Avatar: The ultimate Druid movie

[Avariel]

As I said on my blog entry about the film

"It's as far as I know the most expensive film ever, and in the ironies of life is one that preaches anti-violence with a war as main plot, and anti rampant capitalism, with a budget that could feed an entire country, but hollywood is not know for its congruency."

LOL that's excellent; we always remark on the huge social fund raising dinner/parties held in big cities in America, where the cost of catering alone could buy bread for innumerable starving people.

I wonder, though, how many people are going to be changed by it, and what that says about us, that we need a 1 billion dollar spectacle to get us to feel anything about the topics presented in the movie, that the facts alone are not enough. (And by us, I mean a general "us", definitely not lumping everyone in the world under that umbrealla)

[Aelfarh]

I wonder, though, how many people are going to be changed by it, and what that says about us, that we need a 1 billion dollar spectacle to get us to feel anything about the topics presented in the movie, that the facts alone are not enough. (And by us, I mean a general "us", definitely not lumping everyone in the world under that umbrealla)

I'm not sure if it will change people. I mean, we (we OBOD) get the message that we are discussing because we are aware of that, avatar or not, but the other people... will they notice it? or just remember how spectacular it was due to the special effects and CGI. (which of course it is)

[DJ Droood]

I wonder, though, how many people are going to be changed by it, and what that says about us, that we need a 1 billion dollar spectacle to get us to feel anything about the topics presented in the movie, that the facts alone are not enough. (And by us, I mean a general "us", definitely not lumping everyone in the world under that umbrealla)

I'm not sure if it will change people. I mean, we (we OBOD) get the message that we are discussing because we are aware of that, avatar or not, but the other people... will they notice it? or just remember how spectacular it was due to the special effects and CGI. (which of course it is)

But again, what is this "message" that people are supposed to get? That humanity is cut off forever from connection to nature, and only futuristic technology can give a glimpse of the divine? That true connection with nature is something alien and unavailable to humans? That the only way humans can approach the "connection" is through fantasy..be it aliens or gods or fairies, or whatever your escapist route of choice is?

[Aelfarh]

For me the message was that greed, rampant capitalism, and militarism takes us away from nature, and that we can connect with nature because the web of life is real and the fact that we don't have a biological USB port as the blue thingies there, doesn't make it less real, and that we can access it if we really want and open our minds to it.

[DJ Droood]

For me the message was that greed, rampant capitalism, and militarism takes us away from nature, and that we can connect with nature because the web of life is real and the fact that we don't have a biological USB port as the blue thingies there, doesn't make it less real, and that we can access it if we really want and open our minds to it.

I just didn't get that last part....all I heard Cameron saying was that you absolutely need the USB port...I didn't see any articulation of the idea that we can "connect" any other way. I think people are relating to the Alien characters and saying..."Yea, I like trees and relate to nature...I'm just like them."...but Cameron is saying "No, you are not and you never will be." I don't see "redemption" in his tale...the Aliens get saved, but not us.

And, btw, I think I already made this point, but for the neo-pagans who think this is somehow "their" movie, Cameron explicitly has one of his characters say something like "this isn't some pagan voodoo...this is real and measurable scientific phenomemon" (or something like that). He is rejecting the whole idea of human spirituality, so I'm unconvinced he or the movie are sympathetic to what many OBODies hold dear.

[Corwen]

Can't you see past a simple cinematic metaphor Mr Drood? It is a common enough device, for abstract concepts (connection to nature for example) to be portrayed on screen or stage by giving them a concrete visible form.

As for the 'Pagan Voodoo' line, that is his way of saying that the connections between things in nature aren't just spiritual esoteric immaterial things to do with spirits and auras, but real, physical, mental and emotional relationships between relating persons.

[Avariel]

Can't you see past a simple cinematic metaphor Mr Drood? It is a common enough device, for abstract concepts (connection to nature for example) to be portrayed on screen or stage by giving them a concrete visible form.

As for the 'Pagan Voodoo' line, that is his way of saying that the connections between things in nature aren't just spiritual esoteric immaterial things to do with spirits and auras, but real, physical, mental and emotional relationships between relating persons.

Yeah I think Corwen hits it spot on; I didn't get the impression that he was bashing pagans, I think, but that he was bashing that perception of animism or pantheism that a lot of non--isms take when someone talks about being "connected" to the universe. (i.e. the gut reaction for a lot of people is "silly hippies" etc.) I think he was commenting on how a lot of people dismiss social and environmental responsibility by choosing to believe it's just some "Sacred stick" (quoting from the movie) that the natives foolishly believe has magic powers, when in reality there's a real measurable interconnection between all living things. I also think that USB sort of connection was a visual device meant to truly display how things really ARE connected, that it's not just in the minds of those who believe in such connections, but that it's "real and measurable" (visible in some fashion.)

