Druidry & Military Service?

[Brianna]

Hi,
a member of the German Forum asked the following question, and I would love to have your input on it. I will then translate it into German and post it on the German Forum.
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Hallo
I have a question. As far as I know, druids were not allowed to fight. I would like to know if this is correct? Were they also not allowed to defend themselves when they were attacked?
And what else would interest me, is how it is today. Because if this was right, then nowadays druids would also not be allowed to join the army.
Looking forward to your answers. thank you.
Blessings
Oak
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[Art]

Classical writers talk about Druids in antiquity being exempt from compulsory military service and bearing arms. At the same time mythology does reflect many instances of Druids on the battlefield at times serving as peacemakers and at others encouraging and supporting the “home team.” There is nothing in any of that which would appear to prohibit Druids from fighting or from defending themselves. While it is difficult to make a direct correlation between classical accounts and the world today, the role described seems to be somewhat like that of a contemporary military Chaplin; a source of spiritual support. There is nothing that would tend to indicate that Druids were pacifists as such.

Remember as well that the classical accounts were referring to a specific vocational class and not the body of people who held the beliefs represented by Druids.

In short there is nothing that would support the notion that subscribing to Druid philosophy today would warrant exemption from military service. There are many Druids around the world serving in the armed forces with honor and distinction.

With that said, I think it would be safe to say that we stand for peace but not peace at any cost for peace at the expense of liberty, justice, and the fundamental rights of mankind is no peace at all.

[Eilthireach]

Hello Brianna,

when you use the expression 'the German forum' here, everybody thinks you refer to the Bardenforum, the OBOD German language members only forum which is a subforum of these boards.

I think it should be made clear - with all respect - that this question appeared on your own private druidry.de discussion forum.

I don't want to leave the impression that the Bardenforum moderator team is unable to answer questions and sends forum members to other forums to collect the answers.

Le mèas, with respect,

Eilthireach /|\.

[odinsson]

I spent 22 years in the armed forces and was proud so to do. I do not see it as a conflict of interests, in fact, the warrior was a revered member of society and many branches of Pagan faith have a warrior aspect.

[Brianna]

when you use the expression 'the German forum' here, everybody thinks you refer to the Bardenforum, the OBOD German language members only forum which is a subforum of these boards. I think it should be made clear - with all respect - that this question appeared on your own private druidry.de discussion forum.
I don't want to leave the impression that the Bardenforum moderator team is unable to answer questions and sends forum members to other forums to collect the answers.
Le mèas, with respect, Eilthireach /|\.

uups, sorry, yeah you're right Eilthireach. I've got the link in my signature, but that's not so obvious. I'll make it more obvious, I just didn't want to appear as if I would brag about me doing a general german forum. I don't want to appear high-nosed

Brianna

[Fiach MacMara]

I have been in the Navy for 8 years. I don't see a conflict with my military service and my Druid path. I think that most people who serve in the military, druids and non-druids alike, do so because we believe in peace and feel that our service might help to maintain that peace.

Unfortunately, our current president (I live in the U.S.) is a warmonger and has done so much damage through his "peace keeping" efforts. However, that is another topic altogether.

[Ainevar]

I see know conflict of interest in it and I support any man or woman willing to put themself at risk for the good of all.

[Brianna]

Thank you for your answers so far, they are now translated in the German druidry.de Forum. They are very helpful and it is good to have this possibility to ask you, because as there are much fewer German Druids around, it's more difficult to get to ask people who talk from experience. Thank you again.

waldfeeraven had another question in this thread about druids and arms that I want to bring into the discussion here as well:
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"I wanted to know as a newbie if I'm correctly informed that there were swords for ritual use in ancient times.... so that it's likely that Druids might have had swords too?" - waldfeeraven
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As far as I know swords as a ritual tool were only invented later and are mainly used by Wiccans. In ancient times only warriors had swords as they were pretty expensive too. Am I right?

