Druidry & Military Service?

[Kat Lady]

I wonder how Brianna feels about having her thread tampered with?

Firstly, I do not see anyone "tampering" with the thread. I see a suggestion made that perhaps in order to do multiple subjects justice, that there be a split of the 2 main discussions. While it is true that using some of the current/past conflicts is necessary to illustrate a point being made, there may be merit in having a separate thread (as Michael and Seeker both noted) for discussion of the current military incursions and our actions/reactions as druids. Perhaps a split is not the answer at this time, but limiting the use of a particular situation for illustration of a point/opinion is. Otherwise, the main topic of discussion (which seems to me to be whether military service is compatible with a druidic lifestyle) will be derailed into a detailed discussion of some of the current military incursions and will take away from the discussion at hand.

In other words, no one is using any heavy-handed moderation as those participating in the discussion are playing nice and not running with scissors. However, it might be easier for those reading and participating to stick to one discussion at a time.

[Seeker]

Kat said:

Perhaps a split is not the answer at this time, but limiting the use of a particular situation for illustration of a point/opinion is.

If you all wish to continue this way, go for it - no harm intended...it was just a suggestion.

[Michael C. Page]

Upset? Threat?
I believe you are misunderstanding what we have suggested - I also think the discussion is very important and is going well. But, I also believe that the topics might be discussed as separate issues to allow more people to participate.

The suggestion had nothing to do with any type of "punitive" measure; as a matter of fact, it really was brought up because the depth of the discussion has expanded so well.

go out for a bike ride if a DHP thread is getting you upset.

I'm way passed anything on this site getting me upset.

Been there, done that...

Wow folks – I far as I know I’ve never had a quarrel with any of you and I’m surprised that you would feel threatened or angered by a suggestion that was just meant to be helpful. I’m also quite surprised that you would interpret my post as being heavy handed instead of as one which truly values the issues which this thread is discussing, having experienced them first hand.

I must say I’m surprised by the reaction. The suggestion of creating two different debates as focus groups (one for compatibility and the other for Right action in current events) was just simply that - a suggestion. As to the issue of involving Admin, the Admin simply has the ability to facilitate such requests if needed and that’s all – no heavy handedness implied or intended.

I hope this clears up any misunderstanding

[ARTEMIS1759]

As a soldier of the North Dakota NAtional Guard I feel there is no problem being druid and in the military. The Military even considers Druidism as a form of religion. Sure there are other ways to gain spirituality. But, I did not rejoin the military (after a failed stint at 17) until I was 29. I did not recieve my bonuses and I have not complained. There is a quote I would like for you to hear from "Black Hawk Down". This is what I believe...""When I go home people'll ask me, "Hey Hoot, why do you do it man? What, you some kinda war junkie?" You know what I'll say? I won't say a goddamn word. Why? They won't understand. They won't understand why we do it. They won't understand that it's about the men next to you, and that's it. That's all it is."". Druidism has no real set based values because it is flexible. This is why many people are drawn to it. They can form their own beliefs. I do not understand why you would think that Druidry and the Military can not fit together. Telling me I can not serve the Military IMO is like a slap in the face as I know this is a path that was chosen for me by the Gods and Goddesses. How else do you explain the fact that one I came back and two I would have never came back to the military if I had not studied with my son for the ASVAB test since he failed it several times (he has a hard time taking tests) and he failed it agin, but I passed. And I could have walked out of there right then but something told me to sign up. I serve the military to better people s lives even if the reason the deployment I am on was done for the wrong reasons. Contrary to the news networks popular belief we do not kill people 24 hours a day/7 days a week. I personally spent 67 days on flood duty this year protecting cities from floods. 67 days away from my family and job to help and protect others. I am not a hero, hell I just do it because it is my moral obligation to help and if I didn't I would hate myself. I volunteered to stay on even after my unit was deployed for 10 days. Us soldiers are not killing machines as people would like to believe. We are required to give a no BS assessment of an operation and if we feel it is wrong then we tell the military that. The news loves violence and it is our worst enemy because they never show all the schools, homes, air ports, roads, etc. that we rebuild so these places can actually function and people do not have to fear for their lives when they walk down the street. Over 5000 of my fellow brothers and sisters have given their lives in support of what I have said. And before you get all bent out of shape about that...we choose to be there. We signed up in a pure volunteer Military. No drafts no BS. This is what we choose. If I die for my country I know I will have done right by my Gods and Goddesses. I go to also watch my battle Buddies back so we can both go home at the end of the day. So tell me again that because I am in the Military I can not be a Druid. Everything I am Mind, Body and Soul was made to help others. As are most of my brethren. Before I sign off on this...I may also be commissioned to be a Druidic Chaplain for the US military so I may help other Druids find their way here and into the next life. Remember All gave some and some gave all because they believed in this. I wish the best to all of you. I know you do not understand and some of you never will. Sorry if I have offended anyone. with some of the statements I have read I feel as if I was persecuted for my beliefs. By the way, Hello. I just signed up tonight. Great Forum.

