The sick bed of Cuchulain "knives with green edges"

[Tuar_Ceatha]

Hi,

I beg your forbearance if this is in the wrong section.

I have been looking at the words of Fand in the Sick Bed of Cuchulain when she comments on the approach of Emer and her "posse" to Laeg:

"Knives, with green edges
Whetted, they grasp"

My question is: why or how do the knives have "green edges?"

Are these copper knives? Or are these brand new (i.e. green) knives that have been sharpened for the occasion?

Or something else?

I do appreciate any insight.

Tuar Ceatha

[Beith]

Hi Tuar Ceatha

Took me a long time to find it but I think I have the passage you quote above in English, from the Old Irish text.

In essence, I think the translation to "green" is a bit too modern and incorrect. The colour described is "glas" which can be used for a range of colours from blue to grey to green and in older texts it is more usually referring to a grey-blue colour, like that of iron metal or the sea on cloudy day. It only becomes more used generally for 'green' in modern Irish, so I think the translation you have is using 'glas' in a modern sense as 'green' but is not quite correct. As regards the second line, I did not find anything that refers "Whetted, they grasp" - so I think either this is a stylistic addition by the author of your translation of the tale, or perhaps they are translating from some other source where this line features. But it doesn't occur in the Old Irish text in the version below.

The tale "The sickbed of Cú Chulainn" is Serglige Con Culaind and it is found in Lebor na hUidre (The Book of the Dun Cow, circa 1100 AD). I am not sure if there's another version in the Yellow Book of Lecan. The language is Old Irish, tending towards the later end of the Old Irish period (prob about late 9th C, copied into the 12thC Lebor na hUidre, transcribing from an older text).

I spent some time and searched the online transcription of the Serglige Con Culaind on the CELT project website and eventually found the following lines related to the approach of Emer's troop, where Fand turns to Lóeg and describes what she sees.
http://www.ucc.ie/celt/online/G301015/text001.html

Unfortunately there is no online translation available so the below translation is my own.
There is however an edition of the tale in translation by the Celtic scholar Myles Dillon (reference below).

This is the relevant passage & my translated text beneath each paragraph in italics. The lines in blue are the ones relating to your english quote and line numbers are the line numbers in the online Old Irish transcription on CELT.

877]....Is and ro boí Cú Chulaind
688] & Lóeg oc immirt fhidchilli, & níro airigset na mná chucu. Is and
689] ro ráthaig Fand, ocus asbert fri Lóeg: ‘Fégsu, a Laíg, aní
690] atchíusa.’ ‘Cid insin?’ ar Lóeg. Dercais Lóeg, & is and ro rádi
691] ind ingen inso .i. Fand :

It is there Cú Chulainn was, and Lóeg, playing Fidchell and they did not notice the women coming towards them. Fand became aware of them and she said to Lóeg "Behold O Lóeg, the thing that I see".
"What is there?" said Lóeg. Lóeg looked and it is then the girl uttered this, that is, Fand:

692] .r.‘Fég, a Loíg, dar th' éis. Oc coistecht frit filet mná córi
693] cíallmathi co scenaib glasgéraib ina n-deslámaib co n-ór fria
694] n-uchtbrunnib. Cruth caín atchíchither amal tecait láith gaile
695] dar cathchairptiu. Glé ro soi gné Emer ingen Fhorgaill.’

Behold O Lóeg, in that place (over there). Listening to you( or paying attention to you) are women of good sense, with sharp-grey* knives in their right hands and gold on their breasts. The fair form that you will see when valorous warriors in (lit.'over') battlechariots come; clearly it changes to the form of Emer, Daughter of Forgall.