But Drood, you do say some interesting things. I was listening to a Cameron interview on XM radio (which was way too exciting, need to calm down, lol) and he was likening it to a cautionary tale, of sorts. If you get a chance to read the full script which is online somewhere, you'll see that in the beginning of the movie we were meant to see a completely developed shot of EArth, which has turned into a supercity, basically, with no landscape uncovered by buildings/skyskrapers, and Jake living in a cramped 16th story apartment. So you get the idea that it's an Earth in the near future where everything that nature would have done for us naturally has been replaced by technology because those natural forces and systems have been destroyed. It really sort of hits home then when Jake first sees Pandora, because he's never seen anything green or growing before (And this is why it's signifigant when he eats the alien fruit, because he's never had real fruit before.) So you get the idea that...this deep interwoven connection between living things on Pandora that's developed into something physical may have been the way that Earth was once, and through our folly we lost connection with it and then because of that lack of connection we destroyed it, because it transformed from living spiritual things to just sticks and rocks.

You don't get a strong sense of this in the movie, however, although I knew where he was going with it the first time I noticed the natives "plugged into" their horses. So because I understood that connection existing in perhaps a different sense in our world, when I saw the physical device being used I knew where he was going with it, and he suggested as much in the interview. It was a way to simplify a concept for many people who haven't ever though of a connection before in a way that was instantly and easily understandable (and much more real, because the majority of people live in whats physical and thus wouldn't understand it if they simply said, "We're connected in our minds!" without having that physical braid to plug them into each other.)

As for whether or not it'll change people: this is interesting. http://www.popcrunch.com/avatar-depression/

[DJ Droood]

So you get the idea that...this deep interwoven connection between living things on Pandora that's developed into something physical may have been the way that Earth was once, and through our folly we lost connection with it and then because of that lack of connection we destroyed it, because it transformed from living spiritual things to just sticks and rocks.

I think I did get that..it is the fall of Eve and Adam. He is offering us the end result of our original sins...we will "be as gods, knowing good and evil." Cameron is the Cecil B. DeMille of our time, I will grant you that.

It was a way to simplify a concept for many people who haven't ever though of a connection before in a way that was instantly and easily understandable

I hope he dumbs it down more for me in the sequel! So far I have seen it once, will see it again in 3-D, will see the sequel, both in regular and 3-D...may buy some merchandise, I'm not sure you....but I can't deny Mr. Cameron is a genius.

[Twig]

If it changes people's minds about important ideas, maybe it will be money well-spent?

BTW, it's been so long since I've been to a movie that I was shocked when I purchased tickets online. (I'm going to see it on Monday). $9.50 for a "senior" ticket, and no price-break for a matinée. Yeah, this movie is making lots of money! If only it would be put to good use... James Cameron could send a boatload of money to Haiti..

[Florian]

Hey Twig, you shall not complain: I paid 19$ for the 3D version in our cinema

[DJ Droood]

If it changes people's minds about important ideas, maybe it will be money well-spent?

BTW, it's been so long since I've been to a movie that I was shocked when I purchased tickets online. (I'm going to see it on Monday). $9.50 for a "senior" ticket, and no price-break for a matinée. Yeah, this movie is making lots of money! If only it would be put to good use... James Cameron could send a boatload of money to Haiti..

I went on $5.50 Tuesday, and I think I will wait for it to hit the second run theater to see it in 3-d, if it goes there. I was entertained, and you are correct...if it has people thinking and discussing, it is worth the ticket.

[Aelfarh]

I was in Mexico, so I paid $90 MXP, about £4.5 for an IMAX 3D one (aren't you all jealous LOL)

And I agree with Corwen on his last post (again a lot of agreements corwen, this round is on me ) I think DJ, you are staying on the superficial or literal view of the film. I don't see Cameron denying the possibility of us, humans, to connect to nature, just putting it in a more literal sense in Pandora.

As for the "this is not pagan voodoo" I also think that he refers that the connection with earth is not just the new agy one, but that we are all part of an ecosystem, in a scientific way, and as corwen said "real, physical, mental and emotional relationships"

[DJ Droood]

I think DJ, you are staying on the superficial or literal view of the film. I don't see Cameron denying the possibility of us, humans, to connect to nature, just putting it in a more literal sense in Pandora.

I think yous all are ignoring the history of "aliens" as metaphor in film, and I don't think Cameron is breaking convention here.. Aliens, in film language, always denote "the Other", usually the Other we fear. In the 50's, they were a metaphor for communism and especially the insidiousness of communist ideology. (Invasion of the Body Snatchers) They are our fear of nuclear attack, They can be fear of a disease, or more recently, a projection of our guilt (District 9 - apartheid) and now Avatar..imperialist guilt wrapped up in some good old fashioned Genesis mythology.

But maybe you are right, and Cameron is making some sort of profound environmental and spiritual statement, beyond...don''t be mean to the locals and don't pave paradise and put up a parking lot.


oh, and what about the motivation of the main hero guy (I forget the characters name)..totally selfish....me me me...I can walk, I can have cool, exotic sensations (tasting the fruit Avariel mentiond...the forbidden fruit?? A little Adam/Eve-y, no??), I get the hot Alien chick and have 12 foot tall USB sex....there is very little "connecting" going on, except to his Id.