[Ainevar]

to ARTEMIS1759 .....I will say this though....my brother who is in the USMC and my Dad who was honarably discharged from the Marines would like you to think they are super humans or something.

[ARTEMIS1759]

:applause: to ARTEMIS1759 .....I will say this though....my brother who is in the USMC and my Dad who was honarably discharged from the Marines would like you to think they are super humans or something.

Well we tend to pick up that invincibility thing the longer we are in. Any how we show we are. We know we are not but it makes us feel safe. And ty

[Merlyn]

Because if this was right, then nowadays druids would also not be allowed to join the army.
Looking forward to your answers. thank you.

Sometimes, to carry the original posters question forward will help progress the discussion, at least to a newcomer to the thread like myself.
It does come to mind that of all things we need on the battlefield now, is a druid with the wisdom to use such a force in a constructive way. So long as the dogs of war command we will most likely see failure as the other side will simply grow in numbers. Granted an army must at times defend, if we simply deny any druid involvement, as a traditional druid way, we perhaps fail to see where a druid might do a great deal of good.

It is a tough question, one I have thought of many times.

Merlyn /|\

[DJ Droood]

It does come to mind that of all things we need on the battlefield now, is a druid with the wisdom to use such a force in a constructive way.

Reminds me of a line from "Inglorious Basterds" (somewhat entertaining, but a failure, imo) A British officer is trying to chat up some American commandos before a mission. He says to their Lieutenant "He isn't very loquacious, is he?" And the Lieutenant says "Is that what you need right now? Someone loquacious?"

[Merlyn]

He he...indeed,
I figure if we train a person to fight, and he makes his way up to be in command, what do we expect? He will fight...
Fairly easy to figure that we need to train our fighters to do a bit more, so we have specialized fighters, who fight special fights....
In charge of all of this is a politician....


So we get things like GWB...
Who started two fights with no intention of any kind of real goal, just short sighted gains..
And the trained fighters who are not under direct military command, but hired are wandering about getting drunk...
So our trained fighters are in harms way for shortsighted goals, imperiled by hired drunks...

Could a druid in command do any good?
Perhaps, not sure how...

But to the question, should a druid go into the military? Is it fundamentally against being a druid?
According to the history, no. Does that demand that we still hold to this standard?
Or could we see value in a spiritual way, as any advantage?

I say yes to the idea of those in the military who are pagan. A Druid Chaplin, a Druid doctor, a Druid technical expert and so on.
So, it's not just a black and white question IMO.

Merlyn

[Alan C]

Morning
I am a serving member of the British Army with 15 years service. In all my years I have never met another druid, are there any out there?

