Defamation of Religion Passes at U.N. Human Rights Council

[Merlyn]

All things like this will have a long road to sanity. Bless those who live to see it..


Merlyn/|\

[Cynewulf]

Now there is that big question ``Why is the west now helping a government that officially supports slavery?''

Natural gas pipes, opium trade, military bases "strategically" located.... enough for western governments

So true.

This would be a Fatwa for quoting the Hadith and stating the modern legal implications of what it says in black and white?

Unfortunately, it wouldn’t be presented to the ‘Muslim World’ (how I hate that phrase) like that. The headlines over there would read ‘Pagans Call Mohamed a Child Rapist,’ or something along those lines.

There was a case awhile ago about a British teacher, working in the middle-east, who named a class teddy-bear after one of the pupils - said pupil just happening to be called Mohamed.

The press on both sides of the world didn’t report what happened at the time accurately .

In the Middle-East, all that was told to the people was that a Western Woman had named a toy Mohammed in mockery of the Prophet. Unsurprisingly, effigies started being burnt at mass protests. Images of these burnings where then wired directly back to old Blighty.

Did the media here mention what had actually triggered of the protests? Of course not. All we where told, was that a load of ‘Muslims’ where baying for blood because they are too inferior/incompetent/uneducated/fanatical to see the harmless nature of what the teacher did.

Most of the ‘Islamic’ controversies we hear about are just political pin-ball for various authoritarian forces around the globe. Its abhorrent. Innocent people get hurt because of it.

[cursuswalker]

Unfortunately, it wouldn’t be presented to the ‘Muslim World’ (how I hate that phrase) like that. The headlines over there would read ‘Pagans Call Mohamed a Child Rapist,’ or something along those lines.

In other words it is okay for a Muslim to judge our culture by their standards, but we cannot judge Mohammed by our standards.

Since the basis for this assertion is the alleged existence of a Sky-Fairy, we now move to the evidence for said sky-fairy.

Which is a book, which proves that the sky-fairy exists.

While the sky-fairy proves that the book is proof of the existence of the sky-fairy.

No wonder the religious find it so much easier to resort to threats

[Merlyn]

It would never occur to anyone that news is disinformation, now would it?

And no one but the "western governments" uses oil, now do they?

The absolute hateful mindset here is sickening.

[Beachgirl]

Yes, Merlyn. News is disinformation. A technique used extensively during our elections is to say something false and damning about the other candidate. The truth comes out in the rebuttal, but no one listens because they're still believing the initial lie.

What do you think of all the countries boycotting the UN racism meeting? I'm torn because if they aren't there to provide the voice of reason, then the only voices heard are those of, ironically, bigotry. I also understand the gesture of so many countries boycotting, but how do we miss an opportunity to bring our own huge block of free-speech believers? Can't our combined voices overpower the nay-sayers?

[cursuswalker]

It would never occur to anyone that news is disinformation, now would it?

And no one but the "western governments" uses oil, now do they?

The absolute hateful mindset here is sickening.

Could you give an example of this "sickening" "hateful mindset"?

[Cynewulf]

In other words it is okay for a Muslim to judge our culture by their standards, but we cannot judge Mohammed by our standards.

That's not what I said at all

What I meant by my post, was that most 'Islamic' controversies are deliberately engineered by various authority figures to suit their own ends and, therefore, have nothing to do with real Islam.

Banning religious criticism is about protecting authoritarian Theocratic states. It's an attempt to prevent criticism of the scripture they abuse to keep their workers subservient. It's a political issue, not a religious one.

I was in no way supporting limitations upon Freedom of Speech.

[Merlyn]

What do you think of all the countries boycotting the UN racism meeting?

I think it is just another example of why the UN is a useless money pit.

Banning religious criticism is about protecting authoritarian Theocratic states. It's an attempt to prevent criticism of the scripture they abuse to keep their workers subservient. It's a political issue, not a religious one.

That's about spot on. The Muslim community would have to lead by example before anyone would or could take them seriously on this.

Could you give an example of this "sickening" "hateful mindset"?

