to when it is down. I wore it down for my last interview and pretty much alternate days up and down.

The leaders in my company are also quite random on hair styles. One is bald, Two have short to not so short hair and one has it to the middle of their back. Two men and two women. Each seems to get the respect they deserve and obviously made it to the top of the pile some how. Judging by what others have said though this not standard across the board. Maybe I'm just lucky but I really think society (at least around here) are moving away from the rash judgements based on appearance.

Particularly unkempt looks still have an undesirable effect on peoples opinions but I think that that is more because it shows the person doesn't care about themselves.

Maybe I'm just an optimist but I don't see the effects. Thats just me.

(and for the record, this is not argumentative, just a comment. I didn't get the feeling that this thread was a debate)

[*Coyote*]

Hi everyone.  Something this semester sparked an interesting thought.  I have two female professors.  Both have "boy" haircuts, meaning they are cut shorter than usual, and are kept trimmed around the edges.  One of my professors is probably in her mid 30's and, quite honestly, would be drop dead gorgeous if she grew out her hair  :oops: .  My question is this: Do you think that by having a "boy" haircut, it establishes their role in a more professional way, eliminating some of the sex-appeal of being an attractive female?  It confuses me either way, because although they are both professors, they could certainly dress in clothing that is still appropriate but fits their figure much better. What do you think?

I'll bet your prof is drop dead gorgeous anyway - shame you can't see it. Who are you to say that they could dress better, in figure hugging clothing? Why? So that you can look at their bodies better? I think that the question really is - why do you think that long hair is attractive? Why do you think women should dress in a certain way? What is making you feel judgemental about someone's appearance?

[halleyween]

since I was in junior high, I have had short hair - like pixie style, though as of more recently, it's become the 1920s style short "tom boy" haircut, sometimes long enough for me to create a curl on the cheek. This last winter, I let my hair grow out, much to my annoyance, and then began, with the help of my beau, working/braiding dreadlocks but, the last couple of weeks, they were rubbing on the back of my neck, and so I had to get everything hacked off again.

I have always been a short haired person. Can't stand to have the hair rubbing on the back of my neck, etc. Maybe I am just weird. I don't know if I would look better with shorter or longer hairs, because it's been such a long time since I have had short hair.

Maybe its just for comfort preference instead of some secret, subtle (possibly Masonic) reasoning why they have their hair docked.

Oh, and on the note of short hair, one of my fellow Revs that I work with, keeps his hair short and face clean-shaven because he believes that negativity in your life can grow in your hair, and that you need to cut your hair often to keep the negativity from weighing you down.

[Sanas Cuain]

Consider this: How much water is used up in the time it takes to shower long hair, versus short hair? How many chemicals - shampoo, conditioner, styling agents - are released into the air and water to maintain long hair? Shouldn't a Druid have concern over such things? How much money is spent on those products? How much time is wasted on styling? Aren't there more important things to do?

None of the above if you don't wash it......

[LadyCelt]

Or you don't have it...

[Cailleachna]

I have very long hair - always have had - which seems to require very little maintenance at all. I choose not to cut my hair short because I wouldn't feel like "me" anymore; my hair is a very sizeable part of my visual identity. I tie it up when it's hot or it might get in the way, I leave it loose most of the time, and all it needs is washing 1-2 times a week and conditioning maybe once a month (I use the most natural shampoo/conditioners I can find and don't use gel/spray or any other products, mainly because I hate the smell).

That said, I do currently dye it orange/red (using natural henna). This meets with lots of challenges from people who prefer my natural blonde, but I prefer the more striking picture the red creates.

I think what I'm trying to say is that for women (and increasingly for men) how the hair is worn is often an outward projection of the self, but be wary of interpreting that in a traditional or stereotypical way. Maybe their short cuts are for convenience. Maybe they feel MORE attractive that way, not less (and I do agree with one of the posters above that it's a bit presumptuous of you to comment on their not dressing/presenting themselves in the manner YOU would find most appealing...)!

[Saule]

That said, I do currently dye it orange/red (using natural henna).

Getting side tracked but what type of red/orange does it make? I've always wanted red hair but hair dye is so... awful, I'm reluctant. Do you have a picture (or a paint sample )?

Thanks

[wyeuro]

it's a bit sad for those whose criterion is whether it looks 'nice' or not, especially if a woman only looks nice if she looks 'female' - or should that read 'feeblemale'? may be corny, but what happened to the beauty of a soul shining through??? that's going to be just as easy to find no matter what the hairstyle.

also, regarding the toxicity of the chemicals, the complexity of the paraphenalia required to care for long hair, i'm astounded. i agree entirely that druids should be concerned about such things, but why would anyone think they are necessary, and not a frivolous option (not that frivolity is to be despised). my very long hair is washed only with home-made soap, and rinsed with rosemary tea. the water from my shower waters a walnut tree, a carob tree and a wormwood hedge. i haven't got a hair drier - i towel it dry and then use the sun or sit by the fire. daily maintainance consists only of brushing it and replaiting my love-locks every now and then - takes all of ten minutes if i'm slow.

not only physically clean, but spiritually clean as well. (not making any claims about neat though )

wyverne /|\

[Badger Bob]

Unfortunately I can't do long hair as I end up looking like Bob Ross (with a happy little cloud there my friend) so I go for short and frizzy. I tend to prefer women with bobs or long hair, although a couple of my girlfriends have had short hair (athletic climbing types) so I don't really mind one way or the other. The only thing I hate is to see very long fingernails, the kind that are three-quarters of an inch past the finger end and immaculately painted. We have a secretary who has to use a pencil to push the buttons on the telephone and regularly catches her nails in paper punches or staplers and I just think "why have you rendered your hands next to useless". I don't think it is sexy I just think "what an idiot". Short, neat nails, painted or not are the way to go as far as I'm concerned.

[Aylyn]

it's a bit sad for those whose criterion is whether it looks 'nice' or not, especially if a woman only looks nice if she looks 'female' - or should that read 'feeblemale'? may be corny, but what happened to the beauty of a soul shining through??? that's going to be just as easy to find no matter what the hairstyle.

It is not so much a question of the "soul shining through", but of actually believing it. I am very unsure about myself, so looking nice, with great clothes and a good hairstyle, makes me feel more confident about myself. Regardless of my soul's beauty, a good looking outer shell is a great help, for me.

As far as the hair products go: I envy you if you do not need them. I do - my hair, when long, is frizzy, untameable, splits and is overly dry. In order to get any kind of look, I need lots and lots of products (and no - I do not use hair dryers, it dries by itself). In the end, I gave up - my hair is now short, and a lot easier to keep. It is still very dry, but since it gets cut every few weeks, it looks better.

In general, I just love the sensual feeling of long hair, and the great things you can wear in it. I miss my long hair