Thanks again,

[Corwen]

Personally I see military service as incompatable with a spiritual way of life, except in the context of a defensive war like WW2. How can being prepared to kill someone you don't know just because someone somewhere else tells you to, possibly be compatable with a loving attitude to all creation?

The spiritual life is about taking responsibility for yourself, and waking up to the whole self. The military life is about abrogating responsibility to your superiors, and training parts of the emotional self to go to sleep.

There are certainly virtues that military service engenders, such as discipline, that are important in the spiritual life, but these virtues would be best learnt in other ways.

Wars will cease when men refuse to fight...

[pangurban]

Wars will cease when men refuse to fight...

Not any time soon then.

Personally I see military service as incompatable with a spiritual way of life, except in the context of a defensive war like WW2. How can being prepared to kill someone you don't know just because someone somewhere else tells you to, possibly be compatable with a loving attitude to all creation?

Not a view our Druid forbears would have agreed with. The trouble is though that without a standing army we would not be ready for any act of aggression against this country. Just because you are trained in the art of war does not mean you hope that your skills are needed, they are not only trained as fighters though look at who are in the vanguard when disasters strike usually these trained killers you speak of.. It was touch and go in WW2 because we were so unprepared, we did not think the world would be so stupid again. Some of our greatest military minds have also been spiritual people, T.E. Lawrence for one.

[Lily]

As far as I know swords as a ritual tool were only invented later and are mainly used by Wiccans.

When you say "later", you'll have to specify much later. Wicca took the use of the sword from renaissance or even later ritual magic, probably originating with the key of solomon, which probably is around the 14th century. (...!)

[Corwen]

Wars will cease when men refuse to fight...

Not any time soon then.

Obviously not if the members of spiritual movements like Druidry continue to encourage the folly of militarism.

Personally I see military service as incompatable with a spiritual way of life, except in the context of a defensive war like WW2. How can being prepared to kill someone you don't know just because someone somewhere else tells you to, possibly be compatable with a loving attitude to all creation?

Not a view our Druid forbears would have agreed with.

I don't think there is enough evidence to make such sweeping generalisations about historical Druids. There are stories about Druids stopping battles, and also about them encouraging warriors fighting against invading forces like the Romans. Neither of which is incompatable with what I said about defensive wars. Also Celtic warriors fought because they chose to, for individual honour, not because they were part of a military unit following orders. When they fought in inter tribal wars they knew the names and lineage of their enemies and took conscious decisions about the fight, sometimes refusing to slay a defeated enemy because they respected his lineage. No anonymous 'video game' warfare in those days.

Anyway I'm not a historical Druid and I don't really care about precedents set by people who lived two thousand years ago!

The trouble is though that without a standing army we would not be ready for any act of aggression against this country.

Anyone invaded Switzerland lately? There are ways to defend your country with an armed citizenry that doesn't require a standing army. The purpose of the UK's and USA's large standing armies is primarily the projection of force across the world. They are not defensive forces. Since democracy is shaky in both these countries anyone who joins their military is basically enabling the projection of power in the world by elites with dubious aims. Is that compatable with a Druidic mindset. IMO no.

The actions of our military have only served lately to make the UK and USA more dangerous places to live as they have made enemies of half the worlds population.

[pangurban]

Anyone invaded Switzerland lately? There are ways to defend your country with an armed citizenry that doesn't require a standing army.

That imo is a red herring as even Switzerland has a standing army. I am dubious of anyone claiming that to be a Druid is incompatible with military service. There are quite a few people on this board who are either serving now one of whom is in Iraq, or have served in the past, and I am not about to say they cannot be Druids

[odinsson]

Obviously not if the members of spiritual movements like Druidry continue to encourage the folly of militarism.

I do not think that anyone was encouraging the "folly of miltarism". The word folly shows a typically 1960's niave approach anyway. if you seriously believe that we do not need the armed forces then I am afraid that you have an awful lot of growing up to do.

I don't think there is enough evidence to make such sweeping generalisations about historical Druids.