We are lucky to be living in a place where we are given the choice of spiritual freedom. I would like to think that this freedom has come with no cost but it has not. I firmly do not believe that the druid path is incompatible with my service. Corwen’s points about the fact that warfare has no place in (reading between the lines) a civilised, modern, spiritual existence is quite correct. However until all weapons are laid to rest there will always be someone try to exploit and abuse others for a profit of sorts. Granted the militaries work in the Middle East and Asia is difficult to justify and I would hate to be given the job of doing so.

I believe that the western world is currently somewhat paranoid, and we may have lost sight of where the threat to our shores end and our profit holdings start. Just the cynic in me, but that said I have and will continue to do my job to the best of my ability. I have seen real improvement in Iraq the people on the ground now have a hope for their future and that of their children. I would like to think that I have helped in that forward movement.

In my work the situations I am placed in are most often rock hard! place. I would like to believe that my faith has given me the chance to input what little help and compassion I can. I am not alone in this we are not a bunch of killers; we have an unfortunately, necessary job to do.
At the end of my days in the old folk’s home I shall have little left but memories and photographs I want them to be worthwhile. I want to be able to say that I did my bit to help. We are all very good at broad brush statements about how everything in the world is wrong but until you inject work to change what is broken you have done nothing.
War is wrong! A statement of fact what can I do about that? Well I can shout all day long nothing will change, but stepping up to the plate placing myself in harms way to maybe help save one or two in the process then I have achieved something of worth. Shant stop my shouting or my campaigning, nor hoping that we shall as a race see the folly of our own endeavours.

[Merlyn]

Spoken like a true Scot, Alan.
The end of many wrongs end in war.
We can never rise to peace, unless we all seek it, but freedom is not free.
It is a very hard choice but I understand, respect and honor it.
Thank you for serving. and Germany
I am sure you will find other Drui in your journey.
And as you do, many will see and bring help and not war.

Merlyn /|\

[Alan C]

Thank you Merlyn
Sorry my return has been so long been out of town. This is a worthwhile thread hope it continues, well at least until the current problems resolve or we all do decide to lay down our arms ( Ye Right).

[Merlyn]

You are welcome Alan,
I think this is one of the most difficult topics for the evolved spiritual aspect we strive for, yet face this same age old reality.
But the Drui of old had a renowned ability to bring solution to times of war. If ever there was a critical place for a druid to be, it could be considered as this.
Wisdom is hard to find these days, and in need more than ever.

Merlyn

[Dathi]

The flip side of this thread!

Squaddies discuss paganism / Druidry etc.

http://www.arrse.co.uk/Forums/viewtopic ... art=0.html

Not for the overly precious, but some interesting comments / historical snippits.

CFN,

Dathi

[wolf560]

Personally I see military service as incompatable with a spiritual way of life... How can being prepared to kill someone... possibly be compatable with a loving attitude?

Wars will cease when men refuse to fight...

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

The Druids understood that, and as with any group that cared for the well-being of their people they stood with their Tuath (people).

Do not mistake someones moral obligations for any spiritual lessening.
If "Political Viewpoints", "Religious Dogma", "Moral Obligations" and "Spiritual Ethics" were all the same thing.... then there would only be one phrase for all four.

I have been a Druid since 1981, I retired from the US Army Infantry in 2002 after 20 years proud service. I have sacrificed a great deal for my country's freedom. I have given freely of myself in order to help dozens of students further their education in the Druid as well as the Wiccan Paths.

The notion of a "Peaceful Druid" that turns the other cheek while their fellow countrymen and women are in danger is not something I can do. I am not the kind of person that feels that one's personal spiritual needs are more important than anyone else's.

My spiritual path has never been in question and as with anything else a persons "Job" does not define their "Faith".

Let me ask a different question.....

If a Lawyer successfully defends a mass-murderer and gets them off without any penalty, can they be "Spiritual"? Let me put it another way......

How can a used car salesman be a good Pagan?
Are we saying that our code should be used to prevent anyone we don't personally approve of from becoming a Pagan?

Those are dangerous grounds to stand upon and I will refrain from stepping on those slippery sands personally.

/|\ Mark