Blaming the "western governments" has become a pitiful example of displaced fear. We are after all the result of oppressive western slave trade, conquest and colonization by those who are the most outspoken critics. For our insight to be so shallow is worrisome and without "western governments" the world would be ruled by the extremist religious governments instead. We are here after all, due to the greedy gold rush and just as real, wonderful lands which feed the world.
If we stopped food production, over farming, shipping and donating cash to the world, billions would starve. We use tremendous amounts of energy doing this, and if everyone wants us to stop, then grow your own, please!

The more we feed into this fear, the more it grows.
If "we" cannot grow from this, and abolish it within ourselves.... who will?
The political chess game with such a delicate balance that one wrong move will trigger WW3, needs wisdom.
Right now, not later, or when we feel up to it, or after the other guy gets the point..

Any "sky fairy" can write disinformation.
Our pages we write, these fast paced message boards, filled with our thoughts.
They could be solutions, they could be "how we move forward, how we become able.

I know it's not in the OBOD mindset to become one voice of reason.
Until it is, we will always be background chatter, amounting to nothing.

"There comes a time in the affairs of humankind when we must stand firm on the fundamental principles that binds us," he said. "There comes a time to reaffirm our faith in fundamental human rights and dignity and worth of us all, a time to give the virtues of tolerance in respect for diversity their fullest due and look beyond a past that divides us towards a future that unites us. The time is now, ladies and gentleman. The time is now."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8007440.stm


Merlyn

[Aelfarh]

Blaming the "western governments" has become a pitiful example of displaced fear.

And self-indulgence is a pitiful example of avoiding reality. If western people either from first and third world western countries can not see their failures, and keep thinking that the eastern governments are just “jealous” of them, that are savages who need guidance and spreading of civilization (with the so misused labels of democracy and freedom) then our governments will continue to use us and lying to us, engaging their citizens in wars that only pursue economic interests. Is easy to claim the badge of Saviours of the world, and in a naive way, think that there's no need of anyone else but everyone need us. That is really sickening and fails to understand the complexity of the world.

We are talking about free speech on this thread, something we have the right and obligation to maintain, yes to make critics to human rights violations in the Muslim world, and to any religion, but also in our own countries. We’ll be hypocrite if we ask something that we are not willing to give.

[Corwen]

I know it's not in the OBOD mindset to become one voice of reason.
Until it is, we will always be background chatter, amounting to nothing.

That multiplicity of voice and opinion is part of what makes Paganism and also the New Age movement an alternative to conventional religious groups, its part of an implied critique of conventional religion which says actually both community and personal spiritual growth is possible without a 'Creed' of some sort. Druidry embodies that Pagan model of multiplicity very well(sorry if you're a non-Pagan Druid but that multiplicity is why you are here with us Pagans, Atheists etc! )

[Merlyn]

After being the most conflicted group if states on earth and the civil war, the United states finally took a grip. This however came through industrialism. To do this was one fundamental idea; Freedom of Speech.

We "in the west" have 3rd world countries too, Mexico and places in the US that qualify with more problems than solutions. I was in Richmond Virginia, (do you think that is a rich place? full of consuming people?) driving through a neighborhood where every other home was boarded up or burned out, with children playing in the street, calling it home. You may not know this or see it, take everything you know from disinformation, but I am going to tell you now, what ever it is you are getting your information from is FAR from the truth.
More people die from violence in America then in all of Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan, NOW, EVERY DAY!
Most of it is directly from illegal drug trade. Our open boarders must now close. What ever it is that makes people think we do nothing but consume, very obviously feeds from lies of disinformation. A drug addicted world is infecting our country, and we are sick of it.

How about Cuba? on & on I could go down the "western Americas".
Drop the "west" thing. It is simply NOT so. This disinformation is exactly where this goes, and the most outspoken critics of the Muslim religion and world DO NOT LIVE HERE. Why are we supporting Afghanistan? Did you forget 9-11-2001?
So that slavery will be abolished, so that those people can have thier own country. THAT is all. They have hated each other since the beginning of recorded time. Now it affects EVERYONE, all over the world. Just listen to what Iran brought to the UN and why so many boycotted the meeting.

It is real, it is going to get worse. And it isn't OUR FAULT!

Merlyn

[Merlyn]

sorry if you're a non-Pagan Druid

There is no such thing.
As I mentioned, "pagan" is a slur I simply do not like.
It has become something more. However I see druids as others see Hindus. Is a Hindu pagan?

That's another debate entirely.