* Glas-géraib can be interpreted in different ways. Gér is the adjective 'sharp', 'keen' referring here to the edge of the blade of the knives in the womens' hands. Glas is used for a colour that can be a range of blue-grey-green, here referencing the grey colour of the iron blades of the knives. Glas could also be used here in the sense of the shining of armour or steel, the lustrous glint of metal. So it can be translated as "sharp grey knives" or perhaps as 'sharp glinting knives" etc. It's unlikely that the knives are 'green', this is a literal modern interpretation of 'glas' in modern Irish where it becomes used for green, but in older texts it describes ranges of colour in blue-green-grey spectrum, so I'd go with grey as it refers to the colour of metal.


Reference:
Myles Dillon, Serglige Con Culainn, Columbus, Ohio, 1941. Text from Lebor na hUidre version with a translation, notes, and a complete vocabulary.

I searched the Mary Jones Website which cites translations of tales from Celtic scholars and Serglige Con Culaind is there but the link does not often work. I'm not sure whose translation of SCC she's citing.
http://web.archive.org/web/200312051555 ... jemer.html
This is the extract:
"Fand then said ?Loég look behind you. Listening to you is a troop of clever, capable women, glittering sharp knives in their right hands and gold on their breasts. When warriors go to their battle chariots, a fair form will be seen: Emer daughter of Forgall in a new guise.? "

Hence I don't think there's any inference to green knives at all. Glasgéraib scenaib refers more likely to "grey sharp knives" or "glinting sharp knives" in the hands of the women of Emer's troop.

Best wishes
Beith

[Tuar_Ceatha]

I am currently enjoying "The Encyclopaedia of Celtic Myth and Legend" John and Caitlin Matthews.

In my version it is section 15, pg 195.

"This version is edited and translated by A. H. Leahy from the twelfth century "Lebor na hUidre," the Book of the Dun Cow (Dublin, 1929)"

Matthews does comment at length in the introduction about the source materials, the original transcription and the obvious flaws. Of course that's too lengthy to quote here, although I do admire the way the book is able to be clear and scholarly without boring one to tears. I like knowing about the flaws in the original manuscript, it keeps one from being too fundamentalist.

I do appreciate your take on the word "glas" and its changed usage over time. The use of "green" at that point baffled me, obviously, and I could think of no other obvious explanations except for copper material or newness. Knowing that it could refer to a gun metal color of the blade, or some other glinting color associated with strong fine metal work in the sun makes a great deal more sense.

Please do think to let me know if you find any other reference to metal or weaponry that uses the word "glas" I would love it if I had another usage in context to think about.

And thank you for your swift reply! I so enjoy knowing what materials other people have access to. A lot of what gets handed around seems to have no source.

Thank you again.

Tuar Ceatha

[Beith]

Hi Tuar Ceatha,

You're welcome. I'm not familiar with Leahy's translation but I think in the case of glas he's mistaken or interpreting too literally in modern usage of glas as green, which is out of context with the object to which it refers; and indeed the text itself in LU (Lebor na hUidre) doesn't mention anything even about "green edges" * or "whetted" - at least not the piece I identified as being most likely to correspond to your quoted lines - but if I'm mistaken in my correspondence then maybe there's evidence for it elsewhere, however I spent a good 4 hours on the text earlier today after reading your mail and I went through most of it and I didn't find a quote to match exactly Leahy'd translation. If I missed something I'd be happy to be corrected.

[*re: edges - there is mention of 'edge' (rim) of a shield (I think referencing CúChulainn's sheild in the paragraph quoting "co m-bil fhindruinni" - "with a rim of whitebronze") in a preceding paragraph, but not in the lines referring to the knives which they women hold].

If you want to post the lines before and after the "green knives ..whetted.." bit of Leahy's /Matthews' translation so we are sure about which piece of text he's translating, feel free. If I can see more info then I can check if it's indeed the piece I cited and translated in my post above.

I think you made a very good thesis as to a possible interpretation of what a 'green knife' could mean if indeed that was meant. As you suggest idiomatically 'green' could indicate newness, freshness or an actual colour green - like that of weathered copper; but I think the translation to green is 'faulty' in the first instance as it's a more modern translation of glas as green, rather than one inkeeping with how glas is used in earlier language where it's context dependent; such that 'grey' or something more akin to the hue of the metal should have been used. It's not so much my take on it but a general convention where glas in older material has an ambigious quality of colour ranging between blue-grey-green or even 'pale' in some circumstances, the translation of which depends on what is being referred to in the text.