[Aelfarh]

I get the hot Alien chick and have 12 foot tall USB sex....

You are going to make myself redundant if my boss hear me laugh out loud with things like that.

[Corwen]

I think I did get that..it is the fall of Eve and Adam. He is offering us the end result of our original sins...we will "be as gods, knowing good and evil." Cameron is the Cecil B. DeMille of our time, I will grant you that.

I don't see any parralells with Christian theology. It is not original sin, or Adam and Eve, that Cameron is concerned with (original sin in Christianity is built into us as 'fallen' beings, and we can only be redeemed by God's grace). Cameron is concerned with the modern 'sins' of self centredness and materialism which our current society regards as virtues.

I think yous all are ignoring the history of "aliens" as metaphor in film, and I don't think Cameron is breaking convention here.. Aliens, in film language, always denote "the Other", usually the Other we fear.

I disagree, aliens often represent various human or transhuman qualities abstracted and projected onto another. These qualities can be positive or negative and through the story we can examine their role and the effect those qualities have on a society. Look at the Ferengi in Star Trek, who obviously represent human acquisitiveness and thus their capitalist society is a satire on our own. Likewise Klingons represent the warrior urge, Vulcans the logical. In other franchises aliens have recently represented God/spirituality (2001 Space Odyssey, Fifth Element), Communism/Totalitarianism (Battlestar Galactica, Starship Troopers), 'Child-like innocence' (ET), Implacable Justice (Day the Earth Stood Still), etc etc.

They can be fear of a disease, or more recently, a projection of our guilt (District 9 - apartheid) and now Avatar..imperialist guilt wrapped up in some good old fashioned Genesis mythology.

I agree there is a recent trend (since the 70s) for us to sympathise with the Aliens who are far from all-powerful and fearful 'others', and which instead represent a downtrodden part of ourselves, current films with this motif include Avatar and District 9. I don't think this is a negative trend, District 9 seems like a clever way to get white American teenagers to sympathise with the plight of third world refugees, or imagine what it would feel like to live in an apartheid type society. I don't see explorations of collective guilt being negative.

oh, and what about the motivation of the main hero guy (I forget the characters name)..totally selfish....me me me...I can walk, I can have cool, exotic sensations (tasting the fruit Avariel mentiond...the forbidden fruit?? A little Adam/Eve-y, no??), I get the hot Alien chick and have 12 foot tall USB sex....there is very little "connecting" going on, except to his Id.

There are compensations for being a tree hugging hippy! On a serious level though being a grounded connected person, at home in your skin and your world, is likely to lead to better sex.

[DJ Droood]

I was just doing some googling to see how much of the weekend reciepts the Druid Eco-Prophet, James Cameron, would be giving to Haitian relief. I couldn't find that information, but here is an absolutely fascinating review of Avatar from a Haitian perspective:

If James Cameron was indeed doing what he said he wanted to do and writing from the indigenous point of view, if I took him seriously, than I would not have to see how Grace, the white woman's life was made to be so important that in the middle to their grieving of all that they had lost from the shock and awe attack upon their village, that HER HEALING was the priority. She's so important to Jake, the whole village that's just lost its beloved king and perhaps thousands upon thousands of their people, take time to value THIS LIFE above all else and sit in unison to chants for her wellbeing! But alas, Dr. Grace dies. But wait, all is not lost. Her life is so unique and valuable, that her lifeforce gets to be DESERVING enough to join into the collective Navi's Goddess (Eywa) vibration.

This is such an obvious white fantasy in a long, long line of the noble white savior films. After the Sigourney Weaver character's Hollywood demonization of Haiti's sacred way, her demeaning "Pagan Vodun" comment, it would have been poetic justice if Cameron truly wanted to speak from "the others" point of view, if the good doctor's spirit had NOT gone directly into the blissful Navi Eywa collective soul but spent some time in some Christian purgatory or some such place!. For that privilege too reminded me of the foreign Vodun converts who come into Haitian culture and claim our ancestors, priesthood and to be Vodun spirit masters in just one generation of submission.

...more....

http://www.belfim.com/blog.php/883

[Avariel]

and have 12 foot tall USB sex

I may have been single for too long at this point, but that sounds just fine by me

[Explorer]

I liked the movie, a visual masterpiece, that made up for the thin and predictable story. Too much holywood style violence at the end, that took away some credibility points, that hour could have been beter spend. If Avatar II has less violence, more background, more nature and more sex, then I will certainly go see it.
Interesting how everybody reads something else in the film, christian, ecological, spiritual, historical. it seems to act as a mirror in that sense. And perhaps that makes it a good movie also.

[Corwen]

more sex, then I will certainly go see it.

It would be a shame if it couldn't hold onto its 12A certificate.

[DJ Droood]

Interesting how everybody reads something else in the film, christian, ecological, spiritual, historical. it seems to act as a mirror in that sense. And perhaps that makes it a good movie also.

Yes. I think it's a good movie, perhaps great because it holds up that mirror. So many movies do nothing. It is like looking at The Mona Lisa and saying "she's smiling like that because she has been touched by awen."