Merlyn

[Aelfarh]

We "in the west" have 3rd world countries too, Mexico and places in the US that qualify with more problems than solutions. I was in Richmond Virginia, (do you think that is a rich place? full of consuming people?) driving through a neighborhood where every other home was boarded up or burned out, with children playing in the street, calling it home. You may not know this or see it, take everything you know from disinformation, but I am going to tell you now, what ever it is you are getting your information from is FAR from the truth.

You're right on that, the west is not only the first world countries, and not even in the first world countries everybody lives a beautiful life, I really doubt that anyone here will deny that truth. That's one more reason why we should not allow self-complacence to win. If we allow that attitude to take over of citizens and governments it won't be long before fascism, theocratic states or similar ways takes over and that's it we are screwed!

More people die from violence in America then in all of Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan, NOW, EVERY DAY!
Most of it is directly from illegal drug trade. Our open boarders must now close. What ever it is that makes people think we do nothing but consume, very obviously feeds from lies of disinformation. A drug addicted world is infecting our country, and we are sick of it.

Maybe it's time to analyse why the states have that great need of drugs that has made that country the bigger consumer of the world. People usually turn to drugs to avoid reality, what is it so wrong for so many people in the "land of the dreams"?

How about Cuba? on & on I could go down the "western Americas".
Drop the "west" thing. It is simply NOT so. This disinformation is exactly where this goes, and the most outspoken critics of the Muslim religion and world DO NOT LIVE HERE. Why are we supporting Afghanistan? Did you forget 9-11-2001?
So that slavery will be abolished, so that those people can have thier own country. THAT is all. They have hated each other since the beginning of recorded time. Now it affects EVERYONE, all over the world. Just listen to what Iran brought to the UN and why so many boycotted the meeting.

It is real, it is going to get worse. And it isn't OUR FAULT!

If we are to believe the governments, yes that is why these two wars begin in the first place, but we can see that the same governments are allowing slavery laws to be issued, like the one commented here. So, are we really that naive to think that ...that was the real reason? and did you forget september the 11th 1973? was that support also because democracy and freedom bring by the mighty saviours? and there's a huge list of dates over there, many also in eastern countries. So I don't really think that the only ones to blame about what is happening are the "others". Neither that "eastern countries" are just victims, that's too simplistic.

[Druid Faqir]

Peace!

I, for one have never been part of the "blame the West (ooops!, I said it again) for everything evil" club. Yes, I've seen some horrid things done by "democratic" powers, but that's not to say Muslim countries don't have an act to clean up. Whenever I hear Ahmadinejad or other people say the "others" are evil and should be "delt with apropriately" I say to myself "You know what? We've forgotten our Golden-Age model; in those days we DID lead by example: in Baghdad Muslims, Christians and Jews of all fields of knoledge came together to give answers to life's questions WITHIN (and that's the part I like best) a religious framework. NOW WHY DON'T WE DO THAT AGAIN? If we could (or rather would, because the ability exists) PROVE ourselves a force for social change for the better then our critics would simply not have what to criticise anymore". Until that happens, however, critique will remain necessary.

One of my basic ideas in life is that only Europe and America owe something to secularist thought. China, India, Ancient Rome, Fatimid Egypt were all notable examples of integration of spirituality into a tapistry of humanist thought and policy; Rome and India were both, each in their own day, shining examples of cosmopolitan societies while China and Fatimid Egypt were splendidly-crafted meritocracies, where anyone could rise to prominence based on skill.
OK, there were imperfections involved as well (they were still HUMAN societies), but as far as I know what I said stands.
So the ideas of tolerance and harmony between faiths and peoples wasn't "invented" in the 18th-19th centuries. We just have to re-learn to apply those principles and everything will be OK.

Blessings!
/|\

[Merlyn]

in those days we DID lead by example: in Baghdad Muslims, Christians and Jews of all fields of knowledge came together to give answers to life's questions WITHIN (and that's the part I like best) a religious framework

That is the OBOD druid mindset.
How to make it move forward will take more than independent beacons of light.
America not only sees the danger of long term complacency, we do something about it. Neither Bush or Clinton is president now for this very reason.
I simply thank every nation for showing support for Obama as it helped us become determined enough to make what is now a HUGE change.
It will become the primary goal of our country, and 9-11-2001 was as much a case of complacent ignorance as it was an out-right attack by an extremist government which occupied Afghanistan. We see that also.