The best rule of thumb when referencing glas is:

(i) For things that are growing - trees, plants etc, translate as green. eg. Glas nenta (nettle green); glascholl (green hazel) etc.

(ii) For the sea and eyecolour, glas refers to a range of blue-green or grey. eg. "itir glas muir ocus tír" (Ref. Imram Brain - the voygage of Bran i.25. section 53 'between the blue sea and the land'), "rosc glas" (Ref Táin Bó Cúailnge.l.206)

(iii) For metal, it's usually used in the sense of grey and the shining lustre of metal
eg. 'do chainnlig na nglas gae" ref. Ériu iv 2 (The lustre of the grey spear); glas-ghall "grey foreigners" (refers to the vikings with metal armour Ériu i.88.35), taitneam..na glaslúirech (the shining of the grey breastplate armour) - citations in DIL compact edition section 95 Glas.; and the line to which we refer: co scenaib glasgéraib ina n-deslámaib 'with sharp grey knives in their right hands" (if looking up these words in the Old Irish dictionary you have to bring them back to nominative case as they are all in a series of dative Old Irish inflections ie. nominative scían, glas, gér, lám - the -ib/aib endings are dative plurals)

(iv) For woad, 'Glaisen' it refers to a blue-grey colour and likewise to the eye-tattoos mentioned in various texts and seen in illuminated manuscripts where there are pictures of monks/saints/pilgrims wearing the eye-tattoo.'Glas ar na roscaib'.

(v) For complexions and animal colour, it's usually used in the sense of grey skin, pallor, wan eg. Baile Suibne 11.23 "glas mo ghruad" (my grey/wan cheeks), glas-chullach and graig gabor nglas (both referring to a grey stallion, the latter earlier in text of Serglige Con Culaind, in or around lines 610-630...in the section describing Cú Culainn I think)

(vi) Also in religious context it is used in the sense of a type of martyrdom "Glasmatre" "green martyrdom" which is between the states of bloody martyrdom (Dercmartre) and white martyrdom (bánmatre) which entails fasting and prayers if memory serves - green being the giving up of earthly desires and will, or such (from the Cambrai Homily, circa 7th C AD).

I understand very well what you mean about lack of source info in many translations in books today. For reference the following are really useful:

CELT project website http://www.ucc.ie/celt
- for accurate transcriptions of many ancient Irish tales in Old or Middle Irish.
If you go to the "Captured" tab, you see all the manuscripts and books entered to date
If you select "published" you can see whether there are both original Irish language and English translations of texts and view as HTML or alternative.

ISOS (Irish Script on Screen) www.isos.dias.ie
Manuscript archive for several collections (if you're not familiar with this I think I posted a link to it and instructions elsewhere in this forum), but basically you just enter it, select from the collections listed and choose the manuscript you wish to see, then scroll through the folios. There are no translations, it's a viewing archive only but a wonderful means of getting access to manuscripts that are in private collections or library archives, not on general display.

I use the Thesaurus Palaeohibernicus (Stokes and Strachan, 1901 and supplement in 1903 0r 1910 I think) if I want to cross-reference Irish/Latin information that appears in canonical texts, etc.

I use Dictionary of the Irish Language (DIL) of which there is an eDIL but I can't always get it to work, to cross-check words. Source info for a given quote is usually provided in there but translations are not always provided so to make use of the DIL you really need to have a grounding in Old Irish in order to know the variant forms of words, cases or make a guess at underlying verbs where not obvious. I'm very much a learner that way myself.

