Avatar: The ultimate Druid movie

[Twig]

Those "Survival" links are really enlightening, Corwen. Thanks for posting them. I have saved/forwarded the sweet little tale of crass development and imperialism so familiar to lots of us in the United States.

[DJ Droood]

Just reading a newspaper article about how the movie is another version of the "white messiah" figure saving an indigenous population...it is "white" technology that endangers them, and ultimately white technology that tries to save them...the Na'vi are the "other" who's fate rests on us, one way or anither. (although it is the deus ex machina plot device that finally saves the day)

[Corwen]

That struck us too, I was almost suprised Kevin Costner wasn't playing the lead . I'm not sure its about a 'White Messiah', after all Will Smith plays basically the same role in I am Legend, and Obama was playing on the same feelings in his election campaign. Its the American myth of the Special Individual and His magical ability to put everything right. That's a story implicit in almost all Hollywood movies, and I guess its made manifest in the Cult of the President that the rest of the world often finds surprising, daft or alarming by turns.

It could have been handled better, with the Na'vi more the active party in deciding their own destiny, considering how long James Cameron has had to think about it... I don't think many people would have noticed 15 years ago when the script was first written though.

[Twig]

Sounds like the John Wayne Myth to me. The ultimate American white hero-guy. The poster boy for the Right.

[White Horse]

I loved Avatar! It has been a long time before something that good came out. It is now in my list of top ten picks!

Davin, great picture! Star Wars is in my top ten list also.

Welcome to the forum Lithreal.

Yes, I really enjoyed the film on so many levels.

Eywa must be some derivation of Awen.

I would recommend this for Druidic folk.

[Avariel]

Sounds like the John Wayne Myth to me. The ultimate American white hero-guy. The poster boy for the Right.

It's not. There's more of a transformation from Right to Left, if anything, if you want to start throwing political sides to it :P

[Twig]

Avariel -- I see that I wasn't successful at pulling off a tongue-in-cheek comment. My bad!

There is no way that a John Wayne character could appear in the movie I've been reading about in this thread. But I thank you for reassuring me that it is definitely more left than right! I am now really curious about how the deus ex machina plays out....

I've gotten in touch with my sci-fi friend to set up a time to go see it. How pitiful that I only have one sci-fi friend! The others aren't even vaguely interested in seeing it, but they think I am nuts, anyway.

[Corwen]

Sounds like the John Wayne Myth to me. The ultimate American white hero-guy. The poster boy for the Right.

It's not. There's more of a transformation from Right to Left, if anything, if you want to start throwing political sides to it :P

I agree with Avariel that the film overall, with its obvious environmental message and critique of the military as an arm of Corporate capitalism, is typically Hollywood left wing, but I know where Twig is coming from, the idea of the 'Rugged Individual' is usually associated with right wing rhetoric, with any perceived state interference in that individual autonomy and self determination(usually that's right wing code for redistributive taxes) being seen as a terrible threat.

Its interesting that Hollywood, often criticised in the US for being left wing/liberal, is superficially liberal but the deep structure and the unspoken assumptions of its stories and myths profoundly promotes the cult of the Individual (with a big 'I'). No surprise that the New Age is the unofficial religion of Hollywood.

This is like the implicit bias that means when the economy is growing it is reported as a good news story, despite economic growth meaning more habitat destruction, more resource use, more land theft, more CO2 etc and therefore being bad news for the planet. We don't even realise there is a bias implied in this type of reporting, because we are so used to it. I know this is old news, but if you haven't seen it and you've got 2 1/2 hours to spare have a look at Naom Chomsky's film Manufacturing Consent:
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-5631882395226827730&ei=aZBNS9y0ENmC-AaU5NzZAw&q=manufacturing+consent&client=opera#

[Aelfarh]

Also take into account that the US left is the equivalent to a the right wing of many other countries. In that country there's no left wing, there's right and extreme right.

[Claer]

I'm not sure its a Druidic film, modern Druidry all too often seems to be about our 'personal growth' or cultural heritage rather than our place in the community of all beings, but I did find it a deeply Animist movie. I was especially moved when Neytiri saves Jake from the attack by the pack of dog like animals, and then apologises to them, and attacks him for causing their unnecessary deaths by making himself a target unnecessarily. Now that's Animism!

[Snip]And as for who the Marines represent, its you and me. Every time we pull out our wallets and unthinkingly buy illegally grown palm oil or Nigerian gas or mahogany or rain forest beef or many many other things we put a bullet in a gun somewhere.