Which is of course itself a sweeping generalisation

Slainte

[Fianait]

Personally I see military service as incompatable with a spiritual way of life, except in the context of a defensive war like WW2. How can being prepared to kill someone you don't know just because someone somewhere else tells you to, possibly be compatable with a loving attitude to all creation?

I have been serving on active duty in the U.S. Air Force for four years, and have not found military service incompatible with a spiritual life. The way I see it, there are things in life worth fighting for, things worth dying for, such as the principles and freedoms my country was founded upon. To me, it's about service to a cause greater than myself, a cause I believe in, not "being prepared to kill someone you don't know just because someone somewhere else tells you to".

Just because you are trained in the art of war does not mean you hope that your skills are needed

Very true, Pangur-ban! My colleagues and I train and study rigorously and work long hard hours, but while it's an important job, I do hope my particular skill set is not called for.

they are not only trained as fighters though look at who are in the vanguard when disasters strike usually these trained killers you speak of..

Again you speak wisely, Pangur-ban. The military does a great deal of disaster relief and humanitarian aid, not only Stateside in the wake of disastrous storms, but around the world as well. From pulling residents out of flooded New Orleans by helicopter after Katrina, to assisting in relief efforts after Hurricane Mitch in Honduras (1998) and in the recent storms in Asia, and more examples too long to list here, the U.S. military has been serving in humanitarian/disaster relief roles for at least sixty years. Such missions, in my view, are wholly compatible with a spiritual life, especially one that seeks to cultivate a 'love of all existences'.

Thank you for your support, Pangur-ban.

I have been in the Navy for 8 years. I don't see a conflict with my military service and my Druid path. I think that most people who serve in the military, druids and non-druids alike, do so because we believe in peace and feel that our service might help to maintain that peace.

I agree, friend, and thank you for your service as well.

I see know conflict of interest in it and I support any man or woman willing to put themself at risk for the good of all.

Thank you.

[Hennie]

if you seriously believe that we do not need the armed forces then I am afraid that you have an awful lot of growing up to do.

"Growing up" in the sense of : Accepting that people are murdering idiots, then making up reasons why violence is a necessary part of nature, making it part of evolution or God's Will or whatever?

BTW I don't see how soldiers are defending the borders of my homeland by ridiculous fighting in Afghanistan or Iraq.
And of course I am not the one to decide who can be a Druid or not.

[pangurban]

"Growing up" in the sense of : Accepting that people are murdering idiots, then making up reasons why violence is a necessary part of nature, making it part of evolution or God's Will or whatever?

No growing up in the sense of understanding that this is not a perfect world and yes some people are murdering idiots and that is why you need the armed forces to deal with them. I to wish that we lived in the sort of world where force was not necessary but until we do there will always be people wanting to take away other peoples freedom, so should we roll over and let them or use force to prevent them doing so. Of course it is not Gods will it is very much man's will but that does not mean all armed conflict id wrong and not justified just sad.

I am glad you do not say who can de a Druid or not Hennie that does not alter the fact that others do seem to want to do so and go as far as inferring that if you are doing military service then you are not a Druid

[pangurban]

BTW I don't see how soldiers are defending the borders of my homeland by ridiculous fighting in Afghanistan or Iraq.

Let terrorism go on unchecked and you will soon find how it will affect the borders of your homeland.

[Hennie]

I believe our secret service(s) do(es) better jobs in preventing terrorists actions (in fact they did do that a couple of times that the citizens know of) than our soldiers messing up the lives of mostly innocent Afghans. But this discussion is getting circular; guess I'll shut up.

[katsu]

I hope that people won't confuse the wish for Peace with Pacifism.
When I turned 18, the Draft here in the Netherlands had been abolished just a short time before. Had it still been in place, I would have chosen to serve my people by civil service (hospitals, elderly homes etc) rather than take up arms.
This doesn't mean I won't defend myself or my country however, should the need arise

But the main thing IMHO is that, as Druids, we serve in whichever capacity suits us. These are choices one need not justify to anyone except for the Self.

As for the cause people take up arms for, make sure that it is just. One day our children and our children's-children will judge us for that.