Hopefully the above is useful to you. It's nice to correspond with someone interested in these texts! they are fascinating and worthy on so many levels aren't they? for the beauty of the tales and language, the intricacy of expression and the technicality of the language too, but most of all I think, for the window they give into early Irish society and that which can corroborate classical accounts of celtic society in Gaul and Britain. Fascinating stuff!

le dea ghuí,

Beith

[Tuar_Ceatha]

Hi,

The text that my group is working with is around the confrontation with Emer and Fand.

According to the book I'm looking at the lines around it are:

Loeg! look behind thee!
Close at hand
Wise, well ranked women
Press on us;
Bright on each bosom
Shines the gold clasp;
Knives, with green edges
Whetted, they hold

As {towards] the slaughter chariot chiefs race,
Comes Forgall's daughter; changed is her countenance.



Many of the poetic phrases in this part of the story are eloquent descriptions of powerful women who take their fate into their own hands. There's also a discussion of the relationship of powerful male figures to powerful and well equipped women and the choices each make.

It has made for some excellent discussion in my women's circle.

Of course, the first problem with any ancient Irish text is that nothing was written before conversion. The ancients didn't write.

And the problem that Matthews finds with this text is: "In the present version of the story the two visits of the fairy messengers to the ailing CuChulainn, the double account of Loeg's experiences in the fairy realm, as well as other repetitions and inconsistencies are the result of the work of the compiler. Nevertheless there are some very fine passages of descriptive writing, some excellent poems, and above all a narrative which is full of unexpected twists and turns."

I take from the above that it may be possible that the transcriber, or compiler was likely working from multiple sources now lost to us. What other changes may have been introduced by this unknown scribe can only be guessed at.

I hope this clarifies the source that I'm using. Thank you again for providing your information on this. It gives me food for thought.

Tuar Ceatha

[Beith]

Hi Tuar Ceatha

Thanks for quoting the fuller piece - yes it's the piece from Lebor na hUidre as above, Lines 692-695. The translations are pretty much the same too, albeit in the one from your book, there's a little 'poetic licence' taken with some words as far as I can see. I tried to keep as close to the Irish as possible in literal translation and syntax, which is why it doesn't flow as well as yours.

It is a very interesting tale for discussion, not least because of the elements of interaction between the mortal world of humans and the immortal world of Manannán mac Lir and the wonderful dialogues between Fand and Emer and beautiful poetic phrasing therein.

Re: 'authorship & compiling'
Certainly it seems most likely that the tales were written down by those in or allied to monasteries and perhaps poetic-Legal schools, because the skill of writing lay there. The people writing them would have been a mix of ecclesiasts and those with poetic training of the Filid, as well as jurists (Brithemain); as manuscript preparation, inks and writing was a costly and specialist business and only available to these classes.

The version of the tale in LU is much older than LU itself. The latter belonging to the Middle Irish period at the time of its compilation, but the writing therein -of this tale- is in the late Old Irish period circa 9th C and the scribes were copying from the Yellow Book of Slane, which may itself have been a copy of an earlier exemplar if not the primary written source. So at what point does one determine who "the ancients"were? as pre 9th C is pretty old!

But in terms of pre-Christian source material, I think the basis of most of the corpus of mythological texts available to us are based upon that which was already in oral tradition, Senchas and poetry, with various degrees of later re-draftings or interpolations by monks or scribes allied with the church. Certainly the poetic tradition and lore-keeping was a highly conservative one, with rigorous training and demands for accuracy in composition and technique. Prose was not so esteemed and for that reason many of the tales are without 'author's names' in the manuscripts, unlike poetry where the poet was always cited as his income depended upon recognition and status. It would seem that there was, if not a prohibition on writing down poetic skills and recording of native lore in written form in earlier times, then writing was simply deemed not appropropriate for such, as the skill of learning lay in faithfully committing to memory huge quantities of information. I forget which classical writer notes of the Gaulish druids/learned caste, that they used Greek and Latin only for commerce but would not commit their native lore to writing.