If this film has moved you please read this little book, which would be funny if it weren't true:
http://www.survivalinternational.org/thereyougo

and check out Survival's website:
http://www.survivalinternational.org

On seeing the trailer - I wasn't too fussed to rush and see this. The amount of hype and CGI almost put me off. However, went out to see it Monday night - and was pleased to be wrong!
I really enjoyed it - especially the scene that Corwen mentions, which really grabbed me. Many other bits of the film reminded me of others (the fight with the Ewoks in Return of the Jedi, even bits from Alien(s) etc) - but despite that - overall I enjoyed it. The above scene made it for me though.

[DJ Droood]

While I enjoyed it and will see it again in 3-D. the somewhat flat-footed spiritual message is what kept it from being a great movie for me.

Quite the oppsite of a Druid message, I see a rather hopeless, guilt-laden post-Christian message. (guilt about invading North America, guilt about invading Iraq, environmental guilt, etc.)

Earthlings/European-Americans are seperated from Nature and have no gods. Only technology can connect them to Nature and the God.

The Native Aliens are connected intimately to Nature and their god. (a mono-goddess, it seems..)

We have been banished from the Garden of Eden, but may reunite again with the Divine by sacrificing ourselves (or supporting the sacrifice of the Chosen One, a man born inside a god(ling).)

The European-Americans leave Eden. as seperated from God as in the beginning.

In the end, while I sympathized with the plight of the Native Aliens, I was forced to identify with the European-Americans and stare into the void, which I am already wallowing in, thank you very much. The movie said nothing about how humans can connect with thier environment on the same level.

[Aelfarh]

Well, in the film itself it's clear that humans not only didn't connect with their land, they finish it ... "there's nothing green there" or something like that says the soldier. Of course we can't connect in the literal way they can... we have no USB port on the back of our heads But of course that's only if you take the script in literal way.

[Corwen]

While I enjoyed it and will see it again in 3-D. the somewhat flat-footed spiritual message is what kept it from being a great movie for me.

Quite the oppsite of a Druid message, I see a rather hopeless, guilt-laden post-Christian message. (guilt about invading North America, guilt about invading Iraq, environmental guilt, etc.)

Well guilt is nature's way of telling you you've done something wrong and need to make amends. Feeling guilt and having a conscience is what separates us from, um, psychopaths...

Earthlings/European-Americans are seperated from Nature and have no gods. Only technology can connect them to Nature and the God.

The Native Aliens are connected intimately to Nature and their god. (a mono-goddess, it seems..)

I think rather than being a 'Goddess' in the usual way of understanding that word it explicitly states in the film that Eywa is a personification of everything that lives in the ecosystem, and includes the traces of those things which have lived before. This is a perception of an actual physical unity, in the way that Gaia is a way of describing Earth as a single united entity, allbeit a compound one, not a monotheistic theological standpoint. The Na'vi don't express any opinions about the wider universe or cosmic origins in the film. They are 'bioregional animists' (http://www.bioregionalanimism.com/)

We have been banished from the Garden of Eden, but may reunite again with the Divine by sacrificing ourselves (or supporting the sacrifice of the Chosen One, a man born inside a god(ling).)

I didn't see the motif of sacrifice as particularly prominent in the film, more the normal sentient urge to fight to defend things which you have come to love. However Grace's death and subsequent integration into Eywa, which we are invited to think may have triggered Eywa's change of heart- after all the Na'vi don't expect her to take sides, could be seen as a sacrifice, although she dies while they attempt to heal her, and her death is not willingly undertaken which is usually a prerequisite for redemptive sacrifice of the Christian type. It is interesting that Scully's attempt to fight the Marines fails, and the planet itself fights back, in this way Cameron slightly subverts the Messianic overtones, as this Messiah doesn't succeed directly.

The European-Americans leave Eden. as seperated from God as in the beginning.

In fact some appear to stay, though the military leave. I guess Pandora (Eden) is still available for those capable of experiencing it.

In the end, while I sympathized with the plight of the Native Aliens, I was forced to identify with the European-Americans and stare into the void, which I am already wallowing in, thank you very much. The movie said nothing about how humans can connect with thier environment on the same level.

Sorry to hear about your existential crisis. I disagree with you though, firstly the film stressed the importance of connecting with our environment, the Na'vi like us only really exist as relating beings. The meaning of the metaphor of Scully (a paraplegic) being paralysed from the waist down (all the sexual generative, creative and rooted areas being out of reach to him as they are to our wider culture) which he is able to transcend through the use of his Avatar body, sensually experiencing the environment through a literal physical connection to other-than-human (and other-than-Na'vi) persons and to the realm of the ancestors and the land is pretty clear. It invites us in a direct and physical way to use our embodiedness as a tool to relate sensually and spiritually with the wider world. It is on the level of sensual embodiment as physical beings that we connect to other life and the wider world on an equal footing.