The example of the UN walk out we saw today, speaks to many things. But it showed Iran for what it is on a national scale. It showed that the world is uneasy with extremist agendas, it showed this is not a "west" problem, but an Iran problem. For that it did more good than harm IMO.

But the east-west thing has another serious problem, putting Christian theology in context with "west". Christ came from the "east"... or did the eastern world forget that?
We in the west adopt an eastern theology and then get called the great satin for it. This seems much like the pirates vowing to get revenge for being caught red handed with stolen goods and hostages. Really?

Pagans as we are called are more committed to spiritual ways then those who speak the "non believer" word too often. These (what's the word) hypocrites dominate disinformation as a matter of conviction.

So all of this ends up how?
Defamation of religion meets cartoonist.

If the freedom of speech is to be taken from religion, is it really religion?
I guess that's the real question.

If those who are supposed to believe in their god cannot speak out, how can "they" believe?
Certainly not from the heart.

How do we as we see ourselves understand this and not speak out?

Maybe it's time to analyse why the states have that great need of drugs

I didn't want to ignore this, so I will address it. I think it is pretty obvious how suicide bombers are made.
I see it happen in the states, and it is the root of drug abuse; desperation. It is a cheap way to feel good.
It will require a long hard look to see how our country has taken in the drug trade and how it is so easy to do. Our kids are running around getting caught up in it all simply because we are preoccupied with survival. Our parents are turning to it instead of spiritual freedom.
Mexico has a market. That's a problem we need to end. I personally have suffered two ex-wives simply because their friends got them on cocaine. Soon enough they cannot trust their own shadow. When I say no, it ends up in divorce, kids or not. I personally will not stand for it, as it does nothing but rip apart people from the inside out.

Do opiates play a role in this world stage of extremist religion?
Like a test question eh? What is the primary crop of Afghanistan?

Why was the poppy field in the wizard of OZ?
If we are to see the flying monkeys, the lion, the tin man, we then see them as examples of social reality.
Drugs in America are a serious problem and a threat to freedom of spirituality. Do we see that our disinformation freaks like to label pagans as druggies? What an easy way to oppress us all.

Merlyn

[pangurban]

sorry if you're a non-Pagan Druid

There is no such thing.
As I mentioned, "pagan" is a slur I simply do not like.
It has become something more. However I see druids as others see Hindus. Is a Hindu pagan?

That's another debate entirely.

Merlyn

Can you not see that what YOU see as a slur others are Proud to own as a title. I am a Pagan Druid and PROUD of the fact, it only becomes a derogatory term if you let it become so. As to Hindus well in the basic meaning of Pagan as a non Christian belief the answer is yes.

[Merlyn]

Yes I am too proud to be a "pagan".
Even if it is a biker group, 1%. (oddly many are Christian)
Pagan takes on a few meanings. I would rather be called what I am, a druid. (neo druid for those who want)

We have a "human right" to be what we want, spiritually, so long as it is not opposing any other religion or ethic "way".
This example; today, of a walk out shows religion can take on more than a spiritual meaning, it can be a symbol of human oppression.

So what is the issue? "Zions and Crusaders"?
I think not.

Are the Jews a threat to Muslims?
They seem to think so...

Their Imam's blame us for being a friend of the Jews..
Should we just put them in a ring and let them fight it out?

We can't.
Another good story, and the Lord of the Rings "one ring to rule them all".
Perhaps we should feed them all cabbage eh?
Gandalff the elves and all, represent who has to "deal" with the lord of the ring and destroy it..

Is this really happening now? Can we even believe it?
And if so, will we just sit and watch?
Worry about who is a pagan?

Merlyn

[pangurban]

I would rather be called what I am, a druid. (neo druid for those who want)

And I would rather be called what I am A Pagan Druid who tries to follow the old ways of my land, and see that the term Pagan is not however much you want to believe it so a derogatory term today.

[Aylyn]

I would rather be called what I am, a druid. (neo druid for those who want)

And I would rather be called what I am A Pagan Druid who tries to follow the old ways of my land, and see that the term Pagan is not however much you want to believe it so a derogatory term today.

And I thought Heathen was derogatory, whereas Pagan was "normal" for believers of the old path... Could you clarify that?

[Aelfarh]

Gods ...Not again!!!