Re: transmission of the tale: manuscript variants
So we know the Lebor na hUidre version is a copy of a preceeding Yellow Book of Slane version and we can date language to Old Irish period (7-9th C roughly and our text fits in at the latter end of this), but
Serglige Con Culaind is also found in another manuscript too - the Trinity manuscript H4.22 (I'm not sure if that has since be recatalogued with a different number); so it would be interesting to compare versions and see whether both were copying from the same source (YBS) or if there's substantial variation to imply different intermediary copies from which H4.22 and Book of Slane itself were made. I know nothing about H4.22 other than where it is, but I see that there is translation of each version by Prof Myles Dillon; so if you can ever get your hands on these journals/book, it would be interesting to see his commentary on the stemma for the tale.

References

Myles Dillon, Serglige Con Culainn, Columbus, Ohio, 1941. Text from Lebor na hUidre version with a translation, notes, and a complete vocabulary.

Myles Dillon, The Wasting Sickness of Cú Chulainn, Scottish Gaelic Studies VII (1953) (pt.1 1951) 47-88. Translation of H. 4. 22 text with notes.

Myles Dillon, On the text of Serglige Con Culainn, Éigse, III (1941) 120-29.

Prof Eugene O'Curry translated the text before Myles Dillon and his version is here:
Eugene O'Curry, The Sick-bed of Cuchulainn and the Only Jealousy of Eimer. Quoted from the Yellow Book of Slane in Leabhar na hUidre, p. 43. Atlantis I (1858) 362-369; II (1859) 98-124. Text from from the Yellow Book of Slane in Leabhar na hUidre, with facs. specimen of p. 43, and translation.

As regards Christian/pre-Christian origins/doctoring of tales:
Some texts show Christian influence more than others eg. Echtrae Chonnlai has very strong Christian themes of paradise and a denial of druidry in favour of a greater law (God's), but that does not mean that all stories are overtly embellished with Christian themes. People write what they know, drawing from the huge oral tradition of storytelling and Senchas (Old lore keeping) around them and probably indeed from multiple versions of tales which overlap or have variance in some episodes. In the case of the LU text, from what I can gather, it seems that two scribes were at work here. The main scribe and the one who may have amended some of his work.

I would highly recommend Prof John Carey's analysis of this in this tale. I haven't read it myself but from what I have read of Prof Carey's work, it is highly informative and always interesting in seeking out the underlying themes withing a tale, it's native/christian influences and history.
Reference
John Carey, The uses of tradition in Serglige Con Culainn, In: J.P. Mallory & G. Stockman (eds.), Ulidia, Proceedings of the First International Conference on the Ulster Cycle of Tales, Belfast (1994) 77-84.

Scribes
Re: compilers, in the case of LU, three principal scribes can be distinguished from their handwriting (referred to has 'hands' A, H and M. The latter is known: Máel Muire mac Céilechar maic Cuind na mbocht (hence 'M') who died in 1106, hence dating of Lebor na hUidre to before then). Scribe H corrected several of M's pieces, making amendments and at times overwriting a piece - perhaps because of something that wasn't right in the tale,or he didn't agree with the preamble to it or the quality/nature of writing, etc. I found this reference on CELT for the interpolation of H into M's work:
Reference:
Trond Kruke Salberg, The question of the main interpolation of H into manuscript part of the Serglige Con Culainn in the Book of the Dun Cow and some related problems, Zeitschrift für celtische Philologie XLV (1992) 161-81.

Good wishes for discussions with your Women's group. It's wonderful that you are all reviewing these tales and discussing themes therein. You certainly have a very interesting topic. Emer stands out as a self-determined woman in her tales. The dialogue between herself and Cú Chulainn when he comes to court her in Tochmarc Emire "The wooing of Emer" is fantastic.

Speaking of 'strong women' - Have you discussed/reviewed The Táin Bó Cúailnge? No better woman than Queen Medb (Maeve) for self-determination, sovereignty, headstrong character and will!

best rgds
Beith