You might like to read Spell of the Sensuous by David Abram.

[DJ Droood]

Well, the Vatican agrees with most of you!

http://www.cbc.ca/arts/film/story/2010/ ... tican.html

"(Twentieth Century Fox) The Vatican's newspaper and its radio station have given a lukewarm reception to the film Avatar, criticizing it for its "spiritualism linked to the worship of nature."

"He tells the story without going deep into it, and ends up falling into sappiness," it said.

(I have to agree with them there)


And I still tend more to this view:

The detractors say that the Na’vi are portrayed as helpless, dumb, religious folks who need a white male savior to rescue them. Again, this is a very common theme in movies for decades (Pocahontas, The Last Samurai, and Dances with Wolves are given as prime examples), and a stereotype racial activists have been fighting against for just as long. What makes this argument stronger is that the main Na’vi actors (including Zoe Saldana and Laz Alsono) are black. Many are arguing that someone should make a movie where the natives/minorities can actually save themselves without the white man.

http://movieviral.com/2010/01/12/is-avatar-racist/

Of course, it is a credit to Avatar that people are actually debating meaning...most films don't run that risk! I honestly don't think Cameron was intending to make a shallow, racist film...he was intending to make a huge film using the latest technology and have his primarily American audience go to it in droves, so he needed something visually stunning, yet easy for his audience to digest.

[Jake]

Also take into account that the US left is the equivalent to a the right wing of many other countries. In that country there's no left wing, there's right and extreme right.

That's really not true. Though I can see how one could get that impression.

[Avariel]

Also take into account that the US left is the equivalent to a the right wing of many other countries. In that country there's no left wing, there's right and extreme right.

That's really not true. Though I can see how one could get that impression.

Well, compared to the rest of the world's idea of "LEFT" a lot of our leftist politicians are still pretty conservative (i.e. our standards on nudity, sex, swearing, appropriate skirt length in PG films, are a little more strict than other parts of the world and no one is really clanging to change these at the top of their lungs.) So government wise, that's pretty true comparatively, and that's what the international community sees, our dirty politicians.

The rest of us are pretty dirty, but in a smelly hippy way, not a corrupt baby killer way!

[Jake]

Oh politicians definitely. That's why I can see why someone could get the wrong impression. I remember during the last presidential primaries some idiots on a message board saying the Democratic front-runners were all "radical leftists." I replied that a bunch of millionaire senators who all support the death penalty and the war on drugs sounds pretty goshdarn Establishment to me and that they wouldn't know a radical leftist if one peed in their soup. I don't remember any friendly responses.

But since the context here seemed to be more cultural (alleged Hollywood liberalism) than governmental, I thought the comment about there being no real Left in this country was off base. Especially as it directly followed a reference to Chomsky who is, after all, not yet an expat.

[Aelfarh]

Also take into account that the US left is the equivalent to a the right wing of many other countries. In that country there's no left wing, there's right and extreme right.

That's really not true. Though I can see how one could get that impression.

Well, compared to the rest of the world's idea of "LEFT" a lot of our leftist politicians are still pretty conservative (i.e. our standards on nudity, sex, swearing, appropriate skirt length in PG films, are a little more strict than other parts of the world and no one is really clanging to change these at the top of their lungs.) So government wise, that's pretty true comparatively, and that's what the international community sees, our dirty politicians.

That's what I was referring to, comparatively the US left wing is a conservative centre at better, if not directly right wing, in comparison with the rest of the world's idea of left.

[DJ Droood]

That's what I was referring to, comparatively the US left wing is a conservative centre at better, if not directly right wing, in comparison with the rest of the world's idea of left.

I would tend to agree....our right wing government in Canada makes Obama look like a hawk, and our left wing actually uses the word "socialist" without fear, as if it wasn't a swear word, so I think your observation has some merit....all I can say, as an outsider, is any country that has a constituency for the likes of Sarah Palin, beyond the position of Parent-Teacher Association member, has lost its political compass.

But how does this relate to Avatar? I think if you make a film in America, beyond a small "indie" film, that wants to make Big Money, you have to pander to your audience...the audience that elected Bush for a second term....so you have to take your soft-left Hollywood ideas and temper them. I think Cameron offers a fairly lunkheaded "anti-war" message...not a hard sell in a country that is just starting to come out of Vietnam II....(that message was popular with 70's audiences too), but he makes sure it is an All-American, white war hero with a "Can Do" spirit that saves the day.

[Aelfarh]

As I said on my blog entry about the film

"It's as far as I know the most expensive film ever, and in the ironies of life is one that preaches anti-violence with a war as main plot, and anti rampant capitalism, with a budget that could feed an entire country, but hollywood is not know for its congruency."